Belief systems poll

[Arachnofiend]

I was still being a turd by the time my younger brother was entirely capable of taking me in a fight. Besides, any power I may have had over them would cease once the parents got involved.

The analogy has broken down completely at this point, of course. The original argument is more like if I either A) was too far away and too disinterested to do anything at the moment or B) never existed at all; my older younger brother used my theoretical existence to tell my youngest brother that big sis is going to beat him up if he doesn't do what the first brother says. I've been gone too long for either brother to have any real memories of me, but my existence is far more useful to the elder brother so he defends it rigorously.

 

[Krogan Doctor]

I was still being a turd by the time my younger brother was entirely capable of taking me in a fight.

Then you are being stupid. What kind of being threatens those more powerful than them? It defies all logic.

 

[cardgame]

Yes, it does defy all logic.

 

[Antilogic]

It's almost like bluster, bluffing, and lying didn't exist.

 

[Krogan Doctor]

It's almost like bluster, bluffing, and lying didn't exist.

Bluster and bluff aren't threats. They're pseudo-threats.

 

[Kyriakos]

God: respecting cowardice since 30-something A.D.

I agree

However the thread is not about specific gods.

Old testament/New testament god is really a horrible idea, in my view. And the old testament one is even worse... Just the delusion of a people filled with fear, as Nietzsche noted.

 

[Borachio]

VERY few people, the Blessed Virgin Mary possibly excepted, don't start their faith with fear as a base. Most people start believing because of fear of hell and this is perfectly acceptable to God. As the Bible says, "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom."

This is arrant nonsense.

(Which isn't a term I use very often.)

I mean, it may be true of certain evangelical hell and glory types (heaven help their little ol' psychological profiles), but it's not true of most people.

Most people, I humbly suggest, start believing because their parents tell them that this and this, and such and such, is true. Children will quite literally believe anything until they either discover it certainly isn't true (like Father Christmas) or they start to think critically for themselves (about hell and heaven, for example).

In the absence of any other information, why wouldn't a child believe what you tell them? And if a child can't, or won't, believe their own parents, what would become of them?

 

[Krogan Doctor]

This is arrant nonsense.

(Which isn't a term I use very often.)

I mean, it may be true of certain evangelical hell and glory types (heaven help their little ol' psychological profiles), but it's not true of most people.

Most people, I humbly suggest, start believing because their parents tell them that this and this, and such and such, is true. Children will quite literally believe anything until they either discover it certainly isn't true (like Father Christmas) or they start to think critically for themselves (about hell and heaven, for example).

In the absence of any other information, why wouldn't a child believe what you tell them? And if a child can't, or won't, believe their own parents, what would become of them?

I meant most adults.

 

[Borachio]

Then, I still don't think it's true.

I very infrequently meet adults who have found some faith, as adults. But it does happen. The latest was a former Albanian Muslim who'd converted to Christianity. I don't remember him mentioning fear as a factor at all.

The major reason for "natives" converting to, say, Christianity, was to please their "masters", or perhaps because of "fear" of their masters indeed, or more usually and more plausibly, I think, because the missionaries represented a more "advanced" civilization and they thought thereby they'd get access to technological goodies. A kind of ideological cargo cult.

Still, I don't know what circles you move in. Perhaps it consists of a lot of people who constantly bemoan their afterlife prospects and who really do fear hell and brimstone?

 

[Krogan Doctor]

Then, I still don't think it's true.

I very infrequently meet adults who have found some faith, as adults. But it does happen. The latest was a former Albanian Muslim who'd converted to Christianity. I don't remember him mentioning fear as a factor at all.

The major reason for "natives" converting to, say, Christianity, was to please their "masters", or perhaps because of "fear" of their masters indeed, or more usually and more plausibly because the missionaries represent a more "advanced" civilization and they think thereby they'll get access to technological goodies.

The fear of God (His judgment) is the beginning of wisdom. Check the Bible.

 

[Borachio]

I have checked. It doesn't convince me that it's true.

