Better City Specialization

Better City Specialization 1.5

I really like this mod, but I feel like the addition of the Cistern AND the buffed Sewer makes housing way too easy to keep up with. I just played a game through the early Information era, building only a small-to-moderate amount of farms and zero neighborhoods, with absolutely no housing problems at all.

The idea of neighborhoods and civilizations being able to much more efficiently house their citizens is a pretty important step forward in history, and I don't think being able to ignore them until the very latest stages of the game should be viable. I'll admit that the early-to-mid game housing block is frustrating in the vanilla game, but the Cistern does a great job of fixing that. In my game, having Sewers remain at two housing would have meant that I still would have wanted and needed to build neighborhoods in my three biggest cities right as Urbanization came online.

I feel like either the Cistern needs removed, or Sewers need to be reduced back to 2 housing.

Keep up the great work.
 
I dropped all of the bonus' by 1. Giving a +3 is huge, most people wouldn't even get that by placing a district correctly
 
I really like this mod, but I feel like the addition of the Cistern AND the buffed Sewer makes housing way too easy to keep up with. I just played a game through the early Information era, building only a small-to-moderate amount of farms and zero neighborhoods, with absolutely no housing problems at all.

The idea of neighborhoods and civilizations being able to much more efficiently house their citizens is a pretty important step forward in history, and I don't think being able to ignore them until the very latest stages of the game should be viable. I'll admit that the early-to-mid game housing block is frustrating in the vanilla game, but the Cistern does a great job of fixing that. In my game, having Sewers remain at two housing would have meant that I still would have wanted and needed to build neighborhoods in my three biggest cities right as Urbanization came online.

I feel like either the Cistern needs removed, or Sewers need to be reduced back to 2 housing.

Keep up the great work.

I have been doing some extensive testing as well and find that I agree with you. I'm considering three changes:
  1. Reducing the Sewer's housing back to 2 (as you suggested)
  2. Lowering the Sewer's cost to something more commensurate with its (original) benefit
  3. Unlocking the Cistern at a later tech, so that it doesn't come quite as quickly.
Any thoughts as to those changes?

I dropped all of the bonus' by 1. Giving a +3 is huge, most people wouldn't even get that by placing a district correctly

Which bonuses are you referring to? The specialist yields?
 
I have been doing some extensive testing as well and find that I agree with you. I'm considering three changes:
  1. Reducing the Sewer's housing back to 2 (as you suggested)
  2. Lowering the Sewer's cost to something more commensurate with its (original) benefit
  3. Unlocking the Cistern at a later tech, so that it doesn't come quite as quickly.
Any thoughts as to those changes?

I absolutely agree with 1 and 2. I do not, however, agree with 3. Warning: wall of text with long explanations and recommendations incoming.

Cisterns as a means of water storage were used as early as 4000 BC, and as a system of drainage/early sewage around 500 BC, so coming any later than the Classical era wouldn't make historical sense. Really, they should come in the late Ancient era for historical accuracy. Which would be fine as no one would ever build one before then anyway.

I would actually consider moving Cistern forward to Irrigation or Masonry. Yes, it's even earlier than Engineering, but:
  • It's more historically accurate (and you would need to utilize cisterns for neolithic era irrigation, or stonework to build them in the first place)

  • It forces you to make a decision and actually try to get it. Engineering you're always going to get. Irrigation and Masonry may not be things you get right away. So putting Cistern in a less common tech adds an (albeit small) amount of strategy and decision making to its acquisition. Acquiring the tech may be an opportunity cost in itself depending upon the game.

  • Cistern being available earlier is irrelevant as far as balance is concerned because you likely won't need to build one until late Classical, regardless. So the only effective way to occasionally delay it is either have it somewhere grossly historically inaccurate (late medieval) or have it in a less common tech that isn't always immediately acquired (such as Irrigation or Masonry) with a higher production cost. But as I explain below, I think it should be available when you most need it (late Classical/early Medieval).
I think the problem I described in my first post is solely Sewers being so high in housing. I'm of the opinion that viable housing options should be available if you choose to pursue them, and that each housing building/upgrade has its own identifiable niche. Cistern helps fill that early-mid game gap where you would normally feel like you have to spam builders and farms in your bigger cities just to keep up on housing, which is frustrating and not at all fun gameplay. If Cistern doesn't fill that late-Classical to Medieval housing drought, I don't see it as having a niche or being necessary. My only problem with Cistern+4housing Sewer is that in combination they make the dedicated housing district irrelevant in all but the largest cities, and only in games that probably should have already ended by the time you build them.

