Biggest Disaster in WW1 & WW2

[Sarevok]

you have never heard of the age of imperialism?

 

[privatehudson]

Also I think that a much forgotten fact is that the English invented the Concentration Camp.

True, but an attempt to link the camps the British operated with those such as Auschwitz, or even Bergen Belsen and similar is at the very least tenuous. Also the British camps, from what I have read were as they sound, for the concentration of the population. They were not pleasant places, and I don't doubt that people died and suffered in them, but if they have a WWII paralell, it would be more in the Ghettos than it would in the camps.

It's important to remember that there is a distinct difference between the concentration camps and the death camps of the Nazi Regime*. Simply offering the fact that the British invented the name and theory does not in any way shape or form then link to either of the types of camps operated by the Nazi Regime. The British were not gassing Boer families for example. So simply trying to link the British Empire with the Nazi Regime and compare the two and their theories on concentration camps is poor to me.

Is it a bad thing to incarcerate the population of an ethnic minority in war? Yes, in a way it is, but that in no way excuses a vague comparison comment between this and the deliberate policy of mass murder in some camps, and total ignorance of the welfare of the inmates to the point of countless deaths in others. The British in the Boer war did incarcerate, they did not willfully try to anhialate the population. Big difference

*No, I'm not trying to say they were pleasant places or that people did not die there, just that some of the camps were not used for gassing of the inmates. Whilst these may seem similar on paper in name and theory to the British ones, in practice, the gulf is vast. I know enough about the horrors of the "mere" concentration camps, my Grandfather helped liberate one, the sight of his face when he spoke of it spoke volumes in itself

 

[Sarevok]

indeed, its not like the death camps of the SS

 

[nonconformist]

Yes, I know the difference. The Concentration Camp was more for political prisoners and dissidents. Though the SS, Gestapo, SD, Nazi Party, and slave labour must be condemned, the Wehrmacht, Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine shouldn't, and must not. The regular army was not a tool of massacre and terror but rather similar to the Allied armies, excluding the Red Army. They were young boys, who's country had been almost demonised and had every shred of respectability and pride ripped cruelly form it by the Treaty of Versailles. No wonder the Germans were so happy that the war started. Watch the newsreels; the young boys are proud that their country have become reglorified.
Why was Polan invaded? It used to be German territory, so most people probably thought it belonged to them. France? Destrroyed Germany's pride at Versailles. Now I am half French and am in now way condoning what the Germans did but they were indoctrinated by 7 years of constant propaganda. Most of the soldiers in the Wehrmacht upheld the Prussic code of honour, the Hague convention, and the Geneva Convention of 1929. The Wehrmacht, however, less so recently, been almost demonised by films, books and t.v whereas the Allies are made out to be good in every respect. There are seldom films where Allies commit war crimes. The Soviet Union, also was never condemned, really until rescently for the crimes they commited, the massacres of their imprisoned Polish officers, the POW camps, the blocking squads. People like Erwin Rommel, the ones that upheld the Prussic standards have been condemned along with the likes of Peiper and Skortzeny, and it hade been done so wrongly.

 

[Cullyn]

Originally posted by nonconformist
Yes, I know the difference. The Concentration Camp was more for political prisoners and dissidents. Though the SS, Gestapo, SD, Nazi Party, and slave labour must be condemned, the Wehrmacht, Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine shouldn't, and must not. The regular army was not a tool of massacre and terror but rather similar to the Allied armies, excluding the Red Army. They were young boys, who's country had been almost demonised and had every shred of respectability and pride ripped cruelly form it by the Treaty of Versailles. No wonder the Germans were so happy that the war started. Watch the newsreels; the young boys are proud that their country have become reglorified.

“every shred of respectability and pride ripped cruelly form it”

What a load of rubbish. What did the most damage to Germany was a combination of the depression and having to pay the reparations. I will agree the reparations were over the top but as for them destroying the moral of the German people, what a stupid comment. Hardship does many things, destroying the national identity of a country is not one of them. Trust me on this; we had 700 years of it and my national pride and identity is fine. The road to Fascism was walked by many nations, including my own but fortunately for some of us there were people ready to stand up to them while there was time.

From The Reverend Martin Niemoller, I Didn't Speak Up

"In Germany, the Nazis first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me...By that time there was no one to speak up for anyone."

Originally posted by nonconformist
“Watch the newsreels; the young boys are proud that their country have become reglorified.”

