Beaten to religion in Emperor

[Leondegrance]

You are literally asking for a way to change the DLL through a...folder? What you are asking for isn’t a simple notepad change, bud. I’m sorry that your ignorance of coding is frustrating, but I can’t help with the impossible.

G

I am shocked honestly that you cant point to the location of the code where I can build baths freely. It should be a flag nothing more.

It is obvious you are pulling my leg with your c++ stuff. Is obvious elementary and you afraid if telling me means barrage of similar user-tuned requests. You afraid of that and I can understand your fear.

Nevermind, a simple bath wont disturb my games slightest. It is already broken and I know how to break it on deity 43. By OCC with vassalage. Deity is not worth it imao. Better play prince and role-play it much better and where vp shines.

 

[tu_79]

A workaround would be to have wells or watermills as a requiremt for baths, and forget about the fresh water stuff, but I don't want this change.

 

[Leondegrance]

I can understand his reluctance to provide the means. He is right in his own way.

It is not easy to be a game coder today. It will be baths today, temples tomorrow, stables the other day and so on. Everybody will find something not quite right and it will be nightmare.

I am fine with the baths. So be it.

 

[Gazebo]

I can understand his reluctance to provide the means. He is right in his own way.

It is not easy to be a game coder today. It will be baths today, temples tomorrow, stables the other day and so on. Everybody will find something not quite right and it will be nightmare.

I am fine with the baths. So be it.

I honest to goodness have no earthly idea what you are talking about, nor, at this point, what you’re asking for. Best of luck!

G

 

[tu_79]

I honest to goodness have no earthly idea what you are talking about, nor, at this point, what you’re asking for. Best of luck!

G

He is realizing that what you are doing is no easy task and probably will keep trying to contribute in his own way.

Community is a weird concept. It is not developers' game alone, but it is not whatever the community wishes, either. There are instances where the community may desire something, but it is not allowed for coding, technical or philosophical reasons by the developers. And there are instances where the community has forced changes against the opinion of the developers. We have a rather complicated policy, but it seems to be working.

It's refreshing to have new points of view, so I hope he adapts to our way of doing things. Asking ourselves if baths are OK is a good thing. Debates are fine, as long as they are civil, reasoned and based on evidence. Polls are fine, when there's not a clear opinion on a subject.

On the other side, I understand that sometimes new members get frustrated when their claims are dismissed for coming from noobs, but when the same claims are reported several times, that demonstrates us that there's indeed a problem. So we end up looking into the problem. So, don't be afraid to contribute even if you think you are being dismissed. We hear you.

 

[Leondegrance]

Yeah no problem if baths are like this. Not a gamebreaking issue by any means, a bath gives 1 culture and 1 gold. Not a biggie.

My reasoning was that for a moment I found it little bit strange. Because the fact that we construct a well at a particular place means that there is a source of fresh water at that place. So it seemed natural to question why we can't build a bath at a place which has fresh water.

But I understand the idea behind that it has to be a whole river, or marsh, or oasis, or lake. So is okay.

In reality neither a common well, nor a river, nor lake etc makes a bath. What baths need as a source, I believe are called natural springs. This is very clean pristine underground water, is believed to have healing properties. And people visit these baths or balneology centers for that mainly.

 

[azum4roll]

It actually has never occurred to me that marshes count as a source of fresh water. So we're supposed to not clear it until we build all the fresh water buildings we want?

 

[Gazebo]

It actually has never occurred to me that marshes count as a source of fresh water. So we're supposed to not clear it until we build all the fresh water buildings we want?

Marshes are not fresh water.

 

[kkkitten]

Let's pretend baths are just natural sites where you go bathe, and you feel culturally enriched to bathe in that pretty fresh water I've learned to never apply (most) game or movie logic to the real world 100%. Even in civ 5 I don't care what years my eras come, it's a different world to me. Montezuma I (or any leader) living from the Ancient all the way to Information era is not exactly realistic, but to me design and fun > realism in the case of this game at least. Note that that's just my view, or, my +2

 

[Minh Le]

Yeah, as a gamer I also prefer to have a more strategy game than a simulation game.

 

[tu_79]

Reread baths description. It buffs temples, amphitheaters and something else, providing massive culture to such cities.

 

[Bromar1]

It's intended.

