Bismarck vs Hitler: End of debate!

Portuguese: Hitler was Austrian from his nationality, but ethnically a German. Austria-Hungary was a multi-ethnic empire, in which Germans and Hungarians ruled over alot of others, most of them Slavs.
Austria has been a German state like Prussia or Bavaria. It was included in the nationalists ideas of a unified country (the Great German solution). But Austria and Prussia struggled for hegemony and when Prussia won in the war of 1866 they left Austria out of the new country (the Small German solution).
That doesn't mean Austria suddenly wasn't German anymore. The German nationalism has historically been more along ethnic lines than along state borders ("Germany is where Germans are").
Hitler was a follower of this idea. He identified himself with the German state (the Reich) and not with Austria-Hungary. That's why he joined the German (and not the Austrian) army in WW1.
That's also why he annexed Austria in 1938, his goal was to finally implement the "Great German solution".

unscratchedfott: I think the problem is rather the designing of the leaderheads. That would take alot of time.
 
Originally posted by SpincruS
Although I don't think Hitler is a good representative of the German folk, I deny the fact that he was not German.

People say "he was Austrian!"

What race are Austrian then?

They are a mixture of Magyar (Hungarian), Chech, Slovak and German folks.

However, they are mostly German.

Before Germany united, they were LOTS OF little states such as Saxony, Baviara, Bohemia, Teutonic Order, blah, blah... Austria was one of those.

The only reason Austria is a SEPERATE country today is the Habsburg family annexing Hungary, vassalizing Bohemia, conquering the Netherlands and having one of the greatest borders in all Europe after Spain, France, and maybe the Ottomans.

HOWEVER;

As a half-Austrian half-Turkish guy living in the United States for 2 years already, I don't like the "OH NAZIS ARE THE GREATEST" kind of mentality. I mean, there was one mod that I downloaded a few days ago (or it was just a unit by the Waffen SS group or whatever).


Man, if you really want to know more about the 2nd World War history, I can introduce you to my uncle who was a FLAK gunner taken captive by the Americans towards the end of the war and give you the diaries of my grandfather who was an in-field radio operator who was forced to shoot Italian soldiers whom they played poker with the other night, just because they switched sides.
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Hi, first of all- noone entered this discussion with such attitudes of glorifying NAZIDOM ok. We distance ourselves from such wrong idealism - it even reads in our tag at the bottom of this post !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And I think since it was a world war many more people may have relatives who can (still)tell us about these times. It is very usefull and should be done as long as we still have them around :)- very good points about Austria and Germany too !!! :D
---
"Just Because they switched sides" :confused: excuse me, but it is war and the guy that I have been fighting with decides he doesn't give a darn and joins the guys that are shooting at me: that IS a tiny little problem, don't you think ????????????? Specially American history should tell you what the price is for wanting to split - Hi General Custer, see ya Abraham Lincoln, how are the mushrooms Mr. Truman, welcome to Panama Ronald (and I don't mean McDonalds)...? I hope that we agree that war is not really a nice thing for the public that has to face it?

This thread initially was meant for discussing leaderhead issues (despite the fact that it was very nice getting birthday greetings yesterday :crazyeye: ), shall we cntinue, please. My favourite is still Kaiser Wilhelm I (its in the beard;))
 
Originally posted by Portuguese
Hitler didn't have many ethnical origins (not only german...)?
I heard he himself has jewish blood in his veins...
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The rumours are probably inacurate, but it is true that A H's family was subject to incestous relations and extra-marital "connections" to other families (he in fact had an English nephew due to other family member's- well U know)
 
WINTER:


Adolph was half Jewish, from his fathers side. His father is known to have physically abused Adolph as a boy & it is rumured that he was also sexually abused. Of course it does not excuse his actions but this info may help to expalin why Hilter fell in with the Nazis when he moved to Vienna.
 
His father was not jewish but rumours suggested that Alois Hitler had been born illegitimately from his mother's relation with a man of "jewish blood". That would - in the UNLIKELY case this were true- make Hitler only 1/8th 'Jewish-blooded' at the most, altough I consider theses rumours as of the same quality as the allegation of Heydrich's Jewish origin (he wasn't but those enious or afraid of him spread these rumours).
 