Watch an English football game form the 1980’s, you’ll see the same thing.
It is amazing how few SS or Gestapo or SD or Nazi Party members who actually did any of the informing and of the casual violence, no alas it was ordinary people living ordinary lives who did most of the damage. How about Kristallnacht? That was orchestrated by the Nazi’s but it was the ordinary people who did most of it.

Originally posted by nonconformist
The regular army was not a tool of massacre and terror but rather similar to the Allied armies, excluding the Red Army.

Do on to other as thy would do on to yourself, or to put it another way you reap what you sow.

Originally posted by nonconformist
Why was Poland invaded? It used to be German territory, so most people probably thought it belonged to them.

Why was Czechoslovakia invaded? Why is the sky blue. How about Poland and Czechoslovakia were invaded because Hitler was a psychotic fascist megalomaniac murderer with delusions of ruling the world. Now tell me, how that hell did you come up with the statement that Poland is German? And I suggest you never ever say that to a Pole, not if you want to keep your teeth. Agreed Poland was part of Germany and Prussia for a time but Russia was part of Poland for a time too. By your logic Italy has a rightful claim on France, Spain, England Wales and parts of the Rhineland, no wait a minute the Celts were there first so actually Ireland owns Europe. Cool. I declare myself Ard Rì of Europe. Give me wine…

[

Originally posted by nonconformist
France? Destroyed Germany's pride at Versailles. Now I am half French and am in now way condoning what the Germans did but they were indoctrinated by 7 years of constant propaganda. Most of the soldiers in the Wehrmacht upheld the Prussic code of honour, the Hague convention, and the Geneva Convention of 1929.

But if they didn’t it wasn’t there fault, they were told to do it. And what exactly is the Prussic code of honour? Is that when honoured enemies fly over to your country and bomb your cities? Is that when the tactics of blitzkrieg are used against refugees? The Hague and Geneva Conventions? Where are the parts that says you can invade your neighbours?

[

Originally posted by nonconformist
The Wehrmacht, however, less so recently, been almost demonised by films, books and t.v whereas the Allies are made out to be good in every respect. There are seldom films where Allies commit war crimes. The Soviet Union, also was never condemned, really until recently for the crimes they committed, the massacres of their imprisoned Polish officers, the POW camps, the blocking squads. People like Erwin Rommel, the ones that upheld the Prussic standards have been condemned along with the likes of Peiper and Skortzeny, and it hade been done so wrongly.

Sigh. What ever.

Originally posted by nonconformist
Remagen prison camp-terrible conditions.

Idiocy of the moist terrible kind. Should have never happened.

Originally posted by nonconformist
Dresden-Became an inferno killing hundreds of thousands of people
Hamburg-Similar to Dresden

To quote me, Do on to other as thy would do on to yourself, or to put it another way you reap what you sow. Or how about London, Coventry, Birmingham, Eindhoven, Warsaw…….. Bad stuff happened OK.

Originally posted by nonconformist
Attacking surrendered U-boats including that of Werner Hartenstein-the incident is now known as the Laconia incident, Hartenstein's ship sunk an Allied vessel full of civilians, so he collected most of them up, allowed some inside of the boat, most stood on the deck, and he towed some lifeboats. The U-boat was displaying the Red Cross and the Geneva Convention states it is an offense to attack an unarmed unit displaying a red cross (the submarine was armed, yes but with hundreds of passengers lining the decks, there was no way that the boat was a threat). Upon making contact with an Allied plane (American I think) the aircraft was ordered to attack despite the knowlege of the Allied survivors. The aircraft attacked their own survivors to try to sink the U-boat. The boat cut the ropes to the lifeboats and dived, leaving hundreds of survivors from the decks in the water, while some were in the U-boat itself. Later Allied ships did manage to pick up most of these survivors. Werner Hartenstein was later killed in action when his U-Boot was sunk.

I tell you what I’ll go and dredge up ever incident when the Axis did nasty stuff and you go dig up all the allies’ bad things and we’ll compare. I bet ya my list will be bigger. Oh and if what you describe happened it was wrong.

Originally posted by nonconformist
I would not be surprised if the Allies deliberately sunk hospital ships.

Prove that statement.

Originally posted by nonconformist
The sinking of merchant vessels in the pacific by Americans.

You mean the ships supplying Japan with materials? Every ship new that there was a war in the Pacific and that a policy on all sides of unrestricted submarine action was in effect. If you didn’t have business there you stayed away. The allies had to assume that a merchant ship was supplying the enemy, and um, what were the Germans doing in the Atlantic?

