[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[Siptah]

IIRC, the reason the Pueblo didn't want to be represented was because the leader Firaxis wanted, Po-pe or something, was revered by them, as are just about any other good Pueblo leader choice. So it wasn't necessarily about sticking it to European-Americans, but rather that the nature of inclusion in the game violated their cultural values.

So it doesn't necessarily preclude any other Native American group from being included in the game. Remember, they added the Shoshone in response to not getting the Pueblo approval.

And the Pueblo did appear in American Conquest for example. I don't remember if they were in the campaign however, or just in the skirmish mode.

And there are some South American groups that really don't want to appear anywhere. I think Microsoft clashed with them over the translation of Windows into their language for example.

 

[Guandao]

And the Pueblo did appear in American Conquest for example. I don't remember if they were in the campaign however, or just in the skirmish mode.

And there are some South American groups that really don't want to appear anywhere. I think Microsoft clashed with them over the translation of Windows into their language for example.

That was the Mapuche. The issue was that they haven't decided on the standardized spelling of their language yet.

I think all of the Amerindian languages will go extinct in this century, so getting fluent speakers for them to voice the leaders will become harder. Same goes for most of the African languages.

I believe Montezuma I's voice actor in this game is not a fluent speaker of Nahuatl. He's Mexican, and probably only speaks Spanish. And according to a Youtube comment, Amanitore's voice actress wasn't a fluent speaker of Nubian. She probably knows Arabic.

 

[God of Kings]

That was the Mapuche. The issue was that they haven't decided on the standardized spelling of their language yet.

I think all of the Amerindian languages will go extinct in this century, so getting fluent speakers for them to voice the leaders will become harder. Same goes for most of the African languages.

I believe Montezuma I's voice actor in this game is not a fluent speaker of Nahuatl. He's Mexican, and probably only speaks Spanish. And according to a Youtube comment, Amanitore's voice actress wasn't a fluent speaker of Nubian. She probably knows Arabic.

Latin may be an extinct language (in theory), but we have an extremely good understanding of what it sounds like. The same can be said about Ancient Greek, Sanskrit, Old Norse, and Anglo-Saxon.

Once, @Morningcalm discussed with Augustus's voice actor from Civ V in the Latin Discussion forum (http://latind.com) and we learned so much from him.

The problem is with the extinction of less attested languages.

 

[Absolution]

While having a 2nd Spanish leader by now (before Rome, US or Germany, provided the HRE focus of the current one) is odd, my 2 cents on how the Isabella option fits the new mechanics

- Reconquista leading to a Golden Age for spain (funding to finance Columbus expedition, plus hardened soliders for subsequent conquest)
- Focus on unity of the country by religion (also tied to Reconquista) - banding together the several Iberian kingdoms under the cross, may be tied to achieving loyalty by religion.

So, Isabella can tie quite easily with a Reconquista LA that focuses in two of the new expansion systems:
- extra golden age points by conquering cities of different religion and converting them to your own (ties quite nicely with Conquistador UU, also),
--- trow in, if you want to add additional discovery favour, extra golden age point for naval achievements (tough this could be also minor a Spain-wide boost, btw, addded to Treasure Fleets).
- and, also add improved loyalty for cities matching "civ" religion (Capital city religion?) and decreased loyalty for cities of different religion (bonus+malus UA)

Here you have some nice abilities tied to Isabella achievements and character, that fit quite well with the new concepts.

Why would Isabella be the Spanish leader to represent the Reconquista?
Other than being not that distant from Phillip's period, she was not a great reconquistador queen.
She was only there to finish the job at Granada.

Alternative options for Reconquista representation:
Ferdinand I of Leon
El Cid
Peter III of Aragon
Ferdinand III of Castile.

Putin will not be in Civ VI outside of mods. Why? He's still alive.

Two currently living leaders I'd accept in future civ games - Vladimir Putin and Manmohad Singh.

Someone on Reddit actually posted a portion of an interview with Firaxis. It confirmed that the 9th leader is actually an alternate for an existing civ.

That's interesting.
China, please.

Who might be the next civs in R&F?

The Inca - Huayna Capac. A mountainbased civ should be in the game.

A wild drop - What about Tibet?
Not totally lenient to the R&F features (though the modern is...), but can really fit for the game's emphasis on religion.

 

[JacquesBquick]

A wild drop - What about Tibet?
Not totally lenient to the R&F features (though the modern is...), but can really fit for the game's emphasis on religion.

