BirdNES 3: When Worlds Collide

[spryllino]

I would find it daunting to write content for all those people for the synod. I am slow enough with updates that such a task would certainly not help. I suggest that for the named persons (Erasmus, Luther, and Zwingli) that others (you?) select bits of their actual writings and use those. At this point the ideas of the reformers do not differ from thoe of OTL 1520. As for all the other church folks, I'm not sure how to handle them. Ideas welcome on this.

OOC: All I want is a summary of the Clergy's general opinion on reform and protestantism, and also I hope that bringing the two leaders together will have effects on how their doctrine develops. Surely bringing Luther and Zwingli together in one place with each other and with senior clergy before it happened OTL will have some impact on their theological teaching, and is therefore a highly valid action for a player to make? This is, after all, an alternate timeline. If theology remains the same as in OTL regardless of whatever I do, that misses the point a bit.

I may also desire to do things with/to the people invited when they arrive in Venice before the Signoria. I don't need the opinion of each of those characters; I just need to know which of them do something notable at my Synod.

Also, the invitation to speak of all the people I invited is very clearly necessary for the calling of a Synod; therefore, I invited them. They don't all have to say anything important.

It appears (and correct me if I am wrong) that you are trying to ascertain the degree to which the reformation is impacting northern Italy. If this is the case, I might suggest an alternative. Let me work out on my own how and where the reformist movemment is spreading, based on my "plan" and player orders (some may wish to supress and others encourage). Then i will include a section in the update on what's happening where. That write up might provide nough guidance for the next turns orders. What do you think?

My planned Synod is not exclusively for that purpose. I specifically desire to see what the people and Signoria actually think of the reformation when it is presented to them in the form of a Synod, and I specifically want an important ecclesiastical event to happen in Venice this turn, and I specifically want Luther and Zwingli to come into contact/conflict/agreement with each other and with senior clergy early, in such a way that it potentially actually changes history.


If this is too complicated or difficult or time-consuming, so be it; I won't do it if you don't want me to. But then again, it's what I actually want to do as a player, and, as this is actually an alternate history, I say it should be allowed, and allowed to have the logical impact on history that it would actually have had if it had happened.

 

[The Strategos]

and also I hope that bringing the two leaders together will have effects on how their doctrine develops. Surely bringing Luther and Zwingli together in one place with each other and with senior clergy before it happened OTL will have some impact on their theological teaching, and is therefore a highly valid action for a player to make? This is, after all, an alternate timeline. If theology remains the same as in OTL regardless of whatever I do, that misses the point a bit.

Zwingli, Luther, and Erasmus (as well as others) have already met during the Ecumenical Council of Rome.

Once the glory of the King of France had departed for home, the Council got down to work. With the blessing of both the King of France and Pope Gregorious XIII, the rules of the council were laid out: The now united Church would reign supreme over the council and moderate suggestions for change in Church practices would be heard. This was a time to celebrate the healing and not wake the demons of past. The Pope himself would participate. The early rounds of discussion were interesting and Father Francis listened attentively. Leo Jud spoke eloquently for a German Bible; Huldrych Zwingli for a rethinking theology and the role of the Church in daily lives as did Francis Lambert. Desiderius Erasmus argued for more thought and less rhetoric and a slow measured pace of change that kept the Holy See firmly in charge as God’s agent in the world. Martin Luther, Hans Denck, and Philip Melanchthon saw little reason to speak as more and more attendees put celebration before change, any change. Within two month all who had come to the Council hopeful for reform had left disappointed. Francis was disappointed too, for with the departures of the likes of Luther, Denck, and Zwingli, little of any real interest was being talked about. By the winter of 1511-12 the great Ecumenical was all but over. Grandiose pronouncements made small reforms seem important and the Yule time masses were especially rewarding for all who partook in them that year. Father Francis spent the winter in Naples corresponding with both Luther and Zwingli. He chuckled every time he remembered Zwingli’s comment that the Council was like a caravan bringing cheese to Parma. Leo Jud and Martin Luther were talking about a German translation of the Bible.

