Being skeptical about Skepticism

Lexicus

Deity
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
33,781
Location
Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
I came across this thing posted in Scientific American, and it's done a good job of articulating a lot of the thoughts I've been having recently about the "Skeptical movement."

Yesterday I spoke at the Northeast Conference on Science and Skepticism, NECSS, a “celebration of science and critical thinking” held May 12-15 in New York City. Philosopher Massimo Pigliucci, whom I met recently, got me invited, and he might regret that, because I decided to treat the skeptics skeptically. I originally titled my talk “Skepticism: Hard Versus Soft Targets.” The references to “Bigfoot” in the headline above and text below were inspired by a conversation I had with conference Emcee Jamy Ian Swiss before I went on stage. He asked what I planned to say, and I told him, and he furiously defended his opposition to belief in Bigfoot. He wasn’t kidding. I hadn’t brought up Bigfoot, but I decided to mention him in my talk. Swiss didn’t let me take questions, so I promised the audience that I would post the talk here (slightly edited) and would welcome skeptical comments or emails. –-John Horgan
I hate preaching to the converted. If you were Buddhists, I’d bash Buddhism. But you’re skeptics, so I have to bash skepticism.
I’m a science journalist. I don’t celebrate science, I criticize it, because science needs critics more than cheerleaders. I point out gaps between scientific hype and reality. That keeps me busy, because, as you know, most peer-reviewed scientific claims are wrong.
So I’m a skeptic, but with a small S, not capital S. I don’t belong to skeptical societies. I don’t hang out with people who self-identify as capital-S Skeptics. Or Atheists. Or Rationalists.
When people like this get together, they become tribal. They pat each other on the back and tell each other how smart they are compared to those outside the tribe. But belonging to a tribe often makes you dumber.
Here’s an example involving two idols of Capital-S Skepticism: biologist Richard Dawkins and physicist Lawrence Krauss. Krauss recently wrote a book, A Universe from Nothing. He claims that physics is answering the old question, Why is there something rather than nothing?
Krauss’s book doesn’t come close to fulfilling the promise of its title, but Dawkins loved it. He writes in the book’s afterword: "If On the Origin of Species was biology's deadliest blow to supernaturalism, we may come to see A Universe From Nothing as the equivalent from cosmology."
Just to be clear: Dawkins is comparing Lawrence Krauss to Charles Darwin. Why would Dawkins say something so foolish? Because he hates religion so much that it impairs his scientific judgment. He succumbs to what you might call “The Science Delusion.”
“The Science Delusion” is common among Capital-S Skeptics. You don’t apply your skepticism equally. You are extremely critical of belief in God, ghosts, heaven, ESP, astrology, homeopathy and Bigfoot. You also attack disbelief in global warming, vaccines and genetically modified food.
These beliefs and disbeliefs deserve criticism, but they are what I call “soft targets.” That’s because, for the most part, you’re bashing people outside your tribe, who ignore you. You end up preaching to the converted.
Meanwhile, you neglect what I call hard targets. These are dubious and even harmful claims promoted by major scientists and institutions. In the rest of this talk, I’ll give you examples of hard targets from physics, medicine and biology. I’ll wrap up with a rant about war, the hardest target of all.

So do people agree with this? Can science serve as a kind of "psychological religion" which, rather than serving to learn things, simply is an excuse for the adherents of capital-S Skepticism to think they are better than the benighted fools who believe in things like homeopathy and Bigfoot?
 
Yes. You see people fall into the trap of abandoning being scientific to join team Being Scientific.
 
It would have been nice to see those examples, and then examples of people who are sceptical of the 'soft targets' but give them a free pass. That's distinct from not publishing anything on them - I'm sure that Richard Dawkins took a sceptical view of the decision to go to war in Iraq, though probably didn't publish anything because, well, he was busy writing about evolution and God.
 
What are the 'harmful claims'?
 
Yeah sure, it happens a lot. People need to read more good philosophy. Or watch videos on youtube, whatever.
 
Being skeptical about skepticism doesn't make any sense. Skepticism merely asks for, and evaluates, evidence supporting a given claim. Though of course it is possible to find people who are skeptics in name only, and simply repeat whatever scientific claim they've been told. However, it is also possible to be faux skeptical, and disregarding evidence to continue to be skeptical, almost as if one celebrates ignorance...

