BirdNES 3: Discussions & Questions

DE NOBILITAS MOSCOVICA

...I am therefore called upon to describe the nobles of this land, their categories and standing, which are indeed quite different from what one might be accustomed to...

...The Great Prince is the supreme seigneur of all the noble people of his land; he claims descent from Rurik, who, according to the local priests, had supposedly descended from Prusas, the son of Augustus Caesar from whom the land of Prussia received its present name; that much is dubious for many reasons, but it seems indeed that the Great Prince is descended from this Rurik who came to Novgorod from beyond the sea, and also from Rurik's descendants, the Great Princes of Vladimir...

...The younger brothers of the Great Prince are considered his equals, and receive appanages of their own from the older Muscovite lands to reign over with a great degree of freedom upon the death of their father. Yet ofcourse being younger brothers their appanages are poorer and smaller than those of the Great Prince; and that is especially true now, as the present Great Prince and his father had made sure to reduce the appanages and in recent years also to limit their powers and privileges - this was a consequence of the earlier strife in the Great Principality under the present Great Prince's father, when his brother, Prince Yuri of Dmitrov, and his children had tried to seize the power of the Great Prince and had achieved great success before being defeated by the loyalty of all the other nobles. Also, the present Great Prince has made sure to seize all the vacated appanages (such as that of Yuri the Younger of Dmitrov, and also that of Andrei the Lesser of Vologda, and of some more distant relatives left over from the reign of his father) for himself whenever possible, so as to magnify his own lands and avoid strenghthening any of his brothers to a dangerous degree. For this reason, some of them had tried to rebel in the Year of Our Lord 1480, but, frightened by the Tatar invasion that had threatened the country at that time, had agreed to make peace. Still, Prince Boris reigns in Volotsk and Ruza, and Prince Andrei the Big reigns in Uglich, Zvenigorod and Serpukhov. There are also the appanages of the mother of the Great Prince, of his wife and of more distant relatives, but of them little noteworthy could be said at the time...

...The rest of the nobility regardless of their blood or their ancience or their power and rank, all-important though those may be at other times, is considered to be the servants of the Great Prince, and indeed they are all called: "the serving people", as opposed to "the taxed people", who are the peasants. They themselves bear the name of servants with pride, and judge those among their number to be the finest and most worthy of respect who are the closest to the Great Prince's person; the offices (called "chini", like all the other ranks in the Great Prince's service) of tablekeepers, cupbearers, chamberlains and stablemasters are highly sought after by the most ancient nobility; but an even higher aspiration than that is to sit on the Great Prince's private council, called the "douma", of no more than twelve people who are the Great Prince's closest confidants...

...The first among "the serving people" are the princes ("cniasi"); all the descendants of Rurik or Gedimin have rights to a princely title. Aside from the Great Prince and his immediate relatives, and the appanage princes, most such princes are no longer rulers of their own principalities, having lost them in one way or another, sometimes voluntarily conceding them to the Great Prince, and so having become princes in the Great Prince's service. At that, they often retained some or most of their old lands, but on rights of vassals and with limited privileges. Others - Rurikids and Gediminids both - had fled from the lands of the Grand Duke of Lithuania, out of disagreement with their liege or out of fear of his courtiers. The least of those princes, called princelings, serve the Great Prince in the many subjugated provinces of his realm and on other vital but inglorious duties of the state; the greatest of them sit on the douma or are otherwise close to the Great Prince. In addition to what lands they already possess, they also receive lands for their services, but keep them only for as long as they serve in one position or another...

...There are many large princely families: I must mention the Patrikeevy... the Shuiskie... the Obolenskie... the Vyazemskie... the Vorotynskie... the Kurbskie... the Belskie... the Pronskie... and the Starodubskie, although the first three families are presently the most powerful of the service princes.

...There are also princes descended from Genghis Khan of the Tatars, who however are considered distinct from the Rurikids and the Gediminids, on account of their religion and customs, and special privileges enjoed by them in the Qasimid Principality, so named after the first Tatar prince to come into the Great Prince's service. They are fierce and barbaric, but loyal as hounds and are often used by the Great Prince to perform such tasks as are necessary but best not entrusted to honest Christians...

