[Beyond the Sword] History In The Making

[rkade8583]

This looks to be a good 'un. Sniped and I'm gonna play it once it installs. Good on ya!

 

[ruffriders23]

I doubt they will be compatable, as I had to change a few things with Buildings and BuildingClasses.

You can always try... as I personally didn't test backwards compatibility out myself, but I'm leaning more towards "no".

Do you have the Ranged Bombardment codes or file for other mods to use?

 

[Forsaken]

ranged bombardment is the only thing this mod is missing

 

[Kalimakhus]

@Forsaken

Ranged bombardment is already included in HitM.

@ruffriders23

I compiled a DLL with both Dale's Ranged Bombardment and Bhruic's unofficial patch. It is originally tailored for Rise of Mankind mod but it can work with any other mod by replacing the UnitInfos xml file with the one of the target mod and modifying it to give ranged bombardment to suitable units. You can find it here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6932

 

[ruffriders23]

@Forsaken

Ranged bombardment is already included in HitM.

@ruffriders23

I compiled a DLL with both Dale's Ranged Bombardment and Bhruic's unofficial patch. It is originally tailored for Rise of Mankind mod but it can work with any other mod by replacing the UnitInfos xml file with the one of the target mod and modifying it to give ranged bombardment to suitable units. You can find it here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=6932

Thanks, I appreciate it.

 

[Caradoc]

Can someone tell me whether installing this will screw up Fall from Heaven .25?

 

[The Almighty dF]

I hate to say this but...
Quantity over quality.
Your mod -does- add a lot but... what it adds really needs fixing.

Unrealistic civics, unbalanced traits, etc.
At least fix those two.

 

[Kalimakhus]

@charleswatkins

You can install any number of mods without getting any of them screwed up.

@The Almighty dF

It would help if you be more precise about what you see wrong with the mod. For instance what civics are unrealistic and how? Why do you think traits are unbalanced? Suggestions for fixes would also be nice.

 

[Grave]

I hate to say this but...
Quantity over quality.
Your mod -does- add a lot but... what it adds really needs fixing.

Unrealistic civics, unbalanced traits, etc.
At least fix those two.

Kalimakhus is right... you need to be more specific as to what you don't like. It's easy to say civics are unbalanced, unrealistic or what ever. But what is unbalanced? You don't say. The Traits aren't really unbalanced, since I didn't really modify any of them (except Industrious). All I did was add two.

When I have more free time, I know I need to work on Civics as well as Tech costs. Give it time, it'll eventually happen.

And are you saying you prefer Quantity over Quality? If so, then this mod really isn't for you.

 

[mnlg]

Perhaps somebody already brought this up, but I see the possibility for a new corporation. Burger world is a nice idea, but there are already two corporations that provide food (CeMi and SiSu). However I think there could be a corporation based on textiles, using Silk, Cotton, Deer, Sheep, possibly even Fur (even though it gets obsoleted). I think it could provide only culture, or maybe a bit of money, in exchange for... well, money. "Stylization"? (horrendous, I know ;-)

If you ever plan on adding a new religion (Shinto, or even (gasp!) Atheism -- coming at Scientific Method with a small Atom symbol? ;-)) then at least you have a new corporation idea to match the numbers

 

[The Almighty dF]

Financial is... rediculously overpowered.
Even without the faster buildings it's a really powerful trait. Check anywhere on Civfanatics, it's generally agreed upon. Some even want to nerf it beyond that.
Industrious has become a weak trait, falling in with Protective. ...problem with this.

Look at how Firaxis balanced things.
If a leader had a strong UU and UB, he'd have lame traits. Lame UU or UB, they'd get awesome traits.
Changing one good trait into a bad trait without rearranging the traits of all leaders leads to unbalanced leaders (Leaders who are just... outrageously terrible now.)

It's a bad idea to just change around traits without looking into this. Analyze all leaders and their respective civs, and the synergy between their traits, their UB, and their UU.