As Flying Pig said, it would be nice to see more of these examples, but I have a few initial thoughts:

I've never read The Universe from Nothing, but I've seen videos of Krauss presenting/lecturing on it. It is pretty radical, so if the evidence is corroborated, I can see how it is possible for it to gain historical significance. Remember, it took some time before natural evolution became accepted as well, and The Origin of Species isn't devoid of mistakes or inaccuracies.

I think it's pretty low to accuse Dawkins of letting his emotions get in the way of scientific rigor. If one actually pays attention, it is evident that he is usually ridiculously careful about how he words things, as charlatans and demagogues are constantly trying to find faults in what he says. And in fact, he didn't compare Krauss to Darwin: He compared the possible significance (notice the 'if' and 'may' in the quote) between the books in regards to religious questions. Evidently, that was too much of a nuance for some, whom even seem to imply that comparisons to Darwin is somehow ridiculous. The author seems to have fallen into a false belief that Darwin is somehow sacred and that it is 'foolish' to compare anyone to him. The truth is that Darwin was nothing special. He was a scientist who published a theory (which had already been formulated by another scientist of the time!) which turned out to be largely correct and became part of the foundation of biology.

Finally, the supposed neglect of criticism against scientific claims is just that: supposed. There's tons of criticism of scientific claims, and while evidently some bad claims manages to get through peer review, many more are stopped. And even claims which do get through, are still challenged. See for instance the current debate around epigenetics.

That science journalism might be terrible, report lots of scientifically bad claims, and otherwise confusing more than informing - this guy even bragged about being a 'science jouranlist' - isn't the fault of science or skepticism.

Honestly, the more I read this, the more it looks like a smear piece wrapped in a layer of skeptical and rational terms. Though I'll admit that picking out pieces from an extract from a longer speech might be unfair to the arguments and author. For the time being though, I'm skeptical.
 
I just went and looked up Hogan, and I'm not overtly impressed.

Here's his Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Horgan_(journalist)

I found some blogs and news articles which more or less defends him though, so as I previously, I might be unfairly judging him.

Freethought Blogs: I should have warned John Horgan

The New Yorker: Science and Its Skeptics

the final paragraphs from the New Yorker article said:
[...] As the Cambridge (U.K.) scientist Rogier Kievit put it to me in an e-mail: “the avenues for (constructive) criticism of science are so much better now than they were even five years ago…. The half-life of nonsensical findings has decreased enormously, sometimes even to before the paper has officially been published.” The wholesale shift in the culture of how scientists think about their craft is at least as significant a meta-story as the replicability crisis itself. But the prophets of doom never let their readers in on this happy secret.

It is absolutely correct for onlookers to call for increased skepticism and clearer thinking in science writing. I’ve sometimes heard it said, with a certain amount of condescension, that this or that field of science “needs its popularizers.” But what science really needs is greater enthusiasm for those people who are willing to invest the time to try to sort the truth from hype and bring that to the public. Academic science does far too little to encourage such voices.

At the same time, it is facile to dismiss science itself. The most careful scientists, and the best science journalists, realize that all science is provisional. There will always be things that we haven’t figured out yet, and even some that we get wrong. But science is not just about conclusions, which are occasionally incorrect. It’s about a methodology for investigation, which includes, at its core, a relentless drive towards questioning that which came before. You can both love science and question it. As my father, who passed away earlier this year, taught me, there is no contradiction between the two.
 
I believe the problem lies mostly in "hyped" scientific fields, which attract the attention of the popular scientific press and of many non-scientists. This leads to some scientists becoming super-stars, and also leads to inflated egos and millionaire funding for their research, as long as it stays on the spotlight. This can be a dangerous combination for scientific rigor.

The obvious example of a "hyped" field of the present is global warming. Before my crucifixion starts, I'm not saying it isn't real. I'm saying it attracts a gigantic attention from the press (scientific and not), gives a lot of scientists exposure to mass media, to UN committees, and to millions of dollars in funding. It is likely that the statements they make on this subject are not as carefully weighted as in other, less flashy ones. It is likely that sometimes there is pressure to sticking to the consensus and avoiding overly critical assessments. It is likely that there is a tendency to ostracize those who deviate from these unwritten guidelines. So, as the OP says, a tribal thinking of sorts arises.
 