I have two proposed recommendations for your next build.

The first contains mostly simple reversions:

1. Move Cistern into Irrigation or Masonry for historical accuracy and to force the occasional opportunity cost for acquisition (I like Masonry)
2. Reduce Sewer's housing back to 2
3. Return Sewer back to original price​

Alternatively, my personal recommendation expands the niche of the Cistern and Sewer. This proposal makes them slightly more culturally accurate to their roles in history, as well as making them slightly more interesting/utilitarian:

1. Move Cistern into Irrigation or Masonry for historical accuracy and to force the occasional opportunity cost for acquisition (I like Masonry)
2. Increase Cistern's amenities to 1
3. Reduce Sewer's housing to 2
4. Increase Sewer's amenities to 1
5. Set the cost for both as appropriate​

This yields:
Cistern: 2 Housing, 1 Amenity, 100 hammers (same base price as aqueduct)
Sewer: 2 Housing, 1 Amenity, 500 hammers (approx 25% increase from base Sewer)
These changes have both historic and mechanical justification.

Historically, sewage and plumbing are certainly as much luxuries and quality of life improvements as they are logistical ones. I don't think I need to point out how dirty and disgusting societies without some form of sewage system are. Needless to say, not only does housing and health improve with sewage systems, but people are certainly going to be considerably happier when they're not literally living in their own ****. Historical Example

Mechanically, having hammer costs inline with equivalent districts/buildings will make the Cistern an opportunity cost investment that will require more delicate timing and more consideration than just spamming it out quickly and cheaply. It does become better than the aqueduct in a city that already has fresh water, but that does make logical sense. In a city where you already have ample fresh water, what would be more beneficial: a functional-but-primitive sewage system, or more fresh water?

This also allows you to place it earlier in the tech tree, such as in Irrigation or Masonry as recommended above, without worrying about it being built too early due to being fairly cost-prohibitive in the Ancient/Early Classical era. At 2H 1A for 50 hammers vs Roman's Baths of 4-8H 1A at 25 hammers, you can see it's still pretty costly, but gives everyone an early amenities option without stepping on the Roman's Housing+Amenities niche. As can be seen, Baths are far superior to this version of Cisterns, not to mention the fact Romans can (and historically did) build both.

The Roman/Carthaginian cisterns, plumbing, and aqueducts were very elaborate and luxurious pieces of architecture that were an incredible feat for the time. I feel that should be reflected by their in game bonuses and construction time.

"The extraordinary greatness of the Roman Empire manifests itself above all in three things: the aqueducts, the paved roads, and the construction of the drains."
-Dionysius of Halicarnassus

 
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Do you know if the AI uses specialists at well/well/too often?

Trying to figure out how some of these changes affect the AI and its ability to keep up
I honestly am not sure...I've forgotten to check enemy cities I've captured to see if any citizens are I'm the specialist slots. I'm not sure how you would check otherwise.
 
I absolutely agree with 1 and 2. I do not, however, agree with 3. Warning: wall of text with long explanations and recommendations incoming.

Cisterns as a means of water storage were used as early as 4000 BC, and as a system of drainage/early sewage around 500 BC, so coming any later than the Classical era wouldn't make historical sense. Really, they should come in the late Ancient era for historical accuracy. Which would be fine as no one would ever build one before then anyway.

I would actually consider moving Cistern forward to Irrigation or Masonry. Yes, it's even earlier than Engineering, but:
  • It's more historically accurate (and you would need to utilize cisterns for neolithic era irrigation, or stonework to build them in the first place)

  • It forces you to make a decision and actually try to get it. Engineering you're always going to get. Irrigation and Masonry may not be things you get right away. So putting Cistern in a less common tech adds an (albeit small) amount of strategy and decision making to its acquisition. Acquiring the tech may be an opportunity cost in itself depending upon the game.