Originally posted by Loaf Warden
Joan of Arc died long before gunpowder was brought to Europe, and therefore long before the French began using Musketeers.
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Small quibble: Europe already had gunpowder when Joan died (1430-1431 I believe). Recall the massive use of cannon by the Ottomans in the final battle over Constantinople (1453).

However, gunpowder at that time was used mainly for artillery, rather than for small arms. And of course, there would have been no musketeers.

That aside, I totally agree with the sentiment of your post: Bismarck was a far more "German" leader than Hitler. Hitler was a lunatic and a maniac, whereas Bismarck was intelligent, well-educated, sober, brilliant if somewhat anal and stodgy -- all the qualities we associate with Germans. :)
 
Well, IN ANY CASE, I'm sure german people would be really disgusted if Hitler was their leader. Believe me when I say I would be very angry if Franco was Spain's leader
 
I personnaly don't mind either Hitler or Bismark as the leader of germany. What I don't understand is Janne d'Arc being leader of France. She belong as an hero, but most defenetly not a leader. Bring back Napoleon!
 
Originally posted by Evincar
Well, IN ANY CASE, I'm sure german people would be really disgusted if Hitler was their leader. Believe me when I say I would be very angry if Franco was Spain's leader
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Well, that's gonna be the same story as with people opting for or against Hitler. U will find those that are either for it, don't bother and those that would rather see some other face on their screen...
 
Viva l'Empreur! :D

Erm, yes, that's right.

I agree with nearly everyone else here. Bismarck is great. Frederick II wouldn't be bad either. Hitler would be a PR and historical fiasco.
 
Originally posted by Bismarck

Small quibble: Europe already had gunpowder when Joan died (1430-1431 I believe). Recall the massive use of cannon by the Ottomans in the final battle over Constantinople (1453).
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Ah, yes. You're right. I had misremembered the century in which that German monk figured out how to use gunpowder to shoot projectiles. I was thinking it was later than it was; checking my sources, it turns out that did happen before the birth of Joan of Arc. And I can't believe I forgot about the siege of Constantinople! My bad. Thank you for pointing that out. :)
 
Hey you really cool guy, Hitler was a German leader, he was a member of the NAZI party...just like republican here...

2nd of all there are many fine germans

Bismarck, Frederick, Hitler so you really don't need to include hitler, i like having hitler in the game cause i never play as Germans...

Moderator Action: Hmm, dredging up a six-month old thread, just to troll. I think a 3-day ban is appropriate.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Originally posted by Lord Ed McManus
Hey you really cool guy,
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That does not work here. Don't do it again. Hopefully the rest of you will have enough sense not to respond to his post.
 
Just a couple brief comments:

a leader is by definition one who directs action. A leader can be good, bad, greatly positive or greatly negative. Stalin was a Russian leader for some time but not a great positive leader, yet he still was a leader.

Why do leaders only have to be military/political? Granted there is a lot of military/political action in this game but that didn't stop France or India in having more peaceful leaders.

Suggested German leaders by era:

ancient-- Barbarossa
middle-- Martin Luther
industrial-- Wilhelm
modern-- MissingInAction ;-)

== PF
 
I agree with you, Bismarck should be the leader over Hitler. Not only should he be so for historical reasons, but personally I would shudder every time I saw Hitler's leaderhead, as his likeness is associated with such negative thoughts and emotions for me and for so many others. I vote for the Iron Chancellor wholeheartedly.
 
Originally posted by planetfall

Suggested German leaders by era:

ancient-- Barbarossa
middle-- Martin Luther
industrial-- Wilhelm
modern-- MissingInAction ;-)
Click to expand...

Barbarossa is a good choice -- but he lived in the middle ages, not in ancient times. He was (I believe) the Holy Roman Emperor who joined the third crusade for liberating Jerusalem.

Charlemagne would be a reasonable medieval choice too (though he could just as legitimately be associated with France).

Alaric might be a good choice for an ancient German leader.

And of course, Bismarck is the perfect industrial leader (his name is almost synonymous with "great statesman" :) )

EDIT: Maybe not Alaric. I'm getting tired of all these "leaders" whose one claim to fame is that they stood up to the Romans (Hannibal, Brennus, etc.)
 
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