Do they market Civilization in China? if so that's an absolute no-go. China will never allow any media product across their shores that acknowledges tibet as independent or separate from china in anyway. its messed up but its life. media companies oblige because they want access to that market.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

I'd love Tibet (and have been saying so for a long time) but it's never going to happen.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Nepal would be a good substitute for Tibet, and then we get Gurkha UUs.

 

[Siptah]

Nepal would be a good substitute for Tibet, and then we get Gurkha UUs.

I wouldn't accept them as a substitute. It's only a substitute for modern Westerners that feel inspired by Buddhism as a philosophy instead of a religion and go there for some time.
However, Nepal could easily be a civ in it's own right. The have a long and interesting history (which admittedly almost every nation has) and could lead to a rather unique gameplay. I can see them being a surprise civ in expansion two.

 

[Absolution]

Do they market Civilization in China? if so that's an absolute no-go. China will never allow any media product across their shores that acknowledges tibet as independent or separate from china in anyway. its messed up but its life. media companies oblige because they want access to that market.

They do, with a Chinese translated version, and once they added Taizong as an exclusive third Chinese leader for the Chinese version of the game (Civ 4).

Then that's a pity, bending historical justice about Tibet in a world wide game for such reasons...

 

[Absolution]

Nepal would be a good substitute for Tibet, and then we get Gurkha UUs.

If we're going for non Islamo/pan-Indian-nationalist civilizations in the Indian subcontinent, Nepal is just among the smallest.
Bengal, Punjab, Tamil, Magadha and much more are welcome if we wish to finally separate India.
But yes, for the mountain desire, it's Nepal, or maybe Assam, that fits best.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

And the Pueblo did appear in American Conquest for example. I don't remember if they were in the campaign however, or just in the skirmish mode.

And there are some South American groups that really don't want to appear anywhere. I think Microsoft clashed with them over the translation of Windows into their language for example.

There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone form using and/or depicting the Pueblo in any media. The people themselves are just very guarded about it and refused almost all requests. Although they are not vocal about it, the only reason Friaxis even found out, was that the only people that speak the original language are the elders who are the most guarded with the images of their ancestors. So Friaxis would have had to 'fake' the language and (now) knowingly go against a people's request to not use them. Honestly it is likely the access to a native speaker that was the biggest barrier, as the Pueblo's protection of their images is far more "don't condone" than "protest".

 

[Zaarin]

The Creek may have some very small recognition outside the US, but the Muscogee
definitely are not well-known.

...The Creek and Muscogee are the same people. Personally I'd still prefer the Choctaw led by Pushmataha. The Creek/Muscogee were the most powerful tribe in the region, but selecting a leader is problematic. Their most prominent leaders sold out their interests to US encroachment, while the leaders of the Red Sticks never led the Creek Confederacy as a whole.

'

I wonder why the Iroquois would allow themselves to be represented in the game. Are they mostly of European descent nowadays?
I found Civ5's Iroquois and Hiawatha to be generic and boring. One of my least favorite Civs to play. Pretty weak in ability also.

The amount of Native American/white admixture north of Mexico is greatly exaggerated. Yes, there are still many "full-blooded" Native Americans, even in the East, and a lot fewer white Americans with Native ancestry than believe they do. As strongly as I want someone new and would rather see the Powhatan fill the same diplomatic niche, I have to grant that the Iroquois are just begging for a clever mechanic related to R&F's new alliances. Also, the Iroquois have been featured in many games, often with strong involvement from the Iroquois tribal leadership: see Age of Empires 3 or Assassin's Creed 3 (the only AC game I tried and hated, but I wanted to support a game that put in so much work to actually portray a Native American tribe with such devotion to historical accuracy and respect to the wishes of the tribe [they initially intended to include medicine masks, but removed them when the Mohawk tribal council asked them not to depict their sacred artifacts--that really gained Ubisoft some respect from me]).

 

[Guandao]

...The Creek and Muscogee are the same people. Personally I'd still prefer the Choctaw led by Pushmataha. The Creek/Muscogee were the most powerful tribe in the region, but selecting a leader is problematic. Their most prominent leaders sold out their interests to US encroachment, while the leaders of the Red Sticks never led the Creek Confederacy as a whole.