 

[spryllino]

Thanks. In that case, I'm extremely surprised their theology is so unchanged from OTL. However, I still wish to allow them to meet again in Venice in 1525/6.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I wonder if if it would be interesting to allow people to play the various religious characters and develop their theologies over time. In the role of Luther, say, a player could direct his followers and perhaps where his reforms became rooted. These might be short roles since people usually don't last as long as nations. Any thoughts on the subject?

 

[Immaculate]

Birdjaguar- i sent you some orders but realized i made some rather serious omissions- can you just delete them for now puh-lease?

EDIT: Sorry to spam your mailbox.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Sure.

 

[spryllino]

I wonder if if it would be interesting to allow people to play the various religious characters and develop their theologies over time. In the role of Luther, say, a player could direct his followers and perhaps where his reforms became rooted. These might be short roles since people usually don't last as long as nations. Any thoughts on the subject?

Good idea. But still, can you tell me whether the people I invited are intending to turn up or not?

LittleBoots: can you also reply to my diplo please.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I'm sure they will show.

 

[Luckymoose]

LB you can go straight to Hell.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Popes don't go to hell. A few weeks in purgatory maybe, but not hell.

 

[LittleBoots]

Popes don't go to hell. A few weeks in purgatory maybe, but not hell.

Dante disagrees. Also, for what its worth Bird (and with all due respect), I don't like the idea.

As for Lucky's proclamation, I believe my response was misunderstood by just about everybody. People never understand nuance dammit. I wasn't saying that England gets to keep their colony. I was saying that the New World is open to colonization by powers that clear it with the Pope and can be worked in to the New World order of powers peacefully. England et al failed to meet this criteria so the current interloper colonies are illegitimate.

Also, spry, resend, I don't have diplo from you, only a notification about something to take under advisement, which I did in fact take under advisement.

 

[Immaculate]

Wow- i totally didn't get that from your post.

 

[Immaculate]

I wasn't saying that England gets to keep their colony. I was saying that the New World is open to colonization by powers that clear it with the Pope and can be worked in to the New World order of powers peacefully. England et al failed to meet this criteria so the current interloper colonies are illegitimate.

In that case Pope Gregory, please provide your idea of a solution to the existing colonies of England and Scotland. Please be explicit and precise. England feels it has done everything it could to cooperate and clarify the solution and awaits upon your grace to provide some direction.

Is there a solution that does not involve the withdrawal of these colonies? And if so, what is it?

(OOC: this all started because i didn't even know of your treaty)

 

[Toteone]

I'm surprised Kalmar appears to be open, it looks really strong if still rather fragile after the rebellion. I'd love to have it, what with me being half Norwegian and Das being over in Russia and Prinny joining as the Teutons.
I don't quite understand this NES though, and I'll need a few PMs as to current projects, policies and so on, but may I reserve the Kalmar Union for next round?
I'm still reading up on histories.

 

[Adrogans]

Current Players:

Kalmar Union Shadowbound

Genoa NPC
Florence NPC
Ottoman Empire NPC
Ethiopia NPC
Ayutthaya NPC
Malacca NPC
Mughals NPC
Delhi Sultanate NPC
Inka NPC

FYI Toteone

 

[Toteone]

Thnx ^^
I'll have a look at Genoa and Florence while waiting till next turn.

 

[spryllino]

Attn LittleBoots

To His Holiness Gregorius XIII Vicarius Christi, and also more Generally to all the notables of Christendom, and Particularly to the Clergy of the Most Serene Republic
From the Signoria of the Most Serene Republic of Venice

We do solemnly announce that it has been decided to hold a General Synod of the Venetian Church in autumn of the year of our Lord 1525. Therefore, it pleases the Signoria of Venice to invite observers from all lands, and we shall be considering the matter of Church reform along with other concerns that it behooves our Church to contemplate, whether we see fit to receive new concepts with acceptance or with disgust. Therefore, we see fit to invite to address the Synod or to send statements to the Synod: the Patriarchs of Venice and Aquileia, the Archbishops of Ravenna, Zara, Milan, Spalato, Ragusa, and Antivari, also Erasmus, Luther, and Zwingli. All bishops with dioceses partly or wholly within Venetian territory are invited to attend and discuss the issues with the Prelates and with the Signoria. Any noble or clergyman from Christendom is welcome to attend, subject to the availability of seating; some places will be reserved for men of greater notability who wish to attend. Of course, we desire with all our heart that the Pope should attend and participate in person as he sees fit or send a Legate if His Holiness is preoccupied.

