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Better City Specialization 1.5

Overhauls the district system to require more city specialization.

  1. Early Memphis

    Early Memphis Chieftain

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    View attachment 458574

    Brand new here, and new to Civ VI (first test playthrough) - and the thread I joined to ask a question of appears closed - so I'll try here. What are the Blue Stars on the district placement screen? In the screen cap I’m going to hopefully post, the best (not great) spot for a Commercial Hub is below (touching) the city center on the left (marsh). There’s one blue star arrow (from the city center) (nothing from the end of the river timber mill square :( ). Does that mean a slight (???) bonus from the city center? If you see a better Commercial Hub placement, feel free to comment. Thanks for any comments/opinions. :(
     

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    Last edited: Nov 12, 2016
  2. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    I have played this mod with Improved Water Tile Yields, 8 Ages of Pace, and AI+ (not Combined AI) and have never had any sort of conflicts. It doesn't touch any techs, so doesn't conflict with any tech tree mods and doesn't change any UI features, so it wouldn't conflict with CQUI. It doesn't change any units, so shouldn't conflict with MOAR Units...I don't really know what to tell you, sorry :confused:

    City Centers have one slot for air units, so unless that's already filled you won't need to move them away.

    Brazil receives extra adjacency bonuses from rainforests which other civs don't get, so that would explain the difference there :) That would be "working as intended".

    The blue starts show minor adjacency bonuses. Most districts will receive a +0.5 adjacency bonus for every adjacent district, but it's only applied if there's enough adjacent districts to apply a whole number bonus (so you'll only get the bonus for adjacent districts if there are 2, 4, or 6. It does work if you complete the whole number after building the original district as well, though, so you can actually increase the adjacency bonus over time as you build up your districts.
     
    Early Memphis likes this.
  3. Smogs

    Smogs Chieftain

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    I really like this mod, but I feel like the addition of the Cistern AND the buffed Sewer makes housing way too easy to keep up with. I just played a game through the early Information era, building only a small-to-moderate amount of farms and zero neighborhoods, with absolutely no housing problems at all.

    The idea of neighborhoods and civilizations being able to much more efficiently house their citizens is a pretty important step forward in history, and I don't think being able to ignore them until the very latest stages of the game should be viable. I'll admit that the early-to-mid game housing block is frustrating in the vanilla game, but the Cistern does a great job of fixing that. In my game, having Sewers remain at two housing would have meant that I still would have wanted and needed to build neighborhoods in my three biggest cities right as Urbanization came online.

    I feel like either the Cistern needs removed, or Sewers need to be reduced back to 2 housing.

    Keep up the great work.
     
  4. Littlebob86

    Littlebob86 Chieftain

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    I dropped all of the bonus' by 1. Giving a +3 is huge, most people wouldn't even get that by placing a district correctly
     
  5. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    I have been doing some extensive testing as well and find that I agree with you. I'm considering three changes:
    1. Reducing the Sewer's housing back to 2 (as you suggested)
    2. Lowering the Sewer's cost to something more commensurate with its (original) benefit
    3. Unlocking the Cistern at a later tech, so that it doesn't come quite as quickly.
    Any thoughts as to those changes?

    Which bonuses are you referring to? The specialist yields?
     
  6. Olleus

    Olleus Warlord

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    Do you know if the AI uses specialists at well/well/too often?

    Trying to figure out how some of these changes affect the AI and its ability to keep up
     
  7. Smogs

    Smogs Chieftain

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    I absolutely agree with 1 and 2. I do not, however, agree with 3. Warning: wall of text with long explanations and recommendations incoming.

    Cisterns as a means of water storage were used as early as 4000 BC, and as a system of drainage/early sewage around 500 BC, so coming any later than the Classical era wouldn't make historical sense. Really, they should come in the late Ancient era for historical accuracy. Which would be fine as no one would ever build one before then anyway.

    I would actually consider moving Cistern forward to Irrigation or Masonry. Yes, it's even earlier than Engineering, but:
    • It's more historically accurate (and you would need to utilize cisterns for neolithic era irrigation, or stonework to build them in the first place)

    • It forces you to make a decision and actually try to get it. Engineering you're always going to get. Irrigation and Masonry may not be things you get right away. So putting Cistern in a less common tech adds an (albeit small) amount of strategy and decision making to its acquisition. Acquiring the tech may be an opportunity cost in itself depending upon the game.

    • Cistern being available earlier is irrelevant as far as balance is concerned because you likely won't need to build one until late Classical, regardless. So the only effective way to occasionally delay it is either have it somewhere grossly historically inaccurate (late medieval) or have it in a less common tech that isn't always immediately acquired (such as Irrigation or Masonry) with a higher production cost. But as I explain below, I think it should be available when you most need it (late Classical/early Medieval).
    I think the problem I described in my first post is solely Sewers being so high in housing. I'm of the opinion that viable housing options should be available if you choose to pursue them, and that each housing building/upgrade has its own identifiable niche. Cistern helps fill that early-mid game gap where you would normally feel like you have to spam builders and farms in your bigger cities just to keep up on housing, which is frustrating and not at all fun gameplay. If Cistern doesn't fill that late-Classical to Medieval housing drought, I don't see it as having a niche or being necessary. My only problem with Cistern+4housing Sewer is that in combination they make the dedicated housing district irrelevant in all but the largest cities, and only in games that probably should have already ended by the time you build them.

    I have two proposed recommendations for your next build.