  • Cistern being available earlier is irrelevant as far as balance is concerned because you likely won't need to build one until late Classical, regardless. So the only effective way to occasionally delay it is either have it somewhere grossly historically inaccurate (late medieval) or have it in a less common tech that isn't always immediately acquired (such as Irrigation or Masonry) with a higher production cost. But as I explain below, I think it should be available when you most need it (late Classical/early Medieval).
I think the problem I described in my first post is solely Sewers being so high in housing. I'm of the opinion that viable housing options should be available if you choose to pursue them, and that each housing building/upgrade has its own identifiable niche. Cistern helps fill that early-mid game gap where you would normally feel like you have to spam builders and farms in your bigger cities just to keep up on housing, which is frustrating and not at all fun gameplay. If Cistern doesn't fill that late-Classical to Medieval housing drought, I don't see it as having a niche or being necessary. My only problem with Cistern+4housing Sewer is that in combination they make the dedicated housing district irrelevant in all but the largest cities, and only in games that probably should have already ended by the time you build them.

I have two proposed recommendations for your next build.

The first contains mostly simple reversions:

1. Move Cistern into Irrigation or Masonry for historical accuracy and to force the occasional opportunity cost for acquisition (I like Masonry)
2. Reduce Sewer's housing back to 2
3. Return Sewer back to original price​

Alternatively, my personal recommendation expands the niche of the Cistern and Sewer. This proposal makes them slightly more culturally accurate to their roles in history, as well as making them slightly more interesting/utilitarian:

1. Move Cistern into Irrigation or Masonry for historical accuracy and to force the occasional opportunity cost for acquisition (I like Masonry)
2. Increase Cistern's amenities to 1
3. Reduce Sewer's housing to 2
4. Increase Sewer's amenities to 1
5. Set the cost for both as appropriate​

This yields:
Cistern: 2 Housing, 1 Amenity, 100 hammers (same base price as aqueduct)
Sewer: 2 Housing, 1 Amenity, 500 hammers (approx 25% increase from base Sewer)
These changes have both historic and mechanical justification.

Historically, sewage and plumbing are certainly as much luxuries and quality of life improvements as they are logistical ones. I don't think I need to point out how dirty and disgusting societies without some form of sewage system are. Needless to say, not only does housing and health improve with sewage systems, but people are certainly going to be considerably happier when they're not literally living in their own ****. Historical Example

Mechanically, having hammer costs inline with equivalent districts/buildings will make the Cistern an opportunity cost investment that will require more delicate timing and more consideration than just spamming it out quickly and cheaply. It does become better than the aqueduct in a city that already has fresh water, but that does make logical sense. In a city where you already have ample fresh water, what would be more beneficial: a functional-but-primitive sewage system, or more fresh water?

This also allows you to place it earlier in the tech tree, such as in Irrigation or Masonry as recommended above, without worrying about it being built too early due to being fairly cost-prohibitive in the Ancient/Early Classical era. At 2H 1A for 50 hammers vs Roman's Baths of 4-8H 1A at 25 hammers, you can see it's still pretty costly, but gives everyone an early amenities option without stepping on the Roman's Housing+Amenities niche. As can be seen, Baths are far superior to this version of Cisterns, not to mention the fact Romans can (and historically did) build both.

The Roman/Carthaginian cisterns, plumbing, and aqueducts were very elaborate and luxurious pieces of architecture that were an incredible feat for the time. I feel that should be reflected by their in game bonuses and construction time.

"The extraordinary greatness of the Roman Empire manifests itself above all in three things: the aqueducts, the paved roads, and the construction of the drains."
-Dionysius of Halicarnassus

So I've taken part of your recommendation :) Sewers now provide +2 housing and +1 amenity. I've also added a third tier to the chain (the Water Treatment Plant) which you get in the Atomic Era.

I've left the Cistern as it is right now...I've played multiple games with it and it feels good where it is...but I'll continue to think about where it unlocks. I'm not sure I want it unlocked quite as early as Irrigation, but I'll do a few more playtests and see.
 
So I've taken part of your recommendation :) Sewers now provide +2 housing and +1 amenity. I've also added a third tier to the chain (the Water Treatment Plant) which you get in the Atomic Era.