Civics... are a minor complaint.
Pacifism, Universal Suffrage, Caste System, and Free Market are now over powered while many of the others, including Organized Religion, are now nerfed beyond any bit of usefulness.
It's now too easy for a human player, using the right civics, to suddenly have a giant economy, huge GPP boost, and booming culture.

I'm seeing no balance in this mod, only new features added without thinking about how their additions affect everything else.

 

[Forsaken]

i'm not sure if this was intentional or a bug, but barbs are getting swordsman by 2200 bc and kicking the other civs asses and causeing me lots of problems and nobody has iron working yet most are just getting bronze working or dont have it yet. Just to let you know.

Edit-barbs only get swordmen from random spawns not city's

 

[mikesonic]

Financial is... rediculously overpowered.
Even without the faster buildings it's a really powerful trait. Check anywhere on Civfanatics, it's generally agreed upon. Some even want to nerf it beyond that.
Industrious has become a weak trait, falling in with Protective. ...problem with this.

Look at how Firaxis balanced things.
If a leader had a strong UU and UB, he'd have lame traits. Lame UU or UB, they'd get awesome traits.
Changing one good trait into a bad trait without rearranging the traits of all leaders leads to unbalanced leaders (Leaders who are just... outrageously terrible now.)

It's a bad idea to just change around traits without looking into this. Analyze all leaders and their respective civs, and the synergy between their traits, their UB, and their UU.

Civics... are a minor complaint.
Pacifism, Universal Suffrage, Caste System, and Free Market are now over powered while many of the others, including Organized Religion, are now nerfed beyond any bit of usefulness.
It's now too easy for a human player, using the right civics, to suddenly have a giant economy, huge GPP boost, and booming culture.

I'm seeing no balance in this mod, only new features added without thinking about how their additions affect everything else.

I totally agree with your opinion. I thank the OP for his hard work to bring this mod to us.It's a good mod in many ways and has introduced many new ideas. But it's now too unbalanced.

Besides the unbalanced traits&civic, some of the wonders are also overpowerful while some others are too weak.
For example, the stonehenge not only give free statue but also 1 free specialist in all city. the sphinx allow player to use free religion before 2000BC, Which not only keeps the benefit of the origin version of free religion but also that of old representive civic.

There are also some bug of other wonder, for example ,the Effel Tower doesn't have any special effect.

So I used spiritual&inspiration leader(Ramesses II) in my last game. Since he can switch civic frequently and build this two early wonder easily, He is so powerful that i win the easiest deity game i ever played.

The Texas's UB is also overpowerful(+10% food with cow, which is pretty common in most map). Compared with this: Khmer's UB barray and only 1 food.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

A few things mentioned by others may need a slight rebalance, but since I found out about this mod, I've played it non-stop. It adds LOTS of new aspects, plus corrects (and yes corrects) a lot of things firaxis got wrong (e.g. see those bananas my lad, well we won't be able to eat them for another 3,500 yrs, till we design a calender).

Yes some of the wonders may be a little OP, and I was going to say Horsemen are a little OP, but no, considering the Horse's importance in warfare, I don't think it is. The addition of textiles, and especially the "brewing line" of resources, is pure class, and a lot of techs and buildings/units etc made available with them now make far more sense.

Financial is basically just a screwed up trait in this AND vanilla BTS, this being even more prominent the larger the map.

My point, CIv IV had got quite stale indeed for me before I started playing this mod. I love starting a new game and (dependent on starting traits), seeing often no resources whatsoever. Does my site look promising? Should I risk moving around a bit before settling. Then if I don't have any luxury metals, I might get some Calender resources, or wine, or later sugar or coffee.