    The first contains mostly simple reversions:

    1. Move Cistern into Irrigation or Masonry for historical accuracy and to force the occasional opportunity cost for acquisition (I like Masonry)
    2. Reduce Sewer's housing back to 2
    3. Return Sewer back to original price​

    Alternatively, my personal recommendation expands the niche of the Cistern and Sewer. This proposal makes them slightly more culturally accurate to their roles in history, as well as making them slightly more interesting/utilitarian:

    1. Move Cistern into Irrigation or Masonry for historical accuracy and to force the occasional opportunity cost for acquisition (I like Masonry)
    2. Increase Cistern's amenities to 1
    3. Reduce Sewer's housing to 2
    4. Increase Sewer's amenities to 1
    5. Set the cost for both as appropriate​

    This yields:
    Cistern: 2 Housing, 1 Amenity, 100 hammers (same base price as aqueduct)
    Sewer: 2 Housing, 1 Amenity, 500 hammers (approx 25% increase from base Sewer)
    These changes have both historic and mechanical justification.

    Historically, sewage and plumbing are certainly as much luxuries and quality of life improvements as they are logistical ones. I don't think I need to point out how dirty and disgusting societies without some form of sewage system are. Needless to say, not only does housing and health improve with sewage systems, but people are certainly going to be considerably happier when they're not literally living in their own ****. Historical Example

    Mechanically, having hammer costs inline with equivalent districts/buildings will make the Cistern an opportunity cost investment that will require more delicate timing and more consideration than just spamming it out quickly and cheaply. It does become better than the aqueduct in a city that already has fresh water, but that does make logical sense. In a city where you already have ample fresh water, what would be more beneficial: a functional-but-primitive sewage system, or more fresh water?

    This also allows you to place it earlier in the tech tree, such as in Irrigation or Masonry as recommended above, without worrying about it being built too early due to being fairly cost-prohibitive in the Ancient/Early Classical era. At 2H 1A for 50 hammers vs Roman's Baths of 4-8H 1A at 25 hammers, you can see it's still pretty costly, but gives everyone an early amenities option without stepping on the Roman's Housing+Amenities niche. As can be seen, Baths are far superior to this version of Cisterns, not to mention the fact Romans can (and historically did) build both.

    The Roman/Carthaginian cisterns, plumbing, and aqueducts were very elaborate and luxurious pieces of architecture that were an incredible feat for the time. I feel that should be reflected by their in game bonuses and construction time.

    "The extraordinary greatness of the Roman Empire manifests itself above all in three things: the aqueducts, the paved roads, and the construction of the drains."
    -Dionysius of Halicarnassus


     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  8. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    I honestly am not sure...I've forgotten to check enemy cities I've captured to see if any citizens are I'm the specialist slots. I'm not sure how you would check otherwise.
     
  9. Daft73

    Daft73 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Great werks TCS! I am liking your little mods here and there. :cheers:
     
  10. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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  11. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    So I've taken part of your recommendation :) Sewers now provide +2 housing and +1 amenity. I've also added a third tier to the chain (the Water Treatment Plant) which you get in the Atomic Era.

    I've left the Cistern as it is right now...I've played multiple games with it and it feels good where it is...but I'll continue to think about where it unlocks. I'm not sure I want it unlocked quite as early as Irrigation, but I'll do a few more playtests and see.
     
  12. Smogs

    Smogs Chieftain

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    I'm starting up a new game right now, so I'll give it a spin. I like the /idea/ of the Water Treatment Plant, but I don't know that I particularly support a late game City Center building providing more housing. That starts to run into the same problem as the 4 housing Sewer: that it starts to infringe on the role and purpose of the neighborhood, especially considering that a neighborhood takes a tile, and the building (obviously) does not.
     
  13. Mynex

    Mynex Chieftain

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    Just did a quick search on cistern history, cisterns were around before irrigation (which I did not know!);
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistern

    I get the needs of balanced game play though, but honestly, after reading that entry... I think I'd drop it with Pottery and maybe require it to be not by a river, lake, or the sea to be built. Or maybe only built on hills and desert tiles?
     
  14. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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  15. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    All right, after some further thought I've gone ahead and moved the Cistern to Irrigation. I like the idea of the opportunity cost of researching a dead-end tech to get it. Plus, this will eventually work better with my Buffed Resources mod by providing some earlier housing to compensate for some changes I'm making to the Granary in that mod ;)

    In regards to the Water Treatment Plant, I certainly see the need not to infringe upon the neighborhood, but given the cost and limited housing provided by the Water Treatment Plant (it costs as much as a Stadium to build, so it's a significant investment), it seems to me that it will be most useful in cities without the space for a neighborhood, while cities with the space will actually find it more cost effective to build neighborhoods still. At least that's my intention :p
     
  16. Smogs

    Smogs Chieftain

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    This isn't entirely accurate. Persians were historically the earliest evident culture that utilized seasonal irrigation methods as far back as 6000-5000 BCE. The earliest and most primitive cisterns that have been found are from circa 4000 BCE.

    :thumbsup:
     
  17. Mynex

    Mynex Chieftain

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    Well I did say I did a quick search. :D Whenever it first appeared, it seems appropriate that it end up at pottery, and now it is! ;)
     
  18. qqqbbb

    qqqbbb Chieftain

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    When you start game in late era, your cities get free sewer but no cistern.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
  19. Buni0ns

    Buni0ns Chieftain

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    -Adds new Cistern building: +2 Housing, unlocked at Engineering, required to build Sewers (NOTE: there is no icon in the tech tree and there is a randomized one in the city screen...this is due to current modding limitations)

    Why not use the sewer icon for now for the cistern and water treatment plant for the time being?
     
  20. thecrazyscot

    thecrazyscot Spiffy

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    That has already been implemented ;)

    Added to my to do list. Thanks!
     

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