bgast1's Official thread on I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Athiest

[Sidhe]

It's a nice quote but it does simply go to show that there are bigots in any walk of life, I'd condemn the mans words and ignore them, Thomas Aguinas and Oregan though I know more about so I'll say they were misguided in some words and leave it at that.

EDIT: Cains mark was not a visual one I think if I'm not misinformed I believe it was merely that all living plant life would persish in his presence, his mark was a sickness on nature not a physical scar or taint. I'd check it out though, but that was what I was lead to believe. Another example of man corrupting the bible, does no one read that book, I mean I don't even take it as the abolute b all and end all of religion but those that do should try actually reading it some time

1. And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.
2. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5. But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6. And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7. If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9. And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10. And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11. And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12. When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13. And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15. And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
16. And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
17. And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Apparently the mark was to let all know that Cain was to be left alone and not slain, a sort of immortality to walk the Earth and consider his sin? I fail to see Cain being black here? If you want to be evolutianarilly accurate though Adam and Eve must have been black, but then don't let science trouble religion

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

"Genocide on thousands of Jews in the crusades...?"

Well, mass murder if you must call it that instead. And don't go on with your "every historical fact I disagree with must be biased" act again, it' time you realize that things happened in the past and that we know about them.

 

[Inqvisitor]

The Council of Trent wasn't a valid theological forum. Go on, now prove me wrong.

You might not be aware, but in reality people here don't actually believe things just because you say so. It's not that we know all of your claims and reject them out of pure stubbornness; we actually think that you are wrong.

The Council of Trent wasn't merely a theological forum at all; it was the great oecumenical council that would define Christianity and the Christian world for nearly 500 years.

 

[Perfection]

At the Council of Trent, there were two books placed on the altar. One was the Holy Bible. Can you guess the other...?

Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health?

And what's so great about that book being stored next to a bible?

 

[Inqvisitor]

Well, mass murder if you must call it that instead. And don't go on with your "every historical fact I disagree with must be biased" act again, it' time you realize that things happened in the past and that we know about them.

If anything it was the Jews who were killing Christians, such as when the Jews traitorously opened the gate to the Jewish quarter of Constantinople to allow Mohammedan invaders to enter. Don't forget their centuries of usury harming and killing Europe's poor either...

 

[Xanikk999]

Well, mass murder if you must call it that instead. And don't go on with your "every historical fact I disagree with must be biased" act again, it' time you realize that things happened in the past and that we know about them.

To be fair, the muslims murdered many christians knights in response and went on a few jihads of thier own shortly after.

I see your point though.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

The Council of Trent wasn't merely a theological forum at all; it was the great oecumenical council that would define Christianity and the Christian world for nearly 500 years.

No, it defined Catholicism for 500 years. That doesn't mean that I have to accept it. You are not actually giving me a reason here.

And Jews persecuting Christians? You have clearly stepped outside the realm of reality. Of course Jews tended to welcome Muslim invaders; this wasn't because they were somehow traitors but because the Muslims gave them actual rights. I mean, you might as well at this point claim that the Jews teamed up with the Galactic Empire and the Borg Collective to persecute the Miner's Guild.

 

[ironduck]

Ah yes.. usury.. nothing like the catholic indulgences.. scare the crap out of people and tell them everything will be good if they just pay the church their savings.

 

[Sidhe]

Oh come now Eran you mean the Asgard surely, The Romans teamed up with the Borg to defeat the Cartheginians, get your history straight.

Inqvisitor was the other book The Communist Manifesto by Carl Marx?

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Oh come now Eran you mean the Asgard surely, The Romans teamed with the Borg to defeat the Carthaginians, get your history straight.

D'oh! My bad. There are so many evil empires to keep track of . . .

 

[Masquerouge]

Jesus offers His life for many not for all.:

And by an amazing coincidence, you are one of the many ?

 

[Inqvisitor]

And by an amazing coincidence, you are one of the many ?

The Church of Christ is the "many."

 

[Sidhe]

Anyone on the planet today and for the last two milenia, that was the whole point, to spread the message amongst all, so all those Romans, Greeks, and Jews who signed up were the benefactors but in fact the whole of mankind stood to benefit since now Jesus had advocated spreading the message to all mankind, to all God's children. Forgiveness and salvation for all. Later the Popes acknowledge that even those not acknowledging Jesus as a saviour but merely as a prophet were also going to heaven as were just about anyone who accepted God in whatever form. One day they might actually open it up to everyone who was not wicked as Jesus meant, as it stands it's all those ignorant of God, those living in the Amazon and all those who worship God in any form aproved by the big C. These days you practically have to worship Satan or the holy dollar or some other cult or another, not to be tolerated by RC, times change.

 

[GenMarshall]

Ok, then, you are saying that to be a true Catholic, one must be as anti-Semitic as you are, and that someone who isn't can't be a real Catholic? Whatever.

