bgast1's Official thread on I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Athiest

[Eran of Arcadia]

What about that whole "Please take this cup from me" bit, then?

Followed by, "Nevertheless, not what I will, but what Thou willest be done". In other words, Jesus wanted to fulfill the will of the Father. And by the point that he was actually being tried and sentenced, he had, in my opinion, already reconciled himself to what he had to do. Of course, Mormonism teaches that his worst suffering was in the Garden the night before, so the crucifixion would have been bearable.

 

[Inqvisitor]

Basically the Jews were the instigators and the biggest culprits, but politics lays the blame also at Romes door, not for wanting to kill the son of God but for what they saw as good intentions, to keep the peace between Rome and the troubled state of Judea.

Theologically the Jews are 100% responsible. It makes no sense from a prophetic point of view to have Christ crucified by some passing temporal power like Rome. With the Crucifixion, the old temple was destroyed and was replaced by the Holy Church.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
(Gospel According to Saint John i. 11)​

 

[Sidhe]

That is pretty much self evident, Jesus knows at an early age, and if you believe Judas's words (or are they? Jesus even creates a plot with Judas to pass himself into Judas's hands and there before the Rabbis) He even tells Peter that he will forsake him, he knows full well he is to die, but his reason for the scarifice are of course perfect reasons.

And yes who really cares about a few corrupt politicians 2000 years ago, it's beside the point, unfortunately mankind is at it's best when it is being hypocritical arrogant and self serving, and scape goats have always been a good political tool for the politically mishvevious, good way of diverting a population be they spirtual or political or both from the real problems in society.

Inquisitor, I don't think you quite understood the politics, Rome serves well by the death of a trouble maker, it was Rome that put the nails in, and with machievellian politics and a will to do so, you can't absolve them completely, if you read that into the situation you are not undestanding it at all.

What are you saying that there is theological responsibility and political responsibility? And they are seperate, that is nonsensical?

 

[El_Machinae]

Followed by, "Nevertheless, not what I will, but what Thou willest be done".

See ... that inner sentence fragment leaps out at me.

Inqvisitor - while we're heaping sins of a few upon a group, I'll mockingly say "Inquisition!"

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Theologically the Jews are 100% responsible. It makes no sense from a prophetic point of view to have Christ crucified by some passing temporal power like Rome. With the Crucifixion, the old temple was destroyed and was replaced by the Holy Church.

I don't get how all Jews are then by extension 100% responsible. It makes no sense that they should be accomplices in an act that a small group of their ancestors did 2000 years ago. And it's not like they know that Jesus is the Christ and are rejecting him out of spite - spend 20 centuries being hassled, expelled, and murdered for allegedly killing someone you have never met, and see how much you like that person.

 

[downtown]

Forgive them father, for they know not what they do

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't get how all Jews are then by extension 100% responsible

Sadly, you Mormons have the wrong type of brainwashing. If you wanted to hate Jews, you needed to be brainwashed at skinhead rallies ...

 

[El_Machinae]

Forgive them father, for they know not what they do

The thief on the right said that, not Jesus.
(Some Pope guy)​

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Sadly, you Mormons have the wrong type of brainwashing. If you wanted to hate Jews, you needed to be brainwashed at skinhead rallies ...

Yeah, our brainwashing techniques are excellent but the target is misguided. Here we are just being convinced that Utah is a great place to live . . .

 

[Masquerouge]

The thief on the right said that, not Jesus.
(Some Pope guy)​

nice private joke

 

[Sidhe]

I don't get it.

A) it's not true
B) the Pope cannot be wrong
C)I have no sense of humour

 

[Inqvisitor]

Forgive them father, for they know not what they do

Read Summa Theologica on the issue. It is posted in this thread.

 

[Perfection]

Read Summa Theologica on the issue. It is posted in this thread.

So what the heck makes the Summa Theologica so great anyways?

 

[Inqvisitor]

So what the heck makes the Summa Theologica so great anyways?

At the Council of Trent, there were two books placed on the altar. One was the Holy Bible. Can you guess the other...?

 

[Sidhe]

Really don't bother, it's more anti semitic nonsense from the Catholic church, not only that it's a direct corruption of all six Gospels as is patently obvious if you read his words at the crucifixion and at his resurrection, if the Jews are so tainted, then why does Jesus offer his life so that all mankind should be saved, Jesus forgave the Jews, he forgave the Romans, it's a simple as that and it is Jesus' own words as repeated by 6 different apostles in six different Gospels, I take that in a heart beat above any nonsense an anti semetic church could utter. Christ they commited attempted genocide on thousands of Jews in the crusades, are we really going to take their lies at face value, somewhat biased don't you think?

EDIT: BTW as we already showed the Catholic church now leans towards our side of the argument, yes folks they can admit their fault and offer tolerance, it took nearly two millenia, but for the Church that's lighning fast

 

[Inqvisitor]

Sadly, you Mormons have the wrong type of brainwashing. If you wanted to hate Jews, you needed to be brainwashed at skinhead rallies ...

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin."
~Brigham Young [Mormon prophet] (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, page 290).​

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

At the Council of Trent, there were two books placed on the altar. One was the Holy Bible. Can you guess the other...?

The Council of Trent wasn't a valid theological forum. Go on, now prove me wrong.

You might not be aware, but in reality people here don't actually believe things just because you say so. It's not that we know all of your claims and reject them out of pure stubbornness; we actually think that you are wrong.

 

[Inqvisitor]

Really don't bother, it's more anti semitic nonsense from the Catholic church, not only that it's a direct corruption of all six Gospels as is patently obvious if you read his words at the crucifixion and at his resurrection, if the Jews are so tainted, then why does Jesus offer his life so that all mankind should be saved, Jesus forgave the Jews, he forgave the Romans, it's a simple as that and it is Jesus' own words as repeated by 6 different apostles in six different Gospels, I take that in a heart beat above any nonsense an anti semetic church could utter. Christ they commited attempted genocide on thousands of Jews in the crusades, are we really going to take their lies at face value, somewhat biased don't you think?

EDIT: BTW as we already showed the Catholic church now leans towards our side of the argument, yes folks they can admit their fault and offer tolerance, it took nearly two millenia, but for the Church that's lighning fast

Jesus offers His life for many not for all. There are a great many people who will be going to Hell, Jews included. The Gospels say this, and the Church teaches this.

"Genocide on thousands of Jews in the crusades...?"

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind....Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin."
~Brigham Young [Mormon prophet] (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, page 290).​

An anti-Semite calling me racist - how quaint. Anyways, unlike you, I do not believe that all the words of all the previous leaders of my church are infallible, so Brigham Young's unfortunate opinions mean nothing to me.

 

[ironduck]

Thomas Aquinas was a messed up wacko similar to Luther.