...The greater part of the nobility is counted as boyars, who are descended from the most valorous of the retainers and courtiers of the ancient Rurikid princes. Those princes had been numerous and until more recent times independent; tehrefore they all had their own courts, and all the boyars descend from one court or another. Since the triumph of the Great Princes of Moscow and the end of the age of many courts, the boyars of the old Principaltiy of Moscow had risen above all others, the boyars of the conquered territories often being exiled and deprived of their land which was then often given to the Muscovite boyars, either adding to their patrimony, or, as is the custom of the present Great Prince, being given to them for the duration of their services (this practice is called the "pomestie", for the Great Prince places the serving people on those lands). The boyars remain, however, at the courts of the appanage princes, and those of the older princes who retained a measure of autonomy; besides, the old boyardom of the other lands has not been completely overthrown: far from it: many of them had survived in their former principalities, having proved too difficult to remove, and many others had joined the boyardom of Muscovy by intermarriage or simply coming into the Great Prince's service at the right time...

...Although the boyars have no titles, they are by no means equals: they vary in wealth, but more importantly in court offices and in the ancience and nobility of their descent, over which they often quarrel...

...Over the ages many boyar families had come into relative decline; being numerous, the successors of once powerful boyars carved up their lands into small pieces, and as this went on many became very impoverished indeed. They are considered as distinct from the other boyars, if sometimes related to more prosperous and successful branches, and are called the boyar children. Those boyar children are nonetheless a privileged group in their own right, dispersed in the provinces though it may be, and mostly provide military service, for which they are rewarded with "pomestie"...

...Aside from the boyars the Great Prince is served also by the nearbies ("okolnichi"), people of humble descent but great ability and loyalty who are entrusted in helping the boyars in many tasks related to the positions of the latter in civil government and other, and whose children may be elevated to boyardom. It is said that they are always the second to the boyars in all matters, and for every boyar position there is an "okolnichii", with similar but lesser privileges and obligations...

...Lastly there are the courtiers, or the court officials, or the court servants, in other words the "dvoryane"; they are the descendants of the older court servants who answered to the Great Princes directly and assisted in the running of the palace; judging them to be more loyal than the boyars despite their very humble descent, the Great Princes often entrusted them more and more important tasks, and at first rewarded them with little more than gratitude and favours, but with time begun to grant the most distinguished of them lands as "pomestie"; this is especially true under the current Great Prince, nonetheless many "dvoryane" have no lands to call their own, and are nobility only by their other privileges and their service to the Great Prince. The "dvoryane", though overshadowed by boyars in civil government and supreme military command, nonetheless too possess important positions in local government, but especially in the military service, for they are considered more hardy and reliable than the boyar children...
 
Asia needs more players.
 
I feel like my orders were sub-par :(.

800 words with stories
400 without
 
The Inka should have sent orders, as I was there when Soldierchild wrote and sent them. They should have came 10 minutes or so after mine did.
Thanks, I did find them, but they were mixed with a pile of non game related pms that I am prone to getting now. :(

And thanks Soldierchild, for resending too.

Are the nations in blue free? Are any of the NPC nations not listed therein available?
Yes, and NPCs are an option. let me know what your thinking about. Asia would be nice.
 
Okay, I haven't tried any NESes before, but BananaLee suggested I took a look at this one, so can you sign me up as Ireland, tentatively.

I hope you'll have some patience with a newbie, BirdJaguar (I like your avatar, I have it flagged as the "number one album that shaped my life", that one).

So, if you've got the time to help me get started, a "tutorial"-pm would be nice, otherwise I'll read the entire thread, try to grasp everything, have my brains explode and then improvise along the way (school style).

edit: I just figured there is actually a sig-up thread aswell. Sorry for posting here.
Also, the nation descriptions and the list of taken nations seems to differ. If Ireland is taken (it is on one of the lists), I'll go with Saxony (which is free on that list).
I moved your post to this thread. Saxony would be a better choice than Ireland, as would Denmark or Sweden. Whatever you choose, your stats will be posted with the update.

