[R&F] Based on the new features - which civilizations and leaders should be introduced in R&F?

[Naktis]

Why nobody mentions Soviet Union ? Moscow still free start Location , in video we see fall of Berlin Wall which is considered fall of USSR. Also they wont be considered as Russia (remember Macedon and Greece).
And we still had chance to get Catherine in future , as her starting city would be Yakaterinburg.

 

[indradiva]

The problem with Soviet Union is that Moscow is in the city list of Russia, and many other Russian cities would also appear on SU's city list, although many of them had different names in SU times. Also SU would take space of many other civs and cultures from its region, making it hard to add them in future. As for Catherine her starting city is still St. Petersburg.

 

[Uberfrog]

Why nobody mentions Soviet Union ? Moscow still free start Location , in video we see fall of Berlin Wall which is considered fall of USSR. Also they wont be considered as Russia (remember Macedon and Greece).
And we still had chance to get Catherine in future , as her starting city would be Yakaterinburg.

I could see a possible Soviet leader for Russia with the new mechanics, but not as a standalone civ. I don't think it's even comparable to Macedon and Greece - at least Macedon was a separate kingdom, albeit a Hellenised one, that invaded and incorporated the rest of Greece proper into its Empire. The Russian Empire became the Soviet Union after the revolution, and then after its fall the core and politically dominant territory became the Russian Federation. While the USSR isn't represented in any of its attributes, for Civilizational purposes "The Russians" suitably covers all three states.

And Yekaterinburg (named after Peter's wife, not Catherine the Great) was never more than a regional administrative centre.

 

[Brianstorm]

Why nobody mentions Soviet Union ? Moscow still free start Location , in video we see fall of Berlin Wall which is considered fall of USSR. Also they wont be considered as Russia (remember Macedon and Greece).
And we still had chance to get Catherine in future , as her starting city would be Yakaterinburg.

Do they have an obscure female leader to shoehorn in?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Anton Strenger said that 'the whole Firaxis team has worked hard for the expansion, artists, coders, Firaxis Lawyers ...'

I wonder what it means, maybe they have contacted some native people to include them in the game.

Or they are ready to issue cease and desist orders to media and youtube people who break the NDA.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

My first guess was copyright lawyers.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Hello! Second post here, and I'm surprised that nobody took seriously the idea of Switzerland as a possible civ. Yes, even myself highly doubt about Switzerland ever be an official civ, but let me explain why I think Switzerland would be one of the best civ who would suit the new mechanics.

Governors : Switzerland is basically a bunch of independant cantons which are themselves a bunch of independant cities. Each one is governing itself, having its own agendas and own politics.

Loyalty : as I said, Switzerland is a bunch of independant whatever, but it's still a very tight country, where people of different culture are united under the same banner. A lot of people were arguing about Canada : indeed, it's a very large country and all provinces are very loyal to the head of state. But Switzerland, if it's not very large, is much more parcelled between culture : 4 different languages, different constitutions, but despite that they are loyal to the Confederation. The system of loyalty seems to me suiting the spirit of Switzerland much more than Canada or any big empire who just crish provinces.
Plus, once the first canton formed the beginning of the Swizz Confederation, some canton decided by themselves to join : a capacity to gain independant free cities more easily?

Emergencies/Alliances : Switzerland create itself on an emergencie. Cantons allied themselves to resist Austria and HRE in a kind of emergencies. If there is a great threat, Switzerland is able to gather forces around her to resist.

Dark/Golden/Heroic Ages : the most tricky, but itchy in my mind. As I see it, in the extension, every empire will be slaloming between dark and heroic ages, or will try to stay in golden ages as long as possible. Normal ages will no longer exist. And what if Switzerland will have bonuses specifically in Normal Ages, representing the fact that the Confederation is, since its independance, one of the most boring... hem, regular state in the world ?

The spike UU will be also perfect for them, and the unique building could be the Swiss Vault (replacing the Bank), with a special power like prohibiting the commercial routes from/to this city to be plundered, even in war (representing the fascinating capacity of Switzerland to make money even in the darkest moments of History, especially History of their neighbors).

 

[luigilime]

theres still that hint from one of the artits of the game that made a sketch of a female warrior figure, could that mean joan of arc?

 

[Siptah]

Hello! Second post here, and I'm surprised that nobody took seriously the idea of Switzerland as a possible civ. Yes, even myself highly doubt about Switzerland ever be an official civ, but let me explain why I think Switzerland would be one of the best civ who would suit the new mechanics.