Originally posted by nonconformist
The dropping of the Atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Ok, the Japanese started the bloody war. A land invasion would have cost Japan and the USA millions of lives and to top it all the Japs and Yanks really didn’t like each other. That war was kinda personal. But you know, the Yanks treated the Japs quite well after the war. Oh and how about the Japanese in Korea and China? They weren’t the nicest of people there. Can anyone here say Nangking….


Mr Nonconformist you really should realise that WW2 was not a nice event in world history. It is perhaps our darkest hour and in the dark many terrible things happen. The task for us today is to learn and never to repeat.

Ah and the turning point of the war was Stalingrad. Hitler should have taken Leningrad and Moscow, before turning south. But thankfully Hitler wasn’t a good listener. I think that’s a trait of small homicidal maniacs..

 

[privatehudson]

nonconformist: Whatever the truth or otherwise of your comments, your pointless link to the British Empire was my point, not the moral or otherwise of the german people.

 

[nonconformist]

Cullyn, I did in now way say that the Germans were right to invade Poland-definitely not, but the common view would have been that it had been part of Germany. The Treaty of Versailles was the reason for the Second World War, and I challenge anyone to proove that it wasn't. Who would have voted for Hitler, aside of the racist die hard Nazis? Well the Freikorps for one, disillusioned soldiers that had been in the muddy terror of the Somme, Verdun, Marne, Ypres, Passcendaele, Tannenberg, who had suffered massive casualties, and who had toiled away in the trenches for what? To have your nation deglorified, to lose your economy, to lose your army, your past, and worse of all, to take all of the blame for everything. Everything that happened was autmatically your fault. You were stripped of huge amounts of territory, and credibility and glory. What if your next door country had a war and you lose a few million men, then they take over your land, your money, and then they say "Either you take the blame or we crush you,you stared it, everything that happened, the meaninless slaughter, the barbarity everyone used, it was your fault".
No wonder those from Prussia wanted to elect Hitler, it was their past, it was what their country had been with Bismarck.
If you condemn the Wermacht troops, then surely you must therefore condemn Germany as a whole? Yet no one aside maybe Patroklos, Adler17 and I seem to want to condemn any actions by for example, "Bomber" Harris responsible for Dresden.
I am, and will remain someone who will always hate Nazism, and for good reasons too.
Germany has lived up to their past, they accept it and they never want to take part anymore. The same with Russia and France. Notice how these countries that have had horrific fighting on their land since 1914 don't want to declare war on Iraq, yet the U.s a country never invaded since their independence did. France, Russia and Germany are tired of war. They want to live in peace.

There are few films that condemn Allied war crimes, especially in Russia Cullyn, so could you find me a few?

As for hospital ships, Lazaretteschiff B, Robert Ley was hit on March 25th 1945 in an RAF raid on Hamburg. Lazaretteschiffe Monte Olivia was hit on April the 3rd 1945 in a USAAF raid in Kiel.
Lazaretteschiffe C Stuttgart was sunk on October 9th 1943 by an Allied raid on Gotenhafen while full of wounded. Few survived. This is not considered a war crime under the Hague convention, as it was partially camouflaged.
Lazaretteschiffe Alexander Von Humboldt was sunk on June 24th 1944 at Wesermuende by the USAAF. It was raised and repaired after 1945.
The Portia was hit by bombs in Hamburg. The hulk was rescued but was later bombed and sunk in 1945.
The Fasan was bombed by the RAF in Hamburg and sunk in 1943, it was raised later but was again sunk in 1944 byt a USAAF raid on Hamburg.
The Huxter was decomissioned after suffering damage from an air attack in 1944.
The Erlangen, converted from a captured French accomodation ship was bombed in June 1944 17 km form Pantelleriawhile rescuing survivors from TA26 and TA30. Bombed again while being repaired.
The Turbingen
Quote: Nov 18, 1944, 0745 GMT The Tübingen was attacked by two British Beaufighters which, after passing over the ship, proceeded to attack it a number of times, although it seems clear that the British were aware of the fact that the ship was indeed a hospital ship and the weather was clear and the sea was calm. The British attacked the ship upwards of nine times, hitting it with air launched rockets. The Tübingen sunk at 0820 GMT. Before sinking, lifeboats were launched, saving the majority onboard. It was hit and sunk while 3.5 nautical miles south of Cap Promontore (Pola). The ship burned out after the attack and sunk claiming 6 dead. After the sinking, there was a great deal of diplomatic fuss over the attack, with the British claiming that the ship was sunk in error, and the Germans making some very solid and substantiated claims to the contrary.
The Innsbruck (II) was bombed in June 1944.
These are the hospital ships attacked only by the Western Allies.

