[RD] Berkeley Riots

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As I said earlier, bad consequences result from making trolls a protected species.
 
I'll go ahead and quote a man who has done amazing work, that people are recognizing more and more.

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Kyriakos said:
Iirc "troll" came to be used not due to the skandinavian monster, but "trolling" (fishing term, i suppose to lure fish, and likewise to say stuff luring protest) :)
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Sooooo...I should have said that bad consequences result from making trollers a protected species?

I think my original statement was clear enough.
 
I draw the line at setting fires and breaking windows
Just ignor the troll, because all it dose it play into there hands, Students just boycott the lecture instead of providing free publicity.
 
FriendlyFire said:
I draw the line at setting fires and breaking windows
Just ignor the troll, because all it dose it play into there hands, Students just boycott the lecture instead of providing free publicity.
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If the major concern is that the speaker is going to name specific students as either trans or undocumented, which will greatly increase their chances of suffering violence and social exclusion, then he actually does have to be stopped from speaking in order to protect the safety of those students. It is not at all clear to me that the avenues for peaceful disruption of his event had been blocked such that Black Bloc tactics were the only available option, but the justification for them being used here is much stronger than they would have been if the speaker were someone who was even more offensive in ideology but not threatening to any particular students (e.g. Jared Taylor).
 
Just ignore that the troll is planning to put out names and locations of potential targets for his followers...while of course not encouraging them to take any action against these people. As long as it isn't you being fronted out and put at risk there's no reason to "play into their hands," amIrite?
 
Advocating violence
If that little <snip> was going to out undocumented and trans students, opening them up for devastating consequences, then I don't particularly give a <snip>.

Milo wants to be a badass? He can take the knuckle sandwich/crowbar to the face.

This wouldn't be appropriate for a run-of-the-mill conservative, and it may not even be appropriate here, but it's way more understandable if it's this guy.

Moderator Action: Once again, advocating violence is not acceptable. FP
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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Bootstoots said:
I It is not at all clear to me that the avenues for peaceful disruption of his event had been blocked such that Black Bloc tactics were the only available option....
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In fact, they were not blocked. Only about 150 people were in the violent Black Block. The vast majority of the protestors were peaceful. The 150 thugs occluded any success that the peaceful protestors may have been able to achieve on their own.
 
Free speech and tolerance are acts of mass cooperation that assume good faith. They don't apply to those who want to subvert and destroy these values and use them against themselves.

Debating fascists is as useful as debating creationists.
 
BvBPL said:
In fact, they were not blocked. Only about 150 people were in the violent Black Block. The vast majority of the protestors were peaceful. The 150 thugs occluded any success that the peaceful protestors may have been able to achieve on their own.
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Yes, that's generally true of protest movements overall. The Black Bloc undermines most of the protests they appear at. Anywhere there isn't a specific and immediate risk like this, they generally serve to discredit the protest and reduce popular support.

I don't know the details of this case, but when it is critical to stop someone from exposing people to violence, Black Bloc tactics can work where peaceful protests don't, by making so that the people holding the event cannot ensure the speaker's safety. Rioting is usually a very bad idea, but in this particular instance it may have been beneficial.
 
Bootstoots said:
If the major concern is that the speaker is going to name specific students as either trans or undocumented, which will greatly increase their chances of suffering violence and social exclusion, then he actually does have to be stopped from speaking in order to protect the safety of those students. It is not at all clear to me that the avenues for peaceful disruption of his event had been blocked such that Black Bloc tactics were the only available option, but the justification for them being used here is much stronger than they would have been if the speaker were someone who was even more offensive in ideology but not threatening to any particular students (e.g. Jared Taylor).
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I agree about trans (assuming it is what would be named and not other, legal issues), but i am not seeing how it is rational to allow students who used fake degree/name/status/other to remain as students of the uni. It is sort of a mockery of studying, no? Why should others send real documents?
Eg when i applied to be a student in the uni of Essex, i sent copies of my ID, grades in secondary education, bio etc. Don't think i would be allowed in uni if there illegally or should be allowed to stay if i had forged stuff.
 
Kyriakos said:
I agree about trans (assuming it is what would be named and not other, legal issues), but i am not seeing how it is rational to allow students who used fake degree/name/status/other to remain as students of the uni. It is sort of a mockery of studying, no? Why should others send real documents?
Eg when i applied to be a student in the uni of Essex, i sent copies of my ID, grades in secondary education, bio etc. Don't think i would be allowed in uni if there illegally.
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There is no requirement to show citizenship documentation to enroll in a university in California. The revealing of a student's citizenship status is therefore not a "legal issue," just an invasion of their privacy in an effort to cause them harm.
 
BvBPL said:
In fact, they were not blocked. Only about 150 people were in the violent Black Block. The vast majority of the protestors were peaceful. The 150 thugs occluded any success that the peaceful protestors may have been able to achieve on their own.
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This conclusion seems incorrect. It is unlikely peaceful protesters would have been able to have the event cancelled and Milo's "outing" of students stopped. Only by threatening his security were they able to end the event and prevent the harm, which peaceful protests would likely not have been able to achieve.

This is not to say that destructive protest is to be condoned unconditionally, but in this case at least it can't be said that it didn't achieve something good. Much like how I don't generally condone the punching of people for odious speech, but see the good in punching Nazis if it drives them to be less bold in their calls for mass murder.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
There is no requirement to show citizenship documentation to enroll in a university in California. The revealing of a student's citizenship status is therefore not a "legal issue," just an invasion of their privacy in an effort to cause them harm.
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Don't you have to make an application? Surely that involves your grades and from where you graduated to allow for back checks?

There is also the issue that (university) education is usually paid for by the state, which uses taxation, which is paid by citizens. Being illegally there is just creating a host of problems.
 
Bootstoots said:
Yes, that's generally true of protest movements overall. The Black Bloc undermines most of the protests they appear at. Anywhere there isn't a specific and immediate risk like this, they generally serve to discredit the protest and reduce popular support.

I don't know the details of this case, but when it is critical to stop someone from exposing people to violence, Black Bloc tactics can work where peaceful protests don't, by making so that the people holding the event cannot ensure the speaker's safety. Rioting is usually a very bad idea, but in this particular instance it may have been beneficial.
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Likely as not, the term undocumented refers to immigration status of the student. A university is not necessarily obliged to ensure that a student has a legal right to be in the country. As such, people in the US without that right can and do attend universities here. So to call out a student as undocumented probably means to name students who do not have a legal right to be present in the US.


Kyriakos said:
I agree about trans (assuming it is what would be named and not other, legal issues), but i am not seeing how it is rational to allow students who used fake degree/name/status/other to remain as students of the uni. It is sort of a mockery of studying, no? Why should others send real documents?
Eg when i applied to be a student in the uni of Essex, i sent copies of my ID, grades in secondary education, bio etc. Don't think i would be allowed in uni if there illegally or should be allowed to stay if i had forged stuff.
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The theory that the violent protests stopped Yainnopoulos from naming those student is complete speculation.


Furthermore, even if violence is acceptable to defend innocent third-parties from immediate harm then the violent riot still fails that measure because other non-violent means of providing security to those students existed.
 
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