Been Playing Civ too Long

[Photi]

unfortunately there is a lot of truth to this the status quo.

the problem is that we (and by we here i am talking all of humanity) justify and continue the status quo. 'we are imperialists, we have always been imperialists, and so imperialists we will be.' it is not just the US that thinks this way, i know, but the US has a decided material power advantage over the rest of the world and though that has its limitations, as we see in iraq, it still has its uses and in my opinion it should use this power to establish a framework for genuine justice. genuine justice is not 'might is right' it is somethinng more sublime than that i don't think we have a clue to what that is in this country (USA).

 

[toft]

Anyway... its pretty funny to "discuss" this with US citizens, as everyone I have discussed this issue with over here tends to agree with me. Always a bit more fun to hear from both sides...

 

[A1CBOZ]

the problem is that we (and by we here i am talking all of humanity) justify and continue the status quo. 'we are imperialists, we have always been imperialists, and so imperialists we will be.' it is not just the US that thinks this way, i know, but the US has a decided material power advantage over the rest of the world and though that has its limitations, as we see in iraq, it still has its uses and in my opinion it should use this power to establish a framework for genuine justice. genuine justice is not 'might is right' it is somethinng more sublime than that i don't think we have a clue to what that is in this country (USA).

I agree. But until humanity is born without the urge to make empires and destroy others, the 'might is right' philosophy will reign.

 

[A1CBOZ]

Anyway... its pretty funny to "discuss" this with US citizens, as everyone I have discussed this issue with over here tends to agree with me. Always a bit more fun to hear from both sides...

I agree. There is no way that anyone can learn from other nation's peoples, or even their own, unless the talk to them. Unfortunatley it can sometimes in end a cultural faux pas and led to less understanding and more mistrust

 

[Huxley Hobbes]

Plus, now the relations with Iran are even worsening with a -2 for "Our close borders spark tensions" and plus the lingering -4 for "You traded with our worst enemies!" Iran-Iraq war.....

Let's not forget that both sides have about -6 "We know what you're up to..."

 

[whb]

To try to turn this thread away from being a political barney about the rights and wrongs of the Iraq war (but without changing topic entirely) I'll chime in with something that maybe Civ should learn from the events in the Middle East:

In reality, it takes no troop presence to keep your own cities happy (Seattle isn't in much danger of invasion...) but a lot of troops to hold a conquered city. In Civ, this is reversed -- your cities have a happiness penalty if undefended; for recently conquered cities, having a military presence makes no difference as they are in revolt anyway.

Edit: that'll teach me not to pause mid-post; by the time I clicked 'save' the thread had moved on and the political barney had defused itself.

 

[Photi]

I agree. But until humanity is born without the urge to make empires and destroy others, the 'might is right' philosophy will reign.

but isn't this the same feeling of complacency that people living under a despotic government have? the feeling of unmatched power, of helplessness, of resignation to powers that be? It takes people to think another way to resist that power. Complacency is not a good excuse, surely we have more vision than that. We all know that many within humanity have the urge toward empire, and without emasculating ourselves too much, i think that with that knowledge we can work towards a system that keeps that urge in check.

 

[A1CBOZ]

but isn't this the same feeling of complacency that people living under a despotic government have? the feeling of unmatched power, of helplessness, of resignation to powers that be? It takes people to think another way to resist that power. Complacency is not a good excuse, surely we have more vision than that. We all know that many within humanity have the urge toward empire, and without emasculating ourselves too much, i think that with that knowledge we can work towards a system that keeps that urge in check.

Im sorry but i disagree. I don't see any way that all nations will ever stop trying to out produce their neighbors becasue of either fear, or conquest. it will always be. The only thing that the advancement of civilization has given us is the ability to kill other humans in quicker, more effeicent ways. I am willing to say that no man (meaning humanity in general, not the male gender) let alone a nation, is willing to give up what he has so that everyone will be equal. Everyone wants to be one up on the other guy, and unfortunatley it always will be that way.

 

[Angst]

I never connect Civ with the real world. Bush just ain't representable in Civ, there's no Incapable or Yummy, Liking Fruit traits...

 

[toft]

Im sorry but i disagree. I don't see any way that all nations will ever stop trying to out produce their neighbors becasue of either fear, or conquest. it will always be. The only thing that the advancement of civilization has given us is the ability to kill other humans in quicker, more effeicent ways. I am willing to say that no man (meaning humanity in general, not the male gender) let alone a nation, is willing to give up what he has so that everyone will be equal. Everyone wants to be one up on the other guy, and unfortunatley it always will be that way.