Source: www.feldgrau.com/hospitalships.html

 

[Darth_Pugwash]

The Wehrmacht, however, less so recently, been almost demonised by films, books and t.v whereas the Allies are made out to be good in every respect. There are seldom films where Allies commit war crimes.

Films are made to entertain people, not educate them. You must be a very naive person if you walk into a cinema expecting to learn the details of war crimes committed during ww2. Or any subject.

If you condemn the Wermacht troops, then surely you must therefore condemn Germany as a whole?

No.

Yet no one aside maybe Patroklos, Adler17 and I seem to want to condemn any actions by for example, "Bomber" Harris responsible for Dresden.

Have you actually read what people are posting? No-one here has defended the actions of any criminal of any side. Take your blinkers off.

France, Russia and Germany are tired of war. They want to live in peace.

And civilians in Iraq want to live in freedom.

 

[nonconformist]

Freedom is having your own government. What is happening in Iraq is occupation.

 

[Patroklos]

Perhaps you are not understanding what we are saying when we talk about Allied atrocities.

We are not using them to counterweight the AXxs. They were indepedant acts that require no comparison. But if we agree that both sides committed the same "atrocity" ie sinking merchant ships in unrestricted submarine warfare (not that I think that is an atrocity) then you can't call it a "warcrime" when one side does it and ignore it for the other. Not if you are claiming to be operating on some higher ideal, which the allies were.

 

[nonconformist]

Exactly. Patroklos has my thoughts exactly. The Axis can not be condemned for crimes that were commited by the Allies. If the crimes of the Axis are to be punished, then therefore, those among the ranks of the Allies must be treated equally. Anyway, the Wehrmacht was a regular army, mostly full of regular guys. There is too much association of the SS and the Nazis with the Wehrmacht. This was even realised at Nuremburg. The SS, SD & other organisations were condemned, but not the Wehrmacht. It must be accepted that Generally the Wehrmacht was not a criminal organiasation.

 

[pstanhag]

The difference is that Lemay and Harris weren't put in jail like they should have been.

 

[Sarevok]

indeed, the Wehrmacht had nothing do do with the killings.

 

[rilnator]

Originally posted by nonconformist
It must be accepted that Generally the Wehrmacht was not a criminal organiasation.

They had no qualms about turning over Jews and political undesirables to the SS for Murder. Nor did they feel guilty when starving out a civilian population in order to feed themselves, or torching a village.
Granted, they weren't the same level as Heinrich's boys but I'd go so far to suggest they were accomplises.

 

[nonconformist]

But were all of them? Have you any proff that person for person the Wehrmacht were criminals? That every single member had committed crimes? Remember that the term "Wehrmacht" is a collective name for the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, and by calling the Wehrmacht criminal, you are calling the navy and airforce criminal at the sametime.

 

[Darth_Pugwash]

Yes, I'm sure that not everyone in the wehrmacht was a raving Nazi fanatic. We are talking about the wehrmacht as a whole here, and its actions as a whole.

Luftwaffe planes were built by slaves being worked to death.The Kreigsmarine were ordered to shoot anything not flying a Nazi flag. And, as rilnator said, the heer regularly turned over Jews and other "sub-humans" to the SS to be murdered. Tell me with a straight face that they are not crimes.

They were indepedant acts that require no comparison. But if we agree that both sides committed the same "atrocity" ie sinking merchant ships in unrestricted submarine warfare then you can't call it a "warcrime" when one side does it and ignore it for the other. Not if you are claiming to be operating on some higher ideal, which the allies were.

I agree 100%.

 

[Darth_Pugwash]

Originally posted by nonconformist
Freedom is having your own government. What is happening in Iraq is occupation.

Whatever you call it the Iraqi's are alot better off now than they were under Saddam. Steps toward a free and democratic Iraq are being made.

 

[nonconformist]

Very small steps.

 

[nonconformist]

oh, and the Luftwaffe didnèt build its own aircraft.

When describing "slaves" you must be more specific. Are these the 18+ year old people from captured territories forced to do work for the Germans, yet being treated in fairly humane ways, i.e fed, and treated in a decent manner? These have been desribed as slaves, and is one of the principle reasons for my Grandfather joining the Maquis. Another meaning of the word are people taken from concentration and death camps and forced to work, for example for Siemens or I.G Farben, and oter places. In the first sense, it is, though not correct, obviously not as bad as in the second case.


While on the subject of indoctrination, the U.S govenernment has managed to indoctrinate people into doing something that is not possible.

 

[Sarevok]

can we please chyange the subject as it dosent cover military disasters.