The best way to grasp what is going on is to read the rules, then the how to write orders. The rules tell you a bit about how things work and what the stats mean. As king, you will just spend money on what you want to do. The rules structure just tells you how to organize and explain your spending so I can understand it.

If you have questions, post them here. I will answer or some knowledgeable player will if I'm not around.

The game thread is for "In Character" posts and you can post there freely as your nation. When the update is done, I will post that in the game thread. Questions, discussions and stray remarks can go here or in the WWW thread.
 
Birdjaguar, I want a advance notice of how my guys will respond with my policy!

Ugly Please!

Pretty Please!
 
Birdjaguar, I want a advance notice of how my guys will respond with my policy!

Ugly Please!

Pretty Please!
So you want me to reveal a portion of the update to you before I post it for everyone to see? Now if I did would that mean I would have to reveal a little bit to every player in advance to be fair? So is it better for me to write up 30+ "little bits" and post them in an out of context list, or should I just do them all as part of the update where they will be in a meaningful context?

What if I could honor your request by typing a single character or maybe two. Would that suffice your need to know?

Now, after having taken a look at your policy, I see that it is a bit specific for a policy, so will have to generalize it. for example, I your written policy was (and I am making this up folks so don't laugh at Charles) "When dogs do tricks, give them a cookie." then I would generalize it to something like: "Well behaved dogs that entertain the king and his people will be rewarded."
 
@ Kraznaya: Do you know what nation you want? It would be helpful to know now so I can do their stats with all the other nations.
 
Yes they are. If you are up to it, you may send orders for this turn since I have not them yet. but I need them by Friday. If you are not sure about what to send, just make an attempt. I won't let you make any serious errors. :)
 
I'm currently researching the Safavids, and it appears as if in OTL dynasty was not declared established until the reign of Ismail I in 1502. In addition, the ruler listed under the nation profile, Y‘aqub ibn Uzun Hasan, is actually of the Aq Qoyunlu dynasty who were conquered by the Safavids. I'm quite confused as to which direction to proceed now. Should I just assume that the Safavid dynasty has already been founded and Y'aqub is the ruler of it?
 
I'm currently researching the Safavids, and it appears as if in OTL dynasty was not declared established until the reign of Ismail I in 1502. In addition, the ruler listed under the nation profile, Y‘aqub ibn Uzun Hasan, is actually of the Aq Qoyunlu dynasty who were conquered by the Safavids. I'm quite confused as to which direction to proceed now. Should I just assume that the Safavid dynasty has already been founded and Y'aqub is the ruler of it?
I am not an expert either. The Safavids were on the rise as the neighbors to the south declined. I listed Y‘aqub ibn Uzun Hasan as the ruler in 1490; that does appear to be an error he led the white sheep.

The Safavids were shi'ite and sufi oriented unlike their sunni nieghbors. maybe this will help:

A militant Islamic Sufi order, the Safavids, appeared among Turkish speaking people of west of the Caspian Sea, at Ardabil. The Safavid order survived the invasion of Timur to that part of the Iran in the late 13th century. By 1500 the Safavids had adopted the Shi'a branch of Islam and were eager to advance Shi'ism by military means. Safavid males used to wear red headgear. They had great devotion for their leader as a religious leader and perfect guide as well as a military chieftain, and they viewed their leaders position as rightly passed from father to son according to the Shi'a tradition. In the year 1500, Esma'il the thirteen-year-old son of a killed Safavid leader, Sheikh Heydar, set out to conquer territories and avenge death of his father. In January 1502, Esma'il defeated the army of Alvand Beig of Aq Qoyunlu, ruler of Azerbaijan, and seized Tabriz and made this city his capital. Safavids went on and conquered rest of Azerbaijan, Armenia and Khorasan; They became the strongest force in Iran, and their leader, Esma'il, now fifteen, was declared Shah (King) on 11 March 1502.