I agree with you that individuals will always seek more power, money or possession. But as democratic nations, individual gain through nationalistic and governmental means, could very well be diminished. Although the Bush-administration has proven otherwise, I think it could be done.

 

[A1CBOZ]

I agree with you that individuals will always seek more power, money or possession. But as democratic nations, individual gain through nationalistic and governmental means, could very well be diminished. Although the Bush-administration has proven otherwise, I think it could be done.

The Bush administration has done nothing of the sort. At least no more than any other leader. Any leader of any democratic nation always have individual gain, simply becasue they lead the most progressive nations in the world. Its simple. The boss is paid more than the employees.

 

[Photi]

Im sorry but i disagree. I don't see any way that all nations will ever stop trying to out produce their neighbors becasue of either fear, or conquest. it will always be. The only thing that the advancement of civilization has given us is the ability to kill other humans in quicker, more effeicent ways. I am willing to say that no man (meaning humanity in general, not the male gender) let alone a nation, is willing to give up what he has so that everyone will be equal. Everyone wants to be one up on the other guy, and unfortunatley it always will be that way.

this is a difficult topic, in part because we are talking about the behavior of nation-states which are still relatively new to the human scene. nation-states themselves could not have come about without some level of imperialism, France and esp Spain in the Basque region are still having difficulty with nation-state formation. i thnk the urge toward empire has served many uses for civilization, but unrestrained urges are never good for humanity. with the fluidity of communications these days, i think we are still at the beginning of a radical transformation in the way we organize our societies. in that transformation we can give into our urges and justify unbridled imperialism (like iraq) or we can put efforts into swaying the argument another direction. accepting the argument that humans are imperialists and so come what may is unjustifiable complacency in my opinion, because not only are we imperialists, but we are also thinking beings with concepts of justice and we also come equipped with compassion for our fellow man. to be complacent lets the warmongers win out, and excuse me but to repeat the oft said phrase, i am a builder at heart.

 

[toft]

The Bush administration has done nothing of the sort. At least no more than any other leader. Any leader of any democratic nation always have individual gain, simply becasue they lead the most progressive nations in the world. Its simple. The boss is paid more than the employees.

Dare I mention the word; nepotism?

 

[A1CBOZ]

this is a difficult topic, in part because we are talking about the behavior of nation-states which are still relatively new to the human scene. nation-states themselves could not have come about without some level of imperialism, France and esp Spain in the Basque region are still having difficulty with nation-state formation. i thnk the urge toward empire has served many uses for civilization, but unrestrained urges are never good for humanity. with the fluidity of communications these days, i think we are still at the beginning of a radical transformation in the way we organize our societies. in that transformation we can give into our urges and justify unbridled imperialism (like iraq) or we can put efforts into swaying the argument another direction. accepting the argument that humans are imperialists and so come what may is unjustifiable complacency in my opinion, because not only are we imperialists, but we are also thinking beings with concepts of justice and we also come equipped with compassion for our fellow man. to be complacent lets the warmongers win out, and excuse me but to repeat the oft said phrase, i am a builder at heart.

I don't believe that humans have concepts of justice in them. It is brought upon them through society, and face it, societies view of justice is often broken. Justice in this world is getting the other guy before he gets me. It's sad but true

 

[A1CBOZ]

Dare I mention the word; nepotism?

Who is that pointed towards?

 

[toft]

Who is that pointed towards?

Just about all of the Bush-administration...

 

[A1CBOZ]

Just about all of the Bush-administration...

Saying that I have favoritism towards them?

 

[toft]

Saying that I have favoritism towards them?

No. I meant that the current administration favors certain companies and relatives...

 

[jdurg]

While it may be true that the Bush Administration hasn't done anything that administrations before them haven't done, it is true that this Administration isn't afraid to admit it. While either way, the removal of our freedoms blows and we have little we can do about it, I'd much rather have an administration that isn't gloating about it. This administration seems to get their jollies off of stating that they are taking away our freedoms and trying to make us feel like retards for getting upset over it. The admins in the past were much more secretive about it and I liked that better. Go figure.

 

[A1CBOZ]

No. I meant that the current administration favors certain companies and relatives...

of course. Human nature. It always happens.