For the time being though, I'm skeptical.

Nah I go one step further, I'm skeptical of your skepticism of his skepticism of Skepticism.

Seriously though, I do think that identifying yourself as a capital-S Skeptic is a weird thing to do. Thinking criticallly and having a healthy measure of skepticism should just go without saying. It's like calling yourself a Breather.
 
Cheetah said:
Being skeptical about skepticism doesn't make any sense.

No, but being skeptical about Skepticism certainly does. The capital letter was there for a reason.

I realized I forgot to include the link to the original article in the OP!

Cheetah said:
I think it's pretty low to accuse Dawkins of letting his emotions get in the way of scientific rigor.

It's also quite accurate as he frequently makes extremely dubious claims. His politics are also atrocious and to the extent that he attempts to justify them with science he certainly allows his prejudices to get in the way of his scientific rigor.

Flying Pig said:
It would have been nice to see those examples, and then examples of people who are sceptical of the 'soft targets' but give them a free pass. That's distinct from not publishing anything on them - I'm sure that Richard Dawkins took a sceptical view of the decision to go to war in Iraq, though probably didn't publish anything because, well, he was busy writing about evolution and God.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...thy-and-bigfoot-less-mammograms-and-war-more/

The "hard" target examples in the article are
Multiverses and the Singularity
Overtested and Overtreated for Cancer
Mental-Illness Over-Medication
Gene-Whiz Science
The Deep-Roots Theory of War

Mise said:
Yeah sure, it happens a lot. People need to read more good philosophy

I'm part of a few of the Skeptical Communities on social media. Not too long ago they posted an article by a guy 'refuting' a different article, that had argued science is also to some degree faith-based. I pointed out that clearly science is based on postulates that must be taken on faith to some degree, only to be shouted down by a chorus of Science Crusaders. I started explaining some of the basics of the philosophy of science only to be accused of engaging in "useless navel-gazing." So yeah, these people need to get lives and realize that things other than science also have value.
 
Wholeheartedly agree with the OP.
That was a delicious way to put it.

In all areas, you can develop a certain zeal. A strong emotional attachment to a given point of view which can make it immensely hard to keep a cool, rational and open mind. And I think what the OP is about is that "Skeptics", as all others who are passionate about sth, at times fall for this zeal and in they skeptical gloriousness forget their own failings over how wrong others are.
I actually witnessed this in a video by Dawkins where he talked with a Creationist. Now the Creationist was dumb and Dawkins a lot smarter etcetera. However, in some aspects, the Creationist had a point. Which was that evolution is not as scientifically well established as gravity for instance. Because we can not actually test evolution as a whole. That, of course, does not deny that we still can put evolution on very solid scientific feet. But just not quit as solid as gravity. But Dawkins was so eager to make his superior argument that he actually argued the opposite. That evolution was as solid as gravity. That's just not true. This is a small example of how being occupied with the wrongness of others while very passionate about your own POV can pollute train of thought.

Essentially, a skeptic has to be skeptical of others and of him self at the same time. And the letter just can get kinda lost. And this self-skepticism is one of the first victims of any mass or group movement, as the article correctly points out. Even Skepticism.
I think an actually lived (lived by social gatherings etcetera) group identity even inherently depends on a certain dispense of skepticism to be possible in the first place.
 
Regarding Deep-Roots Theory of War, doesn't culture in part rise somewhat from biology and environment. I mean yes there are large cultural variations because of this, but the way the brain treats groupations might make peace difficult, especially when resources or territory are lacking and so especially without civilizational modifiers. Later on when you have civilization, you have more ego, more need to have more 'stuff'. Now I just pulled this out of my behind, what do the experts think?

I'm part of a few of the Skeptical Communities on social media. Not too long ago they posted an article by a guy 'refuting' a different article, that had argued science is also to some degree faith-based. I pointed out that clearly science is based on postulates that must be taken on faith to some degree, only to be shouted down by a chorus of Science Crusaders. I started explaining some of the basics of the philosophy of science only to be accused of engaging in "useless navel-gazing." So yeah, these people need to get lives and realize that things other than science also have value.