So yes, some rebalancing probably due in places, but thanks a bunch for the game as it stands

 

[Donkey Puncher]

I have been away from the forums a while boughtBTS and to try a new mod downloaded the mod and everything went to play it and selected texas and had a ctd what have I done wrong

 

[Kalimakhus]

I agree with DrewBledsoe. HitM is one of the best modpacks for BTS. In brief if it keeps me playing civ4 and having a lot of fun so it is a success for a game or a game mod are all about having fun.

One thing we should remember is that a Mod is always a work in progress. There will always be parts that the modder haven't got enough time yet to look into them. The other thing to remember is that a modpack especially one that is built by a single person rather than a team is actually a personal vision of what makes the game more fun to play. We should be grateful that the mod maker has given away such a long time and great effort to share his vision with us. The bottom line is we won't be posting in this thread if the mod isn't worth it. We can make comments and offer suggestions but if one doesn't actually like the whole thing then he shouldn't bother playing it.

 

[Forsaken]

I have been away from the forums a while boughtBTS and to try a new mod downloaded the mod and everything went to play it and selected texas and had a ctd what have I done wrong

did you update to the newest patch

 

[Grave]

Spoiler :

Perhaps somebody already brought this up, but I see the possibility for a new corporation. Burger world is a nice idea, but there are already two corporations that provide food (CeMi and SiSu). However I think there could be a corporation based on textiles, using Silk, Cotton, Deer, Sheep, possibly even Fur (even though it gets obsoleted). I think it could provide only culture, or maybe a bit of money, in exchange for... well, money. "Stylization"? (horrendous, I know ;-)

If you ever plan on adding a new religion (Shinto, or even (gasp!) Atheism -- coming at Scientific Method with a small Atom symbol? ;-)) then at least you have a new corporation idea to match the numbers

Idea noted.

Spoiler :

i'm not sure if this was intentional or a bug, but barbs are getting swordsman by 2200 bc and kicking the other civs asses and causeing me lots of problems and nobody has iron working yet most are just getting bronze working or dont have it yet. Just to let you know.

Edit-barbs only get swordmen from random spawns not city's

I think I figured out why this happens. I need to test it more first, though.

Spoiler :

Financial is... rediculously overpowered.
Even without the faster buildings it's a really powerful trait. Check anywhere on Civfanatics, it's generally agreed upon. Some even want to nerf it beyond that.
Industrious has become a weak trait, falling in with Protective. ...problem with this.

Look at how Firaxis balanced things.
If a leader had a strong UU and UB, he'd have lame traits. Lame UU or UB, they'd get awesome traits.
Changing one good trait into a bad trait without rearranging the traits of all leaders leads to unbalanced leaders (Leaders who are just... outrageously terrible now.)

It's a bad idea to just change around traits without looking into this. Analyze all leaders and their respective civs, and the synergy between their traits, their UB, and their UU.

Civics... are a minor complaint.
Pacifism, Universal Suffrage, Caste System, and Free Market are now over powered while many of the others, including Organized Religion, are now nerfed beyond any bit of usefulness.
It's now too easy for a human player, using the right civics, to suddenly have a giant economy, huge GPP boost, and booming culture.

I'm seeing no balance in this mod, only new features added without thinking about how their additions affect everything else.

Spoiler :

I totally agree with your opinion. I thank the OP for his hard work to bring this mod to us.It's a good mod in many ways and has introduced many new ideas. But it's now too unbalanced.

Besides the unbalanced traits&civic, some of the wonders are also overpowerful while some others are too weak.
For example, the stonehenge not only give free statue but also 1 free specialist in all city. the sphinx allow player to use free religion before 2000BC, Which not only keeps the benefit of the origin version of free religion but also that of old representive civic.

There are also some bug of other wonder, for example ,the Effel Tower doesn't have any special effect.

So I used spiritual&inspiration leader(Ramesses II) in my last game. Since he can switch civic frequently and build this two early wonder easily, He is so powerful that i win the easiest deity game i ever played.

The Texas's UB is also overpowerful(+10% food with cow, which is pretty common in most map). Compared with this: Khmer's UB barray and only 1 food.

