Biggest Disaster in WW1 & WW2

[rilnator]

Originally posted by nonconformist
But were all of them? Have you any proff that person for person the Wehrmacht were criminals? That every single member had committed crimes? Remember that the term "Wehrmacht" is a collective name for the Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, and by calling the Wehrmacht criminal, you are calling the navy and airforce criminal at the sametime.

Ok then. The Heer's head at the time (Brautisch) signed off on the Commissar Order as did Keitel (head of OKW). I have read quotes from both Manstein, Model and Heinrichi extolling there troops to make sure no food went to the local population. Of course not every one in the Wehrmacht could be likened to a crimminal but as an organisation they were far from blameless.
When Hitler ordered The Army cheifs to draw up plans for attacking Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland they did so with the utmost efficiency and no-one dared challenge hitler's word. And don't start up about the conspirators either- they were very few and did NOTHING.
The Wehrmacht was Hitlers tool for war- not the SS.

 

[Sarevok]

well in comparison the Wehrmacht was nowhere near wha t the SS did. Most of the officers ofthe Wehrmacht did not cunduct such activities and those that did and survived the war were sent to nuremberg.

 

[rilnator]

Originally posted by Sarevok
well in comparison the Wehrmacht was nowhere near wha t the SS did. Most of the officers ofthe Wehrmacht did not cunduct such activities and those that did and survived the war were sent to nuremberg.

Where they got a slap on the wrist.

 

[Sarevok]

and most of them got a... new collar around the neck

 

[rilnator]

Originally posted by Sarevok
and most of them got a... new collar around the neck

10 of them were hung after Nuremburg. Keitel and Jodl being the only army officers. Would have been 11 but Goering cheated them. Glad Ribbentrop was one of them.

 

[nonconformist]

Well, Keitel was a yes-man, and Brauschitsch did have a tendency to comply with these crimes. But for example, Erwin Rommel, Claus Von Stauffenberg, Ludwig Beck, Werner Von Haeften and many others actively opposed Hitler trying to kill him, and were executed, Claus Von Stauffenberg is reported to have died shouting "Long live a Free Germany!". These men can not be classed as criminals by a general condemnation of the Wehrmacht. Also, I am sure that most people would agree that the Kriegsmarine is the branch that have the least condemnation attributed to it. There were very few Nazis in the Kriegsmarine, and most preferred to use the code of the Imperial German Navy. One such honourable person is Werner Hartenstein, who saved many of the survivors of a ship that he had sunk. He was later killed in Action. Another such person is Kapitan Zur See Hans Langdorff who was the commander of the Admiral Graf Spee. The ship was damaged and he put it into MonteVideo harbor, and to save the lives of his crew, he used a skeleton crew to sail out of the harbour, abandon the ship, and scuttle it. He wrapped himself in the battle ensign, not displaying the swastika, and shot himself. He is buried in a Geman cemetary at Buenos Aires in Argentina. He is seen by bot sides as having ben an honourable sailor.

EDIT: Inserted the name of Kapitan Zur See Hans Langdorff. Sorry, I was going to put his name in but after looking up, I forgot to insert the name.

 

[Sarevok]

indeed, I dont know everyone who was excecuted/ tried at nuremberg. can someone list them and their sentence?

 

[Sarevok]

What I do know is Goring, and i know that one of the major Nazi guys was aquitted but I dont nkow who that was.

 

[Stefan Haertel]

Another such person is Kapitan Zur See was the commander of the Admiral Graf Spee.

You missed the name there- Kapitän zur See is only an antiquated Captain title, literally translated "Captain to the sea".

 

[Sarevok]

so that could mean many different people...

 

[Revolutionary]

Originally posted by nonconformist
While on the subject of indoctrination, the U.S govenernment has managed to indoctrinate people into doing something that is not possible.

what exactly do you mean by that?

 

[Darth_Pugwash]

Yeah that sentance makes no sense nocon.

 

[Patroklos]

The Heer's head at the time (Brautisch) signed off on the Commissar Order as did Keitel (head of OKW)

*Rumages though orders of Stalin concerning SS members.

I have read quotes from both Manstein, Model and Heinrichi extolling there troops to make sure no food went to the local population.

I would certainly hope so. The American Army has the same orders. Food stuffs earmarked for the armed forces GOES there for obvious reasons. If we earmark foodstuffs for humanitarian aid that it GOES there. The Germans were not nearly as ruthless in this regard as you are manipulating those orders to sound. On the whole the occupied territories (Western Front) ate better than any German soldier because they had their farms. Now the cities, well in a total war scenario you can expect the food supply network to funtion at less tha peak efficiency.

I guess you are expecting the Army to starve itself for the sake of its enemy? Did you expect Germany to feed all of Europe. Do you imagine any other Army of the war acted any differently? Peoples in occupied/contested zone will always suffer from this sort of thing. Welcome to war.

 

[Sarevok]

I think he means they ddint let the civilians have anything.

 

[rilnator]

Originally posted by Patroklos

I would certainly hope so. The American Army has the same orders. Food stuffs earmarked for the armed forces GOES there for obvious reasons.

I'm not talking about supplies from Germany, I'm talking about raping the land and leaving civilians with nothing- unless they were in the service of Germany. I understand the army has to be fed but the wording of these orders gives the impression of great ruthlessness.
Sarevok, those recieving the death sentence at Nuremburg were: Ribbentrop, Keitel, Kaltenbrunner, Rosenberg, Frank, frick, Streicher, Seyss-Inquart, Saukel, Goering and Jodl. Those on trial but aquitted or recieved prison sentences is too numerous to mention.

 

[Patroklos]

Then you are definetly wrong.

Read Soldat by Siegfried Knappe. The Germas bought the food from the local farms because THEY didn't have enough in occupied France. Once again, misinterrpreting the orders.

Eastern Front is different of course. As are areas in open revolt, where again you are expecting too much from combatant forces.

 

[Sarevok]

Originally posted by rilnator


I'm not talking about supplies from Germany, I'm talking about raping the land and leaving civilians with nothing- unless they were in the service of Germany. I understand the army has to be fed but the wording of these orders gives the impression of great ruthlessness.
Sarevok, those recieving the death sentence at Nuremburg were: Ribbentrop, Keitel, Kaltenbrunner, Rosenberg, Frank, frick, Streicher, Seyss-Inquart, Saukel, Goering and Jodl. Those on trial but aquitted or recieved prison sentences is too numerous to mention.

I know 3 were aquitted, who were they? prison sentences do not matter. I know that Manstein and Hess were 2 of them.

 

[nonconformist]

Among the aquitted were Hjalmar Schact, the old head of the Reichsbank. I think Fritsch might have been but I am not sure. Hess was sentenced to life imprisonment on request of the Russians and spent the rest of his life in Spandau. If I remember, Manstein was not at the Nuremberg trials. Martin Bormann was tried in Absentia and sentenced to death. He is thought to have died in Berlin. There are alsoc rumours that Bormann was a Russian spy infiltrated.

 

[Patroklos]

Hess always bothered me. I know he was instramental in the prewar ara as far as the rise of Nazism goes, but he was not privy to the most deadly years of the war or any of the holocaust proper.

Punish the man no doubt, but considering people who did so much more recieved life sentances his is out of proportion. Wasn't he clinically insane, or diminished capacity, something like that?

 

[nonconformist]

He was considered as insane yes. The Nazi government had said that he was insane after his flight to Scotland, and I think so did the people trying at Nuremberg. I think that the Russians insisted on his sentence and he stayed in Spandau to his death, despite not being instrumental during the war.