It certainly doesn't convince me that fear is the reason most people believe in it.

Besides, unless I'm mistaken, the idea of fearing God is rather OT. There's been a new convenant for Christians. Have you checked the NT?

 

[Krogan Doctor]

I have checked. It doesn't convince me that it's true.

It certainly doesn't convince me that fear is the reason most people believe in it.

Besides, unless I'm mistaken, the idea of fearing God is rather OT. There's been a new convenant for Christians. Have you checked the NT?

Then read the Revelations of Saint Bridget. God Himself says in it that the way he enters most people's souls is through their fear of Him.

 

[Traitorfish]

It's right handy, being able to say "check the Bible" every time you can't be bothered to make an argument. I suspect that might be the real reason people take up this Christianity business.

 

[Borachio]

Who? Bridget of Sweden?

You don't think Mark 12:29 outranks Bridget?

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[PhroX]

Pascal's Wanger is an interesting one. For me, I look at it from the opposite point of view: don't believe in or worship God, but live what you think is a good life and:

a) There is no God, I've not lost anything
b) There is a God, but he accepts that I have been a good person and forgives me for not believing in him, in which case I've not lost anything
c) There is a God, and he condemns me to hell/denies me eternal life/etc. solely for not following him, in which case he is evil and was never worthy of my worship in the first place, and I'm better of not living for eternity in his abhoerent presence

 

[Kyriakos]

^I tend to like that view

Afaik some church elements support it, while others (most, i suspect) condemn it. Can't have the church getting less lambs of god now...

 

[Krogan Doctor]

c) There is a God, and he condemns me to hell/denies me eternal life/etc. solely for not following him, in which case he is evil and was never worthy of my worship in the first place, and I'm better of not living for eternity in his abhoerent presence

Our God, if He exists, is the creator of all that Is. He has the right to be jealous and demand worship. If someone chooses not to believe Him and is condemned to hell, God is still righteous because He provides numerous evidence that He exists through miracles and signs which the Bible says only fools would fail to notice, such as how the movements of the sun and planets are ordered and the trees bear fruit.

 

[PhroX]

Our God, if He exists, is the creator of all that Is. He has the right to be jealous and demand worship.

Why does that give him the right? I don't see any reason why that should be true. It might give him the power to do so, but not the right.

If someone chooses not to believe Him and is condemned to hell, God is still righteous because He provides numerous evidence that He exists through miracles and signs which the Bible says only fools would fail to notice, such as how the movements of the sun and planets are ordered and the trees bear fruit.

There is no need for God in order to explain things like the movements of planets (hint: look up Kepler...) or trees bearing fruit.

And incidentally, if he is indeed the all-knowing creator which many Christians claim, he would know exactly what it would take in order to convince me of his existence (particuarly as he apparently designed me...) and is capable of providing that evidence. He choses not to. The fault is his, not mine, and yet he would still punish me? These are not the actions of a being which can be descibed as good by any rational means.

 

[Cutlass]

So we are assuming life would be even worse if there was a god?

I'm not entirely an atheist.

(weak atheism) I heavily lean towards the belief there is no god, without being positive about it

But my greatest fear is that maybe there is a god. Because if there is a god, then the universe is a vastly more terrible place than if there is not a god. If there is no god, then all the horror and misery just happens. But if there is a god, then all the horror and misery is part of the plan.

 

[Kyriakos]

I'm not entirely an atheist.



But my greatest fear is that maybe there is a god. Because if there is a god, then the universe is a vastly more terrible place than if there is not a god. If there is no god, then all the horror and misery just happens. But if there is a god, then all the horror and misery is part of the plan.

Depends on other parameters having to do with the place/role of that god in the universe/cosmos.

Maybe a god is not even conscious, at least as we define it. So if a god is largely unconscious, you cannot really place blame there (i suppose).
Maybe it was a god that shot himself with a rifle pointed at his head, but because he is a god it takes some time to die, and the side-effect of that is the formation of our world. Basically it will be over when he is entirely dead, so no worries