Of course they do, but it's hard to beat what science does. The strength of it's predictive models, the ability to stick someone into a magnet and turn off their moral centers...
It really is a new faith, but whose God can actually touch you in all the right and dirty ways.
 
Regarding Deep-Roots Theory of War, doesn't culture in part rise somewhat from biology and environment. I mean yes there are large cultural variations because of this, but the way the brain treats groupations might make peace difficult, especially when resources or territory are lacking and so especially without civilizational modifiers. Later on when you have civilization, you have more ego, more need to have more 'stuff'. Now I just pulled this out of my behind, what do the experts think?
No expert a all, but I think the discussion about this "deep-roots theory of war" thing to be one of the most pointless and absurd discussions I've ever seen.

If war had only begun a couple centuries ago, then we could link it to some specific development and claim it has "shallow roots" and realistically expect to fully eliminate it. But war emerged many thousands of years ago, certainly as soon as man became sedentary, maybe even much before. It is found in the hunter-gathering tribes of the Amazon and it is done by great powers of the 21st Century. Whether it became common 100,000 years ago or 10,000 years ago might interest archaeologists but it certainly says nothing about how entrenched war is. It's obviously deeply entrenched, and the numerous pieces on Scientific American arguing against that are pathetic.
 
No expert a all, but I think the discussion about this "deep-roots theory of war" thing to be one of the most pointless and absurd discussions I've ever seen.

If war had only begun a couple centuries ago, then we could link it to some specific development and claim it has "shallow roots" and realistically expect to fully eliminate it. But war emerged many thousands of years ago, certainly as soon as man became sedentary, maybe even much before. It is found in the hunter-gathering tribes of the Amazon and it is done by great powers of the 21st Century. Whether it became common 100,000 years ago or 10,000 years ago might interest archaeologists but it certainly says nothing about how entrenched war is. It's obviously deeply entrenched, and the numerous pieces on Scientific American arguing against that are pathetic.

If you had bothered to read those pieces you would realize they are not arguing it is not deeply entrenched. Not even close.
 
If you had bothered to read those pieces you would realize they are not arguing it is not deeply entrenched. Not even close.

I did read them, and one even quoted Jonathan Haas in support of its position (or rather they were supporting Haas' position), who came up with the following:

The truly dangerous part of the “deep roots” theory is that provides a foundation for warmongers to ignore the actual root causes of war in the modern world, which are invariably to be found in the material bases of culture--environment, resource availability, demography and production. If we are going to understand why people go to war, we have to understand that warfare comes not from our biology but from causal variables that can be addressed and resolved by human actions.

Which is just stupid.
 
I did read them, and one even quoted Jonathan Haas in support of its position (or rather they were supporting Haas' position), who came up with the following:



Which is just stupid.

You may think it's stupid (clearly, it is not) but Haas is certainly not arguing there that war is not "deeply entrenched."
 
You may think it's stupid (clearly, it is not) but Haas is certainly not arguing there that war is not "deeply entrenched."

Yes, he is saying just that, and it's also one of the silliest arguments I've ever seen in a respectable publication.

And I also note just how unscientific he is: he is accusing his intellectual opponents of fueling warmongers! So his position is the moral one, and his opponents are immoral. If he was serious about the objective superiority of his position he could abstain from moral preaching and slandering his opponents. But he ain't, because his argument is stupid.
 
The truly dangerous part of the “deep roots” theory is that provides a foundation for warmongers to ignore the actual root causes of war in the modern world, which are invariably to be found in the material bases of culture--environment, resource availability, demography and production. If we are going to understand why people go to war, we have to understand that warfare comes not from our biology but from causal variables that can be addressed and resolved by human actions.

That seems kind of inconsistent to me, we want good environments, good resources, good breeding mates. Those are in the end biological urges. War is what you might call an adaption to acquire all that. Obviously I lean heavily towards determinism, so I'm biased towards these kinds of views.
 
luiz said:
Yes, he is saying just that,

Again - he clearly is not arguing that, at all. He is simply saying that war does not spring directly from our biology.
That is a very different proposition than saying it is not deeply entrenched, and of course in one of the articles they quote Margaret Mead, the originator of the war-as-cultural-innovation theory, saying flat-out that it may be impossible to end war anyway because like many other cultural innovations it has become so deeply entrenched.
 
Back
Top Bottom