Betting and Speculation - The "Entirely Separate Hypercube" Civ!

[Seek]

Hey, I didn't say anything about a bombshell or Venice being my favorite The post had some effects like "oooohhh" but that was mainly because I was reading them first time as I wrote them=)

Trying to avoid commenting but I openly said this in post: In my version you can only play as Morocco and your enemies are Brazil, Indonesia, Zulu, Poland and Assyria. So I read most of the info from civipedia

They may not be the finalized versions of these civs then.


(Not that I'm going to judge whether they're good until they are actually revealed. Venice sounds interesting.)

 

[Talcove]

I've had it happen once or twice with Carthage, so I'll put out this scenario right here; a land-locked Venetian capital.

 

[Sir Parsifal]

What I'm really hoping is this: Venice can also buy units in its puppet cities. If they could do that, then I think they would be one of the best civilizations.

 

[Crodface]

I've had it happen once or twice with Carthage, so I'll put out this scenario right here; a land-locked Venetian capital.

Yes, this would make their UA very lackluster. I didn't even think about that.

God I hope they can at least settle cities.

 

[Gucumatz]

Well it appears they saved the worst 2 civs for last was about time we got truly what the heck civs in Civ 5 (although you could call the citynameless Huns a 'what the heck' civ too).

 

[Talcove]

Well it appears they saved the worst 2 civs for last was about time we got truly what the heck civs in Civ 5 (although you could call the citynameless Huns a 'what the heck' civ too).

Eh, with the Huns it's more of an aesthetic 'What the Heck!'.

 

[Al-Iskander]

Shoshone =/= Comanche.

Perhaps, but Norway (Ski Infantry) =/= Denmark and Sweden =/=Finland (Hakkapeliitta).

This would not be the first time, for better or for worse

 

[Louis XXIV]

^ Yeah, I have no problem with the Shoshone including others from the same Shoshone family, like the Comanche. They weren't one unified tribe anyway (at a minimum, all sources have the Eastern and Western Shoshone separate). At best, it's like the Danes and Swedes, at worse it's like the Polynesians and Celts. In no way is it "The Native Americans."

I wonder if I can get that $30 off that guy who said Venice wasn't going to be in now?

Hopefully the mods can sort this out quickly, not because I want to know the remaining two civs, but because that $30 can be put towards cheap wine and taco ingredients.

Or you can use the $30 to buy BNW

My question would be, regardless of what the mystery civ is (this isn't supposed to be a Venice thread, after all), how would a civ that can only puppet other cities produce enough military units to survive? With a true OCC there's only so much to defend, but trying to control a vast puppet empire without at least 2 or 3 cities to make units can be a major struggle above Prince difficulty.

Also, the lack of directed building beyond rush-buying would seem to crush any attempt at long-term strategy.... how do you plan ahead when half the time you don't know what you'll be building next?

Well, you can still build stuff in your capital. You rush elsewhere. I get the impression gold won't be too much of a difficulty. What I do hope is a way to get a heads up if your puppets start something new so you can decide if you want to buy it instead. Another nice thing is puppet cities don't count for National Wonder building requirements.

 

[Gucumatz]

The difference though is that both the finnish and Norwegian units were used under their respective civs, weren't they? The Comanche even in the 1400-1600 era were a fairly distinct group of bands that had emigrated southward for a long time from the Shoshone. By Europeans they were finally considered as a distinct people in the mid 1600s, but they themselves and the Shoshone knew they were distinct long before that (see the Comanche raids against the Shoshone IE)

The Shoshone never had Comanche Raiders during their "civ". Their civ (Shoshone) never reached more than 10k people either. Its as if they didn't learn a thing from the mess of a Native American Empire from Civ 4

 

[Mr.Huggins]

Forum lurker here, thought I might weigh in my opinion.
Like many I hated the idea at first, but I think this civ would be incredible. Think about it, Venice would have a massive population and probably enough science and culture and gold to out do entire civilizations and would have the puppets as well. And there would be so many resources because city-states start up around a number of valuable resources I've noticed. I think we're underestimating this civ and it could be among the most powerful ever.

 

[Sir Parsifal]

After a bit of thought, I really really really hope the UA allows you to rushbuy units in puppet cities as well as rushbuying buildings. Because if your capital is landlocked and you can't rushbuy a trade ship for your coastal puppet, then that's not good at all. And if your capital landlocked and you can't rushbuy your unique Galleass, then that's also not good.

 

[kingchris20]

Hey, I didn't say anything about a bombshell or Venice being my favorite The post had some effects like "oooohhh" but that was mainly because I was reading them first time as I wrote them=)

Trying to avoid commenting but I openly said this in post: In my version you can only play as Morocco and your enemies are Brazil, Indonesia, Zulu, Poland and Assyria. So I read most of the info from civipedia

It was another review on IGN, where a guy used the term "bombshell" and "his favorite civ" that he couldn't reveal

And what about those screenshots? Post them!