Governors : Switzerland is basically a bunch of independant cantons which are themselves a bunch of independant cities. Each one is governing itself, having its own agendas and own politics.

Loyalty : as I said, Switzerland is a bunch of independant whatever, but it's still a very tight country, where people of different culture are united under the same banner. A lot of people were arguing about Canada : indeed, it's a very large country and all provinces are very loyal to the head of state. But Switzerland, if it's not very large, is much more parcelled between culture : 4 different languages, different constitutions, but despite that they are loyal to the Confederation. The system of loyalty seems to me suiting the spirit of Switzerland much more than Canada or any big empire who just crish provinces.
Plus, once the first canton formed the beginning of the Swizz Confederation, some canton decided by themselves to join : a capacity to gain independant free cities more easily?

Emergencies/Alliances : Switzerland create itself on an emergencie. Cantons allied themselves to resist Austria and HRE in a kind of emergencies. If there is a great threat, Switzerland is able to gather forces around her to resist.

Dark/Golden/Heroic Ages : the most tricky, but itchy in my mind. As I see it, in the extension, every empire will be slaloming between dark and heroic ages, or will try to stay in golden ages as long as possible. Normal ages will no longer exist. And what if Switzerland will have bonuses specifically in Normal Ages, representing the fact that the Confederation is, since its independance, one of the most boring... hem, regular state in the world ?

The spike UU will be also perfect for them, and the unique building could be the Swiss Vault (replacing the Bank), with a special power like prohibiting the commercial routes from/to this city to be plundered, even in war (representing the fascinating capacity of Switzerland to make money even in the darkest moments of History, especially History of their neighbors).

I did consider Switzerland, obviously, and think it is indeed fitting for some of the new mechanics. However, it's not a very important country for history of Europe or the world - that's however not a definite reason not to include them, since quite some inclusion aren't either.
To add to your ideas: Switzerland is even today reducing loyalty in the neighboring provinces, it seems unlikely that any provinces will join them any more (last time someone official tried, the Swiss declined). It's even imaginable that Switzerland wouldn't be able to declare war and just 'conquers' by loyalty to make them play rather unique. And then there is of course the unique form of Democracy and executive government Switzerland has that could be included in some way (which, in my opinion, makes it one of the more interesting countries we have in the world today ).

theres still that hint from one of the artits of the game that made a sketch of a female warrior figure, could that mean joan of arc?

I consider it the most powerful hint for any leaders so far, along with the Korean queen.

 

[Josephias]

Indeed, as per the two post above, Switzerland might make for a great "by my own rules" Civ like Venice, with banned military expansion (Neutrality), while still being able to use military for defense or to support allies without territorial benefit - altough maybe other forms (mercenaries). And with reinforced bonuses for diplomacy and "cultural" and "religious" war.

Much like venice was banned from "exploration" expansion to focus in military and economic war.

I'd rather have these uncinventional civs as DLC instead of x-pac content, however (make more sense as extra tweaks of the game, an it woluld be also easier to "ban" them if you want a more standard game.

 

[Absolution]

I think a solution might be to simply exclude a city-state if its parent civ is present in the game. For example, disable Amsterdam as a city-state if the Dutch are in the game. Or add Berlin as a city-state and simply disable it if Germany is enabled.

That's great, but I'm afraid you'll thus end up with seeing Mohenjo-Daro, La Venta and Hong Kong much too frequently, since many other have high chances of being disabled.

At any case, my view is that city-states in the game should represent cities which have actually functioned as city-state (Hong Kong, Singapore, Ehnunna, Ugarit, Pisa, Chalcedon).
That way we will not have that problem in future additional content.

Really, the bonuses are unique, but the vast majority of city-state bonuses are generic enough that they could apply to another choice. Like, I live in Toronto and don't understand what about Toronto lets factory production spread further (is it because Canada is very spread out?). Seoul's is very generic as well. There would be no trouble moving those to another city.

Even if it does not describe Toronto's characters, this is still a specific bonus, that might not be a good slot for every industrial city to fill.

Leader and the capital don't match necessarily, and Seoul has always been the Korean capital in the game. And I don't think it is very difficult to replace most SCs in the game, their bonuses are not always inspired by the city they're tied to.