The amount of Native American/white admixture north of Mexico is greatly exaggerated. Yes, there are still many "full-blooded" Native Americans, even in the East, and a lot fewer white Americans with Native ancestry than believe they do. As strongly as I want someone new and would rather see the Powhatan fill the same diplomatic niche, I have to grant that the Iroquois are just begging for a clever mechanic related to R&F's new alliances. Also, the Iroquois have been featured in many games, often with strong involvement from the Iroquois tribal leadership: see Age of Empires 3 or Assassin's Creed 3 (the only AC game I tried and hated, but I wanted to support a game that put in so much work to actually portray a Native American tribe with such devotion to historical accuracy and respect to the wishes of the tribe [they initially intended to include medicine masks, but removed them when the Mohawk tribal council asked them not to depict their sacred artifacts--that really gained Ubisoft some respect from me]).

I never played AC3. My siblings did. I only played AC2 and Brotherhood.

Could it be possible that Firaxis will avoid putting in the Civs which were in Gods and Kings? So no Ethiopia, Maya, Austria, Byzantines, Dutch, Carthage, Huns, Celts, Swedes. I know a lot of people are speculating that the Dutch are in, but perhaps they will stay a City-State for a little longer.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I never played AC3. My siblings did. I only played AC2 and Brotherhood.

Could it be possible that Firaxis will avoid putting in the Civs which were in Gods and Kings? So no Ethiopia, Maya, Austria, Byzantines, Dutch, Carthage, Huns, Celts, Swedes. I know a lot of people are speculating that the Dutch are in, but perhaps they will stay a City-State for a little longer.

I think they've intentionally avoided making Civ V DLC civs into Civ VI DLC civs*, but I doubt that theory will extend to expansions, at least not totally. They probably would not want to make a completely similar lineup, but there might be a little cross-over.

*That theory being they want to avoid having customers feel like they've bought the same DLC twice. Obviously, it's not exactly the same DLC, but you might feel vaguely put-off if you bought the Polynesia DLC for one iteration and then bought it again for the next iteration.

 

[DJ_Tanner]

'

I wonder why the Iroquois would allow themselves to be represented in the game. Are they mostly of European descent nowadays?
I found Civ5's Iroquois and Hiawatha to be generic and boring. One of my least favorite Civs to play. Pretty weak in ability also.

They are a cultural group of people, it isn't like you walk up to the Iroquois house and ask if they mind if you use them in a game. I mean did you get a survey in the mail asking if it was OK fro Friaxis to use the American people in their game? (Again the Pueblo thing was different simply because there are only like 5 people that speak the native language and its easier to get 5 people on the same page.) The Iroquois are just a people, their representation in books, television, and media is out of their hands. Now, of course, they could, more collectively, be opposed to a particular depiction of their ancestors, but that is a whole different ball of wax.

 

[Guandao]

They are a cultural group of people, it isn't like you walk up to the Iroquois house and ask if they mind if you use them in a game. I mean did you get a survey in the mail asking if it was OK fro Friaxis to use the American people in their game? (Again the Pueblo thing was different simply because there are only like 5 people that speak the native language and its easier to get 5 people on the same page.) The Iroquois are just a people, their representation in books, television, and media is out of their hands. Now, of course, they could, more collectively, be opposed to a particular depiction of their ancestors, but that is a whole different ball of wax.

There are more Tewa speakers than 5. I'm sure of that.

They did get one Mohawk speaker to provide the voice acting for Hiawatha.

 

[Ferocitus]

...The Creek and Muscogee are the same people.

Thanks for that!
When I took 1st year Anthropology, we didn't study any early North American
cultures. Chagnon's "The Fierce People" was the main text for non-Australian
cultures.
I guess the Yanomami aren't likely to bob up ahead of the Incas or Mayans in the
expansion.

 

[Guandao]

Thanks for that!
When I took 1st year Anthropology, we didn't study any early North American
cultures. Chagnon's "The Fierce People" was the main text for non-Australian
cultures.
I guess the Yanomami aren't likely to bob up ahead of the Incas or Mayans in the
expansion.

The Yanomami weren't contacted by outsiders until the 20th century, so they are a poor choice for a Civ. Plus the lack of a leader.

 

[Ferocitus]

The Yanomami weren't contacted by outsiders until the 20th century, so they are a poor choice for a Civ. Plus the lack of a leader.

I know.
But I'd love to see how Firaxis would depict one of their elders, hallucinating
and with greenish snot pouring out of his nose after someone blasted him with
ebene.

 

[Meluhhan]

First post here. Been a long time lurker and I enjoy the passionate discussions happening around in this forum.

I just wanted to point out that if the Mongols are in then Kublai Khan also thematically fits in with Hojo Tokimune. They do form a pair of leaders who were historically antagonistic to each other a la Tomyris and Cyrus.

A scenario about the attempted Mongol invasions of Japan would be great. Hojo Tokimune's leader ability name 'Divine Wind' also alludes to it.