[Beyond the Sword] History In The Making
- Thread starter Grave
- Start date
DrewBledsoe
Veteran QB
Here's a quick idea to rebalance financial (and its not a completely original one 
).....leave the cheap buildings exactly as you have them, but make financial only 1 more
pt on plots already generating 3 or more. Thus coasts aren't overpowered (only 2) and riverside plots don't get the bonus until they are at least hamlets, and non-riverside "cottages" don't get the bonus until they are villages.
I messed around with something almost exactly like this a while back, and it gave (for my thinking and testing) an almost perfect balance....
).....leave the cheap buildings exactly as you have them, but make financial only 1 more pt on plots already generating 3 or more. Thus coasts aren't overpowered (only 2) and riverside plots don't get the bonus until they are at least hamlets, and non-riverside "cottages" don't get the bonus until they are villages.I messed around with something almost exactly like this a while back, and it gave (for my thinking and testing) an almost perfect balance....
The Almighty dF
Pharaoh
It's been suggested before, and found to not be balancing.
Just remove the quick buildings and it'll be just right.
Just remove the quick buildings and it'll be just right.
DrewBledsoe
Veteran QB
Well, we're both entitled to our own opinions
.....but I assure you I tested it very extensively.The problem with financial is NOT cheap buildings (by the time of banks and grocers, they become largely irrelevent). The problem is that everything in CIV has an accumulative effect, and almost from the very start of the game, a financial civ of the same size as a non-financial one, can make often 25-30% more commerce. This leads to techs first, which lead to faster development (freebies also), and so on and so on. They can also afford more cities earlier, to support more units, to fight more wars etc, etc.
Its this snowball effect that gives financial civs their overpowering effect, and it all has its roots from the very start. The 3
on 2 or more plots is the sole cause of this. Take that away, and slightly ****** their development, (as I said earlier, stopping all coastal and lake tiles from becoming better or equal to others hamlets), and you accomplish this. By pegging back their runaway science monster ability, until later, is imo the only way to do it.As someone else said somewhere on these forums, "playing a financial civ is like playing a lvl lower than you normally do". I have to concur.
Kalimakhus
Emperor
- Joined
- May 8, 2007
- Messages
- 1,249
This discussion of the Financial trait is quite interesting. I must however disagree to the generalization of how powerful the trait is. What I mean is that compared to other traits financial is circumstantial i.e. it will be fully useful and potentially overpowered based on the starting location a civ will have. With a lot of flood plains tiles it can give you a booming start. With river-side grassland tiles and coastline cities it would be a very good start. In other cases it won't be that powerful or at least it will pay a little later (When cottages upgrade to hamlets).
Another point is that the fact that financial bonus depends on improvements means that it can be lost to pillaging either by barbs or in time of war. Also to benefit from the bonus tiles giving commerce must be worked so you face a problem balancing your production and food needs.
In conclusion if you think of nerffing the Financial trait down it would be enough to remove the buildings construction advantage.
It would also be nice if some thoughts can be discussed for buffing the lame traits to make them more appealing choices. IMO Expansive is a trait that can use some buffing. On the other hand Creative can be nerffed a little. Maybe +1 culture is enough equal to a free monument in each city (and it doesn't get obsoleted).
Edit: If you like to get some ideas for a balanced traits system you may look at the one of Total Realism. Their traits are well balanced IMO.
Another point is that the fact that financial bonus depends on improvements means that it can be lost to pillaging either by barbs or in time of war. Also to benefit from the bonus tiles giving commerce must be worked so you face a problem balancing your production and food needs.
In conclusion if you think of nerffing the Financial trait down it would be enough to remove the buildings construction advantage.
It would also be nice if some thoughts can be discussed for buffing the lame traits to make them more appealing choices. IMO Expansive is a trait that can use some buffing. On the other hand Creative can be nerffed a little. Maybe +1 culture is enough equal to a free monument in each city (and it doesn't get obsoleted).
Edit: If you like to get some ideas for a balanced traits system you may look at the one of Total Realism. Their traits are well balanced IMO.
Ok, I've been working on this CTD for about eight hours and have not made a lick of progress. Although I did attempt to merge this mod with a few features from various other modpacks, I made a concerted effort not to try and do too much in order to avoid this exact situation. Altogether I made some simple xml changes to diversify religion, changed some cosmetic issues (artfiles), added one modular component in order to add religion-specific units(and took care in doing so to make sure that there were no inconsistencies with the main mod files), and made a minor change to the sdk in order to play with 40 civs. Usually Im willing to figure it out through trial and error, but this crash is different in that it doesn't really even start the game for long enough to log the errors, and I can't piece it together from the crashdumps. It crashes right as its finishing the initialization of the xml, so I figured it must be caused by the sdk incompatibility given that the game would have reported python and xml errors at the moment and in the log; however, when I replaced the original sdk and cleared the cache the problem persisted. I don't know where to go from here. One temp file said that it crashed because of 'appcompat' problems, theme parser log indicates gamefont issues, another one said that it is my .NET runtime that is causing the problem
and causing it to overrun a buffer. "- This application cannot run using the active version of the Microsoft .NET Runtime
Please contact the application's support team for more information. ........
Program: A buffer overrun has been detected which has corrupted the program's
internal state. The program cannot safely continue execution and must
now be terminated...." Another said that it was a lack of a matching binary, and, finally, I also read that it was because, "validate import failed". If anyone could help me out I would really appreciate it.
Thanks
and causing it to overrun a buffer. "- This application cannot run using the active version of the Microsoft .NET Runtime
Please contact the application's support team for more information. ........