Sheikh Heydar would be your leader in 1490 with his son in the wings.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/safavids/safavids.php
 
That's a pretty good link and should help you get started. I'm off to bed, but post any more questions here and I will answer them tomorrow.
 
According to my research, Sheikh Heydar died in 1488, and his elder son Ali was killed soon after. So Ismail would, officially be the leader of the Safavids.

I haven't encountered a "Great Council" in my reading so I'm not sure where that's from. In my opinion, better factions would be the Qizilbash (who would be both loyal and more powerful than Ismail at this point) and the Persian urbanites, who would both have a few loyalty problems and hold some share of power. The peasantry were generally loyal to the Safavids due to dissatisfaction with Aq Qoyunlu misrule.

I'm looking at the map and I'm assuming that the faded pink is the Aq Qoyunlu that is about to go into civil war? The capitals of the Safavids and Aq Qoyunlu were Ardabil and Tabriz respectively, and you can see they are quite close to each other upon checking with wiki, and the map would have to be modified to reflect Aq Qoyunlu control of Tabriz. Also, Persia itself was rather disunited if the wikipedia article on the dynasty is to believed, with local city rulers. I don't know if much of the area not actually around Tabriz should be reflected in pink at this point.

I also noticed that people got to pick their colors, so can I please be either color of the Safavid flag? Thanks.
Safavid_Flag.png
 
The Safavids ofcourse have not quite taken over Persia yet, but the current state there has for all intents and purposes collapsed into feudal/tribal anarchy, and the Safavids are the most efficient of the factions fighting to fill the power vacuum. They certainly have much more of a future than the White Sheep Sultanate. As for the factions within the factions, the Qizilbashi and the Persian urban sect members will do fine; the Persian aristocracy (not very loyal, but indispensable in civil service being definitely the most politically experienced and educated part of the society) is also not to be ignored. Possibly also the local Turkic and Kurdish dynastic nobility (Aq Qoyunlu and leftovers of other dynasties; not really very strong or useful, but still definitely a political factor) as something to fight or reach a compromise with.

And, ofcourse, there are peasants.
 
Another faction that could have a color on the map would be the Shirvanshah and the Shirvan state, with the capital at Baku. They too are declining though, and about to be swallowed by the Safavids.

My question is, do I get to count the struggle for Persian/Azerbaijani supremacy as an ongoing war (so I don't have to use Initiative Points on declaring war on various factions)?

EDIT: I currently have a ghost of an order list which I will edit to match whatever changes are made to the current ambiguous situation.
 
The Safavids ofcourse have not quite taken over Persia yet, but the current state there has for all intents and purposes collapsed into feudal/tribal anarchy, and the Safavids are the most efficient of the factions fighting to fill the power vacuum. They certainly have much more of a future than the White Sheep Sultanate. As for the factions within the factions, the Qizilbashi and the Persian urban sect members will do fine; the Persian aristocracy (not very loyal, but indispensable in civil service being definitely the most politically experienced and educated part of the society) is also not to be ignored. Possibly also the local Turkic and Kurdish dynastic nobility (Aq Qoyunlu and leftovers of other dynasties; not really very strong or useful, but still definitely a political factor) as something to fight or reach a compromise with.

And, ofcourse, there are peasants.

That's some good summarized information das, let's see what Birdjag makes of it :goodjob:
 
My question is, do I get to count the struggle for Persian/Azerbaijani supremacy as an ongoing war (so I don't have to use Initiative Points on declaring war on various factions)?

Well, as I said, since the 1470s or so (the collapse of effective central Aq Qoyunlu authority after the military defeat at the hands of the Ottoman Empire, the death of the last great Aq Qoyunlu sultan and the splintering of the main dynasty into two branches and two rival courts, both too weak to control the provinces, if I recall correctly) it has for all practical purposes been a free-for-all; nobody there bothered to declare war on one another by this point, and every local warlord, prince or sect fought whoever they could reach except maybe for their allies, who were often very temporary.

Hence, ofcourse, the historical popularity of the Safavids.
 
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