 

[Arkangelus]

Some hilarious trolling could be done if Venice has a single-city list like the Huns do. Either rename your capital Venice(/Venezia) on your first turn or even if you manually insert two Venices onto your map. With no city list beyond their capital, they'll take names from low down other countries lists... leading the Capital of the Serene Republic of Venice to be like... Peterborough.

 

[wigwam]

This sounds possibly bogus, but a couple thoughts if it's true:

The Native American Axeman for the barbarians—maybe they've added several new Barbarian UUs from different cultural groups. The Brute is vaguely Germanic; the Axeman seems Native American. How about a Middle Eastern or Central Asian horse unit? An African archery unit? An East Asian or Southeast Asian spear unit?

The Shoshone Scout ability could be that instead of giving you one random bonus, it presents you a choice between two random bonuses. Not as OP as giving you a free tech or a free citizen every time, but it would mean you almost never had to take a dud (local map, locations of nearby barb camps). I'd actually quite enjoy that.

As for Venice, well, it does sound disappointing. The military UU sounds boring as hell; the unique GM is a sensible idea, but this doesn't sound like a good way to implement it. It also sounds weird that after patching Austria to make it impossible for them to just swipe a CS out of the blue, they'd add Venice with that ability all over again. Shouldn't it require five turns of alliance or something? Maybe it can only be used on a City-State that isn't allied with anybody; that'd help differentiate it from Austria.

The OCC aspect of Venice actually sounds potentially quite powerful to me. If you can buy units in puppet cities and you're bringing in twice as much trade money as anybody else in the game, you're setting pretty.

 

[Al-Iskander]

The difference though is that both the finnish and Norwegian units were used under their respective civs, weren't they?

"Norwegian Ski Infantry" was by definition never used by Denmark. Still, you have a point about the Hakkapeliitta.

As for the Comanche, what little I know about them comes from their Wikipedia article (totally trustworthy, right?) which says the separation from the Shoshone "coincided" with acquiring horses.

Clearly I was not present to observe the ethnogenesis of the Comanche people (for whatever the concept of ethnogenesis is worth), but I don't know that including them under the Shoshone would be that different from the Celtic blob.

 

[Seek]

What I'm really hoping is this: Venice can also buy units in its puppet cities. If they could do that, then I think they would be one of the best civilizations.

Arkangel said you could buy "things" in puppets, I assume that includes units. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=12507719&postcount=724

Well, you can still build stuff in your capital. You rush elsewhere. I get the impression gold won't be too much of a difficulty. What I do hope is a way to get a heads up if your puppets start something new so you can decide if you want to buy it instead. Another nice thing is puppet cities don't count for National Wonder building requirements.

Puppets count toward National Wonder hammer cost, iirc, but not building requirements.

 

[kingchris20]

I just don't understand why that reviewer who called Venice his favorite because of a "Bombshell". If that is true (which is doubtful) then what is the bombshell? "I can buy a courthouse in a Puppet city!" = Super Civ

I kinda got the impression that the "serene" civ was separate from the "bombshell" civ

 

[Gucumatz]

Venice, a disappointment to the fans of European Civs

Shoshone, a disappointment to fans of Native American Civs

If the only thing the GM can do is puppet cities, would seem even more lackluster. So if Venice conquers a non city state, does that auto raze?

 

[Louis XXIV]

The difference though is that both the finnish and Norwegian units were used under their respective civs, weren't they? The Comanche even in the 1400-1600 era were a fairly distinct group of bands that had emigrated southward for a long time from the Shoshone. By Europeans they were finally considered as a distinct people in the mid 1600s, but they themselves and the Shoshone knew they were distinct long before that (see the Comanche raids against the Shoshone IE)

The Shoshone never had Comanche Raiders during their "civ". Their civ (Shoshone) never reached more than 10k people either. Its as if they didn't learn a thing from the mess of a Native American Empire from Civ 4

We may have cross-posted. I argued incorporating the Comanche would be more Celts than Native Americans. They shared a similar culture and language, they just weren't at all unified. Both the Shoshone and the Comanche were raiders who showed hierarchy through horse-ownership that they took from neighbors. In that sense, they're not entirely dissimilar.

With the Native Americans, Sitting Bull never saw a Totem Pole in his life, probably never heard of Cahokia (if he did he never went there), and never had Dog Soldiers fight for him and, if he did, he would have to hope there was someone around who could translate.

The Comanche are an off-shoot of the Shoshone, they probably could figure out their languages with at least some effort, and lived a similar lifestyle. Keeping in mind that the Shoshone themselves were not one unified people, including the Western and Eastern Shoshone with the Comanche is not as bad as the Native Americans. It's closer to including the Irish, Scottish, and Welsh together.

 

[Sir Parsifal]

So if Venice conquers a non city state, does that auto raze?

No, from what I understand, they can puppet or raze it like normal, they just cannot annex it. So you could hypothetically puppet everything on a giant conquering spree, and rushbuy units as soon as the cities come out of rebellion.