We had a long long discussion on the topic. We have three categories for founding cities, regarding water. There are river cities. These ones benefit from water mills, which are improved versions of the well though they come later. There are cities with access to fresh water (rivers, lakes, marshes and oasis) which can build baths, a culture enhancing building. And there are coastal cities, which can build naval buildings and be attacked by ships.
As it is now, we have to decide if we want to settle in rivers with extra gold, better long term yields and more available buildings late game, settle non river cities with fresh water with better short term yields, settle without fresh water, accepting fewer culture for whatever goodies could be around, or settle coastal with better connectivity, naval involvement and riskier defense. It is accepted that non river cities have a stronger start, allowing for easier expansion, thus the lower yields.

If wells were to allow baths, then we would lose the strategic decision of where to settle.

I feel like the balance here makes sense in the short term but not in the long term. If you're playing Korea or some other golden age dependent civ, giving up on baths is a nonstarter. If baths must be linked to rivers that's fine, but having the Golden Age bonus also linked to rivers warps a whole strategy. It just doesn't make balance sense that river cities get to have stritctly better golden ages. Keep the +1+1 on the relevant buildings but move the +10% bonus to opera houses or some other building that is not related to rivers at all.

 

[tu_79]

I feel like the balance here makes sense in the short term but not in the long term. If you're playing Korea or some other golden age dependent civ, giving up on baths is a nonstarter. If baths must be linked to rivers that's fine, but having the Golden Age bonus also linked to rivers warps a whole strategy. It just doesn't make balance sense that river cities get to have stritctly better golden ages. Keep the +1+1 on the relevant buildings but move the +10% bonus to opera houses or some other building that is not related to rivers at all.

It's not only rivers, it's all with fresh water access. For these, there are plenty enough locations. Not settling near fresh water should be done very carefully and with a strong reason.

 

[Leondegrance]

Yeah, as a gamer I also prefer to have a more strategy game than a simulation game.

Objection. Strategy and simulation can go hand in hand like friends.

 

[Bromar1]

It's not only rivers, it's all with fresh water access. For these, there are plenty enough locations. Not settling near fresh water should be done very carefully and with a strong reason.

I don't think that non-river freshwater is as common as you claim. And it still doesn't change the point that GA bonus should be independent from terrain

 

[tu_79]

I don't think that non-river freshwater is as common as you claim. And it still doesn't change the point that GA bonus should be independent from terrain

Why?

Different terrain has different strengths and weaknesses, I don't see why GA should be different and be homogeneous.

 

[TheBigFundamental]

I'd prefer if baths were buildable in all cities, but if they gave a certain additional bonus only when built in a city with access to fresh water.

 

[Leondegrance]

When I see a river on the map I imagine this to be a large river the scale of Missisipi river at least. Not any kind of small feeder river or stream.

Due to scale.

A hex in Civ 5 is quite large territory. Chances are there are multiple rivers in that hex but are too small to be drawn.

The total area of Earth is about 500 milions sq kilometers. The number of hexes on huge map is I think 10 000 roughly. So if we model the map after the Earth, that is 50 000 sq. kilometers.

Give me a location on the Earth and I promise you to find a source of fresh water within 50k sq km.

 

[Gazebo]

When I see a river on the map I imagine this to be a large river the scale of Missisipi river at least. Not any kind of small feeder river or stream.

Due to scale.

A hex in Civ 5 is quite large territory. Chances are there are multiple rivers in that hex but are too small to be drawn.

The total area of Earth is about 500 milions sq kilometers. The number of hexes on huge map is I think 10 000 roughly. So if we model the map after the Earth, that is 50 000 sq. kilometers.

Give me a location on the Earth and I promise you to find a source of fresh water within 50k sq km.

See point above re: realism v. gameplay. Any arguments about total realism will break down in the face of oh, say, immortal leaders, America in 4000BC, Pyramids in Toyko, archers that can shoot across the English channel, etc.etc.

It's a rabbit hole I don't intend to go down.

G

 

[chicorbeef]

It's not only rivers, it's all with fresh water access. For these, there are plenty enough locations. Not settling near fresh water should be done very carefully and with a strong reason.

I personally think that the Tradition bonus to Baths might be better for Amphitheaters. You can't really control whether you start near Fresh water or not and where your resources will end up. Baths are a really important Tradition building, a little too important I think (I am fine with their balance for non-Tradition goers). I am not opposed to the +10% Culture during GA remaining on Bath because I don't want to rock the status quo too much but the +2 Culture on Baths from Tradition is a little much I think.