To make note, I am a Catholic and I am not anti-semetic. Unlike Inqvisitor, I do have religious tolerance and view Jews as both an ethnic group and a religious group. To be anti-semetic is certanly breaking a certan commandment in my eyes and no Catholic should be anti-semetic.

In other news, "Catholics you have ever met":
believe Catholics don't have to attend Mass on Sunday (77%)
believe Catholics can divorce and remarry (65%)
believe Catholics can have an abortion (53%)
deny the Church's teaching on birth control (90%)
believe the Eucharist is a "symbolic reminder" of Our Lord (70%)

(source, National Catholic Reporter)

People who call themselves Catholic cannot make up their own positions on such issues.

And are these from lapsed Catholics? I myself am in the process of returning to the Church and I do believe that Catholics do have to attend Mass on Sunday (or Saturday night), believe that marrage is ongoing unless an annulment has been made, believe that the NFP and abstanance is the only natural birth control, and finaly believe in Transubstiation.

I must say I admire your honesty. Unlike most Novus Ordinarians, you openly admit your religion started with Vatican II in the 1960s and the words of some stuffy old 2,000 year-old dead guys named Jesus, Peter, and Paul have nothing to do with your beliefs.

First of all, what in the world is a "Novus Ordinarians"? Second of all, I did not admited anything. The Vatican II has brought many changes to the church which brought it back up to the times of the modern age. The words and teaching of Jesus, Paul, and Peter are part of my beliefs, Jesus mainly plays a larger role.

Realy, Mainline Catholics have moved on and adapted to the times. Since you are a Traditional Catholic, how about considering on joining the Society of St. Pius X .

The next subject up will be about the universe. But I would like to ask a question, by way of introduction so that I can consider what evidence/arguments to present and if there are any that I can exclude. Is it generally accepted at least among you all that the universe began with the Big Bang? If not please elaborate on what your theory is. This will help me a great deal.

For me, I believe that God created the big bang and provided the ingredice for life. But thats just my own personal theory and beliefs.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

@CivGeneral: I know that you, and the overwhelming majority of Catholics worldwide, aren't anti-Semitic. I ask Inqvisitor because he doesn't seem to consider you a real Catholic.

 

[Inqvisitor]

And are these from lapsed Catholics? I myself am in the process of returning to the Church and I do believe that Catholics do have to attend Mass on Sunday (or Saturday night), believe that marrage is ongoing unless an annulment has been made, believe that the NFP and abstanance is the only natural birth control, and finaly believe in Transubstiation.

These are from mainstream, Vatican II-adhering self-proclaimed "catholics" just like you. Considering the sorts of extreme corrupt liberalists JPII appointed, abortion, birth control, divorce, and "symbolic" communion are bound to become Newchurch dogmas soon.

First of all, what in the world is a "Novus Ordinarians"? Second of all, I did not admited anything. The Vatican II has brought many changes to the church which brought it back up to the times of the modern age. The words and teaching of Jesus, Paul, and Peter are part of my beliefs, Jesus mainly plays a larger role.

Yeah, but to you Jesus is apparently second to Yves Congar, Hannibal Bugnini and the periti...

You dismiss both the words of St. Peter and of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself in favour of "vatican II."

Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
(Gospel According to Saint John xiv. 6)
​

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

You dismiss both the words of St. Peter and of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself in favour of "vatican II."

Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
(Gospel According to Saint John xiv. 6)
​

Umm, Vatican II doesn't contradict that. You, on the other hand, are saying that the Catholic church (as you understand it) is the true path to salvation. Now who's being contradictory?

 

[Inqvisitor]

Umm, Vatican II doesn't contradict that. You, on the other hand, are saying that the Catholic church (as you understand it) is the true path to salvation. Now who's being contradictory?

Have you not read "nostra aetate," the vatican ii document on the relation between Christianity and false religions?

Christ is the Church

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Have you not read "nostra aetate," the vatican ii document on the relation between Christianity and false religions?

Christ is the Church

No I haven't, but I am fairly certain (if 10 years of Catholic school has taught me anything) isn't that Christ is necessary for salvation but that belief in Christ while in this world isn't a prerequisite. Quite a different thing, that.

And I dont think you answered one of my earlier questions: why would God set up a system that would condemn billions of people to hell just for being born too early or in the wrong place so that they never even heard of Christ before they died? Why not make believing in Christ easier, if He loves us so much?

 

[Inqvisitor]

No I haven't, but I am fairly certain (if 10 years of Catholic school has taught me anything) isn't that Christ is necessary for salvation but that belief in Christ while in this world isn't a prerequisite. Quite a different thing, that.

You are saying neither Christ nor belief in Christ while in the world are necessary...?

Both are necessary, from the Catholic perspective.