Program: A buffer overrun has been detected which has corrupted the program's
internal state. The program cannot safely continue execution and must
now be terminated...." Another said that it was a lack of a matching binary, and, finally, I also read that it was because, "validate import failed". If anyone could help me out I would really appreciate it.
Thanks
Dabeuz
Chieftain
Anyone could tell me if there is a way to use this mod and then use some pre-made maps not particularly designed for it (I'm thinking about playing History in the Making that I love with a particular map without loosing all the specific civs, leaders, ressources... made in HiTM).
Thanks for enlightening a CIV lover (I started with CIV1 while student) but with poor moding Xperience.
Thanks for enlightening a CIV lover (I started with CIV1 while student) but with poor moding Xperience.
Leif
Prince
I just tried to build a Aztec 2nd UU and the game crashed. Apparently the eagle warrior has no set graphic.
That's odd. I'll look into it.
I appologize for not being on here in a while. This time of year is ALWAYS busy for me, and I don't have much time to sit down and do much gaming lately.
For those of you who want rebalanced Civics/Traits, I have a little homework assignment for you. Why don't you send me, what YOU think the rebalanced Traits/Civics should be.
Just modify the approperiate XML files, zip them up and either post them in this thread or PM them to me and I'll take a look at them.
I plan on doing something to work on the Civics/Traits issue sometime after Christmas, as I'll have time off from work.
mnlg
Chieftain
I like a Building style of play, I have no experience nor interest on multiplaying and I dislike wars. Given all this, this is my 0,02, and of course feel free to discuss/criticize:
** GOVERNMENT **
HEREDITARY RULE
I would take away the +1 money to Cottage(+) and the -1 money from Fort
REPRESENTATION
Perhaps something less than +25% maintenance... +10% perhaps?
POLICE STATE
I'd go for -75% GP +75% GG... there have been artists in regimes, they just had to comply with it (but perhaps I'm thinking more on the lines of strong nationhood)
** LEGAL **
BUREAUCRACY
Given that only this and FS are the Legal civics for Builders, I think it's quite costly. I know that it sort of makes sense, but I would perhaps make it Medium upkeep and give a minus to the production of specialists (like -1 culture or -1 science).
FREE SPEECH
I would consider a happiness penalty for civs without it
** LABOR **
I would swap the bad effects of Slavery and Serfdom. I would give +2 unhealth to serfdom and -100% growth for village/town to slavery (perhaps also swapping around medium and low upkeep, but I'm not sure). I think it makes more sense historically, and it would make it more difficult to stick to slavery.
** ECONOMY **
ENVIRONMENTALISM
I would maaaaybe give it a money or hammer bonus to lumber mills.
* * *
Everything else seems ok to me.
I have long modified my local civics so that Free market gives +2 unhealth instead of a malus on hammers, and I also suggested it, but I don't know if it made it to the main branch yet.
** GOVERNMENT **
HEREDITARY RULE
I would take away the +1 money to Cottage(+) and the -1 money from Fort
REPRESENTATION
Perhaps something less than +25% maintenance... +10% perhaps?
POLICE STATE
I'd go for -75% GP +75% GG... there have been artists in regimes, they just had to comply with it (but perhaps I'm thinking more on the lines of strong nationhood)
** LEGAL **
BUREAUCRACY
Given that only this and FS are the Legal civics for Builders, I think it's quite costly. I know that it sort of makes sense, but I would perhaps make it Medium upkeep and give a minus to the production of specialists (like -1 culture or -1 science).
FREE SPEECH
I would consider a happiness penalty for civs without it
** LABOR **
I would swap the bad effects of Slavery and Serfdom. I would give +2 unhealth to serfdom and -100% growth for village/town to slavery (perhaps also swapping around medium and low upkeep, but I'm not sure). I think it makes more sense historically, and it would make it more difficult to stick to slavery.
** ECONOMY **
ENVIRONMENTALISM
I would maaaaybe give it a money or hammer bonus to lumber mills.
* * *
Everything else seems ok to me.
I have long modified my local civics so that Free market gives +2 unhealth instead of a malus on hammers, and I also suggested it, but I don't know if it made it to the main branch yet.
You don't. It's a permanent fixture of HiTM. You can, however, play with the options and tweak it to your liking.
But you cannot remove it unless you know what you're doing with Python, and it would be more of a pain in the ass than it's worth.
But you cannot remove it unless you know what you're doing with Python, and it would be more of a pain in the ass than it's worth.
Leif
Prince
Fantastic job on the 2nd UU thing, btw. The Eagle Warrior is the only bug I've seen.
It might just be how I play, but I always seem to make amazing amounts of money every turn when I'm a Republic with a Mercantile economy. That may need balancing [although I do love it lots].
I have no real problem with the civics, reducing the increase of maintenance might make sense historically, straight-up republics are less inclusive so they have to worry about minority interests less.
As far as traits go, tinkering might yield good results, but I think I would be really careful. I don't really find the traits broken, so there isn't that great a need [IMO] to change them.
Keep up the good work, I look forwards to whatever comes next.
It might just be how I play, but I always seem to make amazing amounts of money every turn when I'm a Republic with a Mercantile economy. That may need balancing [although I do love it lots].
I have no real problem with the civics, reducing the increase of maintenance might make sense historically, straight-up republics are less inclusive so they have to worry about minority interests less.
As far as traits go, tinkering might yield good results, but I think I would be really careful. I don't really find the traits broken, so there isn't that great a need [IMO] to change them.
Keep up the good work, I look forwards to whatever comes next.
The Almighty dF
Pharaoh
Because environmentalism leads to more lumber mill usage and people loving lumber mills in general. No wait, that's the opposite.