A wonderful feature that has been introduced in Civ 6 is that now leaders reflect an era of the a certain civilization's history, with city-lists and unique abilities that should join along.
Barbarossa's Germany is the High Middle Ages' Holy Roman Empire, with the Frankish capital Aachen still appearing as a capital in his city-list.
Saladin's Arabia is the counter-Crusader Ayyubid Sultanate, based in Cairo. So as it turns out, Arabia's Civ 6 capital was not even in Arabia.

Antwerp is a good candidate too. Second largest harbor of Europe and very close to the Dutch, though Antwerp could also be a Dutch city name in the game.

Hope they make it a Dutch city and won't stay limited to modern boundaries.

The CN Tower is just a plain generic tower.

The Chateau Frontenac is a specific wonder, and they clearly thought about this well (what i encourage). The wonder itself is a far better choice than the CN tower. Also in CIV VI (especially the DLC), wonders from a certain region are often added to a civilization in that region that make it into the game. That made me think that Canada is being added along this wonder (and possibly natural wonder). The DLC also centered about all the regions in the world, except the America's, so they will most likely have some civs at least. If they just want to add a wonder, then they would have chosen for something different perhaps, since the Taj Mahal or Macchu Pichu are not seen as new wonders (what is okay, and in case of Taj Mahal even speaks for a Mughal DLC / civ in a later expansion, since they preserve it for later). The Chateau Frontenac isn't an obvious choice when it comes to wonders, and that's why I (and some other people) think Canada will be a new civ. We know that Firaxis will give us some odd choices. Canada could be one of them (and targets a huge playerbase).

"wonders from a certain region are often added to a civilization in that region that make it into the game." - Thinking about it, can this wonder come along with adding one of the Canadian Native peoples?
The Chateau Frontenac could be somehow related to it, especially if they add a new scenario, featuring England, France and the Native Canadians, which may also involve European Governors in North America.
The Canadian Natural Wonder also goes along this theory.

What do you think? This is an alternative way to explain the Canada hints without Canada being included as a civilization.

 

[Rosty K]

So as it turns out, Arabia's Civ 6 capital was not even in Arabia

Well, that's often happened to the Khalifate's capital anyway. Baghdad is also not in Arabia, for example.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Indeed, as per the two post above, Switzerland might make for a great "by my own rules" Civ like Venice, with banned military expansion (Neutrality), while still being able to use military for defense or to support allies without territorial benefit - altough maybe other forms (mercenaries). And with reinforced bonuses for diplomacy and "cultural" and "religious" war.

Much like venice was banned from "exploration" expansion to focus in military and economic war.

I'd rather have these uncinventional civs as DLC instead of x-pac content, however (make more sense as extra tweaks of the game, an it woluld be also easier to "ban" them if you want a more standard game.

Venice was not in a DLC and I doubt that a lot of players were complaining when they see Venice as an AI in the game.

And, as Siptah said, it'll be amazing to see a civ unable to declare war. A "by-my-own-rules" as you said. With, maybe, a penalty for civ attacking Switzerland (maybe, each time a nation attack Switzerland, an emergency is automatically created, or whatever/however the system of emergency works), as the war weariness being superior for civs attacking Gandhi.

Some people say that Switzerland is not a good candidate to be a major civ in Civilization because they are not very influential. But, by my little europeanish point of view, they are as influent, if not more, than Australia (already a major civ) or Canada (a strong candidate). They were the core of Europe, there mercenaries participate in almost all, wars, they were the siege of the Society of Nations, they are the siege of the International Postal Organization... In the collectif mind, Switzerland is an archetype, a symbol of neutrality, greed and democracy. Plus, they are a really unique system (government, culture...), and they will be a unique civ to play and, probably, one of the funniest.

ONE A SIDE NOTE

Is it me, or there is no Italian city-State in the vanilla game ? For me, it's pretty peculiar. Think about it : the vast majority of city-states who had a strong influence on their neighbors were, for a large part, italians : Venice, Genoa, Ancona, Amalfi, pisa (mercantile), Vatican City (religious), Florence, Milan (cultural), Bologna (scientific, because of their incredible university)... The only I can't think about is industrial and militaristic but because it's not the part that interest me the most in Italy History.
For me, the fact that there is not a single italian city-state in the vanilla game is a STRONG HINT about Italy being a major Civ. Perhaps not in R&F but in the next. I bet my Forbidden City on it.

(plus, it bugged me that in Vanilla game city-State represent minor civ and not real city-state/little state. I loved Monaco, Singapour and all... But Seoul represent just Korea, Amsterdam Netherlands, and even Jakarta was representing Indonesia. I preferred civ 5 where city-states were really city-states


Rhaaa ! Absolution just say it before me !).