In addition, the Signoria wishes the Synod to discuss the issue of the establishment of a new Archdiocese at Tunis that the true faith may prosper and be spread even unto the places where the heathen hitherto prospered, and we desire and beseech the blessing of the Pope in this endeavour that the Signoria may establish an Archbishopric and nominate a suitable Archbishop to take up office.

 

[LittleBoots]

OOC: Spry, for reasons I believe Strat has already voiced, I'm a little confused why you want to hold another one. The one held in Rome was a pretty big production, and pretty close to Venice. And sorry I missed this, though you meant a PM'd diplo.

 

[Prinny]

OK, so Austria won't hear me even if I offer allegiance. Russia and Kalmar haven't answered either.

To Russia and Kalmar
The Teutonic Order offers feudal allegiance, vassaldom and trade with a Feudal Overlord. We will even provide our protector with an annual five-year tribute of 500 gold!

 

[LittleBoots]

TO:
John, the First of that Name, by the Grace of God King of All Spain, Most Pious Servant of God's Church
Henry, the Eighth of that Name, by the Grace of God King of England and Wales, Most Faithful Child of God
John, the Second of that Name, by the Grace of God King of Portugal, Most Catholic King
James, the Fifth of that Name, by the Grace of God King of the Scots, Most Wise Councilor
FROM:
Gregory, Servant of the Servants of God

On the matter of the illicit colonies which have by unhappy circumstance been established in the New World, we find no solution arrives easily to our mind, nor any new plan which may bear fruit without the pains of birth which Eve passed down as her inheritance to humankind. For here are the circumstances with which the Body of Christ must contend: first, that an ordinance was erected by this office and in accordance with the thrones of Spain and Portugal, for the right ordering of the Body of Christ and the Lord's work in the New World, such that the evils of war and competition which have so plagued mankind since our expulsion from Earthly Paradise might be avoided; second, that this treaty barred from entrance into the New World any monarch seeking his own glory above the glory of God, and conferred upon any new entrants the responsibility of conducting themselves in such a manner as to avoid all possibility of the sinful strivings of Brother against Brother, that is, the responsibility to plan in full accord and cooperation with the Body of Christ; thirdly, that the English colonies which now exist in the New World were established, whether willfully or no, without making such arrangements with the Body of Christ as it exists in the New World; fourthly, that nevertheless the English colony exists, and has existed in the New World for some years yet before this matter reached this court.

Thus, the matter cannot be so simple as to command the removal of the English colony, for there are now converts to Christ's Church for whom the English alone provide ministry, and a native population with which no missionary has yet had contact, save for English missionaries; yet neither can the Body of Christ stand idly by, so that the New World become quickly contaminated by wickedness and transgressions of promises, for if no precedent is set here, there exists no barrier for worldliness to poison the minds of kings against the word of authority contained in God's Church in the Throne of Saint Peter and against the strictures laid down by that office for the good of the New World (namely, that it be preserved from violence).

Therefore, we entreat the lords here addressed to consider the following compromise: that England be confined to the island upon which it has made landfall and to which it now owes the duty of Christian ministry for a period of one hundred years, pledging to make no further attempts at colonization outside of this sphere, and joyfully submitting itself, in communion with the same act of submission made by Spain and Portugal in the original proclamation, to a spirit of cooperation and unity in the mighty work of evangelism in the New World. Furthermore, that the English maintain no more than a defensive navy in the New World, and that fleet to be no more than half the size of the Spanish and Portuguese New World fleets, as a demonstration of peaceful intentions.

In this solution, we find the spirit of sacrifice to which all are daily called. No profit shall be had here, but only a renewed focus upon the unbaptized heathen in the New World who stands in daily peril of his soul. Further, no New World lord shall have any cause to fear one another, for the lands are strictly divided, just as the work for the day is strictly divided amongst the brothers of a monastery.

Let us put aside childish squabbles over the petty kingdoms of this world and work together for coming kingdom of Christ Jesus, Our True and Only Lord, to Whom be Honor, and Power, and Glory forever and ever. Amen

((OOC: Didn't remember exactly how Scotland fit into this mess, but just replace England with England and Scotland where appropriate))