Spoiler :

A few things mentioned by others may need a slight rebalance, but since I found out about this mod, I've played it non-stop. It adds LOTS of new aspects, plus corrects (and yes corrects) a lot of things firaxis got wrong (e.g. see those bananas my lad, well we won't be able to eat them for another 3,500 yrs, till we design a calender).

Yes some of the wonders may be a little OP, and I was going to say Horsemen are a little OP, but no, considering the Horse's importance in warfare, I don't think it is. The addition of textiles, and especially the "brewing line" of resources, is pure class, and a lot of techs and buildings/units etc made available with them now make far more sense.

Financial is basically just a screwed up trait in this AND vanilla BTS, this being even more prominent the larger the map.

My point, CIv IV had got quite stale indeed for me before I started playing this mod. I love starting a new game and (dependent on starting traits), seeing often no resources whatsoever. Does my site look promising? Should I risk moving around a bit before settling. Then if I don't have any luxury metals, I might get some Calender resources, or wine, or later sugar or coffee.

So yes, some rebalancing probably due in places, but thanks a bunch for the game as it stands

Now THAT'S the kind of feedback I'm looking for!

I've known from the beginning that Civics needed rebalancing. It's just I haven't had the time to sit down and actually do it. Quick patches are easy, but to sit down and think out how to restructure something as important as Civics.... takes time. But now that I know specifically what gripes you have, I'll try to address them in a future patch, hopefully soon.

I'll look into the Traits as well. Same thing as above... things like this may take some time, which isn't a luxury I have alot of right now. But it has been noted, therefore is in the que to get adjusted.

I'll also look into some of the Wonders to rebalance, too.

(by the way... the Eiffel Tower grants a huge boost in culture... the most in the game, I think. What else is it good for?) hehe

 

[davbenbak]

My thoughts so far on balancing so far are, yes, barb swordsmen are arriving pretty early but the bombard feature for catapults means I just keep a couple in each city and after a few hits even chariots can take them out. It's the cannons that get me! I'm glad to see "firearms" as a seperate tech but would also like to see a seperate tech for cannons. Maybe with "gunpowder" you get bombards. I'm not sure if there is a way to easily code catapults and trebs so that they are unable to attack units but still get bonus's like a scout and then allow bombards the ability to attack units. It just seems overpowering to have Napoleonic cannons so early. Early bombards were solid tubes of iron that were bored out. It wasn't until monks perfected bronze casting in order to make large church bells that light weight bronze cannons could be cast, the advantage being that they could actually be moved DURING a battle to focus on moving formations.

On a somewhat similar subject, I wish there was a "bayonet" tech. The tech "Firearms" would give early firearms units like the arquebusier and "bayonet" would give musketmen and allow an upgrade for both pikemen and arquebusiers. This would give more of a flavor to the "shot and pike" era of warfare.

Oh, and longbowmen should be a UU or mercenary unit, same with armsman (swiehander) so the upgrade path would be:
archer>crossbow>arquebusier>musketman>rifleman>infantry warrior>axeman>swordsman>maceman>grenadier>rifleman>infantry
warrior>spearman>pikeman>musketman>rifleman>infantry

Machinegunner would be a new unit that upgrades to anti-tank or sam-infantry.

 

[davbenbak]

Gosh traits are a completley different matter a cause for a seperate post. I miss the "seafaring" trait. I also think it is good to seperate "scientific" (builds libraries) from "cultural" (builds theaters) from "spiritual" (builds temples) or as Civ like to call them "creative" and "philosophic".

Another thought to help balance traits might be to have them get a free great person each time they enter a new era depending on their traits. Say for example, if you think "protective" is under-valued/weak then give them a great spy at the beginining of each era. Not sure how hard that would be to code though.

Seems like I've read that only having two traits is hard-coded but giving three traits to each civ might also add balance.