 

[pgm123]

The Ottomans don't, but their predecessors, the Seljuk Turks do.

That's true. I do think the Ottomans are more likely that the Seljuks. Maybe they'd just go with "Turks," which could theoretically cover the Gokturks as well.

IIRC, the reason the Pueblo didn't want to be represented was because the leader Firaxis wanted, Po-pe or something, was revered by them, as are just about any other good Pueblo leader choice. So it wasn't necessarily about sticking it to an American Corporate videogame company, but rather that the nature of inclusion in the game violated their cultural values.

So it doesn't really preclude any other Native American group from being included in the game. Remember, they added the Shoshone in response to not getting the Pueblo approval.

I believe they didn't want Pope used because he's a quasi-religious figure. But there also were apparently issues with the Pueblo considering their language to be sacred so they didn't want it included in a game. I'd imagine other nations would have the same issue.

 

[God of Kings]

Indeed, as per the two post above, Switzerland might make for a great "by my own rules" Civ like Venice, with banned military expansion (Neutrality), while still being able to use military for defense or to support allies without territorial benefit - altough maybe other forms (mercenaries). And with reinforced bonuses for diplomacy and "cultural" and "religious" war.

Much like venice was banned from "exploration" expansion to focus in military and economic war.

I'd rather have these uncinventional civs as DLC instead of x-pac content, however (make more sense as extra tweaks of the game, an it woluld be also easier to "ban" them if you want a more standard game.

If we were to use Endless Legend analogy, Switzerland could be like the Roving Clans of Civ VI: unable to declare war directly, but can hire mercenaries to conduct false flag attacks.

 

[Uberfrog]

Is it me, or there is no Italian city-State in the vanilla game ? For me, it's pretty peculiar. Think about it : the vast majority of city-states who had a strong influence on their neighbors were, for a large part, italians : Venice, Genoa, Ancona, Amalfi, pisa (mercantile), Vatican City (religious), Florence, Milan (cultural), Bologna (scientific, because of their incredible university)... The only I can't think about is industrial and militaristic but because it's not the part that interest me the most in Italy History.
For me, the fact that there is not a single italian city-state in the vanilla game is a STRONG HINT about Italy being a major Civ. Perhaps not in R&F but in the next. I bet my Forbidden City on it.

This was the source of much speculation about the DLCs, and is still very possible for a future civ.

But the whole city-state argument doesn't really provide much of a clue. There's a very good chance Korea is coming in Rise & Fall, and so they will have to replace Seoul as a city-state. They already replaced Jakarta to add Indonesia. I do not see why they couldn't have just included Venice and Florence and then replaced them later...

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

This was the source of much speculation about the DLCs, and is still very possible for a future civ.

But the whole city-state argument doesn't really provide much of a clue. There's a very good chance Korea is coming in Rise & Fall, and so they will have to replace Seoul as a city-state. They already replaced Jakarta to add Indonesia. I do not see why they couldn't have just included Venice and Florence and then replaced them later...

I think they left the door open for themselves to do an Italy civ with minimal rearranging of assets, but that doesn't mean it will be included in this expansion.

@pgm123 Because the Pueblo felt that way doesn't mean that all, or even most Native American groups would be opposed to representation. It would be a mistake to generalize.

 

[Cerilis]

theres still that hint from one of the artits of the game that made a sketch of a female warrior figure, could that mean joan of arc?

I forgot about that, do you have the link ready, maybe?

 

[God of Kings]

This was the source of much speculation about the DLCs, and is still very possible for a future civ.

But the whole city-state argument doesn't really provide much of a clue. There's a very good chance Korea is coming in Rise & Fall, and so they will have to replace Seoul as a city-state. They already replaced Jakarta to add Indonesia. I do not see why they couldn't have just included Venice and Florence and then replaced them later...

Likewise, Lisbon, Amsterdam, and Toronto could be replaced if Portugal, the Netherlands, and Canada were to become civs.

 

[Scaramanga]

So based on the new features I think one addition we'll be seeing is... Rome. But seriously there doesn't seem to be anything about the new features that distinguishes expansion and vanilla civs.

I will take seriously though the producer's comment about new civs being from "The Land" (http://www.pcgamer.com/civilization-6-rise-and-fall-expansion/):

Ottomans
Mongols
Celts
Inca
Zulu
[great plains indians]
"The Land" civ 7
"The Land" civ 8