I'm starting up a new game right now, so I'll give it a spin. I like the /idea/ of the Water Treatment Plant, but I don't know that I particularly support a late game City Center building providing more housing. That starts to run into the same problem as the 4 housing Sewer: that it starts to infringe on the role and purpose of the neighborhood, especially considering that a neighborhood takes a tile, and the building (obviously) does not.
 
I've left the Cistern as it is right now...I've played multiple games with it and it feels good where it is...but I'll continue to think about where it unlocks. I'm not sure I want it unlocked quite as early as Irrigation, but I'll do a few more playtests and see.

Just did a quick search on cistern history, cisterns were around before irrigation (which I did not know!);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistern

I get the needs of balanced game play though, but honestly, after reading that entry... I think I'd drop it with Pottery and maybe require it to be not by a river, lake, or the sea to be built. Or maybe only built on hills and desert tiles?
 
All right, after some further thought I've gone ahead and moved the Cistern to Irrigation. I like the idea of the opportunity cost of researching a dead-end tech to get it. Plus, this will eventually work better with my Buffed Resources mod by providing some earlier housing to compensate for some changes I'm making to the Granary in that mod ;)

In regards to the Water Treatment Plant, I certainly see the need not to infringe upon the neighborhood, but given the cost and limited housing provided by the Water Treatment Plant (it costs as much as a Stadium to build, so it's a significant investment), it seems to me that it will be most useful in cities without the space for a neighborhood, while cities with the space will actually find it more cost effective to build neighborhoods still. At least that's my intention :P
 
Just did a quick search on cistern history, cisterns were around before irrigation (which I did not know!);
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistern

This isn't entirely accurate. Persians were historically the earliest evident culture that utilized seasonal irrigation methods as far back as 6000-5000 BCE. The earliest and most primitive cisterns that have been found are from circa 4000 BCE.

All right, after some further thought I've gone ahead and moved the Cistern to Irrigation.

:thumbsup:
 
This isn't entirely accurate. Persians were historically the earliest evident culture that utilized seasonal irrigation methods as far back as 6000-5000 BCE. The earliest and most primitive cisterns that have been found are from circa 4000 BCE.

Well I did say I did a quick search. :D Whenever it first appeared, it seems appropriate that it end up at pottery, and now it is! ;)
 
When you start game in late era, your cities get free sewer but no cistern.
 
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-Adds new Cistern building: +2 Housing, unlocked at Engineering, required to build Sewers (NOTE: there is no icon in the tech tree and there is a randomized one in the city screen...this is due to current modding limitations)

Why not use the sewer icon for now for the cistern and water treatment plant for the time being?
 
-Adds new Cistern building: +2 Housing, unlocked at Engineering, required to build Sewers (NOTE: there is no icon in the tech tree and there is a randomized one in the city screen...this is due to current modding limitations)

Why not use the sewer icon for now for the cistern and water treatment plant for the time being?
That has already been implemented ;)

When you start game in late era, your cities get free sewer but no cistern.
Added to my to do list. Thanks!
 
That has already been implemented ;)

Nice.

I am an avid fan of your mods I think omnibus is a grand idea BUT (there is always a but right?) please retain the modularity as well. It grants flexibility.

Oddly enough my next suggestion flies directly counter to my previous advice.

Have you seen https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/quos-pre-patch-tile-yield-and-building-cost-adjuster.603053/ ?

I'd advocate a similar approach to tiles if not an outright incorporation / collaboration with this mod.

Thanks for being awesome.
 
@Buni0ns I'll do my best to retain modularity :)

For everyone: I've been playing quite a few games with this mod, and have a few questions for you all.
  • Are district adjacency bonuses now overpowered? For example, does the Factory provide too much production when the district is placed well?
  • Do you find yourself using the policies which increase district adjacency bonuses by 100% in every game, almost regardless of situation?
  • Do you find yourself building a greater diversity of districts as compared to vanilla?
Since creating the Buffed Resources mod component I've been considering ways to address some of the shortcomings (as I see them) with this mod by essentially combining the two. I fear that the adjacency bonuses are now running the show, as it were. Perhaps all that is needed is a revamp of those policy cards. Not sure yet. Comments, suggestions?
 
Power creep and the AI being unable to use these advantages are certainly 2 major concerns for these mods. I haven't tested enough to comment yet but will be having a look.
 
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