Black-American Civilizations!

[Henri Christophe]

I don't know what that has to do with anything? I'm white and from the U.S. but my interest, at least in American History, is Native Americans.

Of course it is important. Acctually you totally understand the Native American as a White-US-American should understand it.
Don't matter if the US-American is Republican or Democrat, if they want to kill or save the native Americans, almost all US-Americans will think the Native American someone else, other, and I guess most american respect them, because who wants to destroy the Natives, is because is afraid to be destroyed by them.

You, as a White-US-American, propably think the US-Nation begins around 1776, think in George Washigton as a founder father of your nation. Propably, if I argue the United States begins at 1142 you propably will think I'm crazy.

The history is narrative, you will understand your world as you learn in your sources, propably by school, some television and Wikipedia.
Who teach your history? Who made the sources you read? I guess all is made by White person, who believed in enlightenment principles.

Enlightenment principles was under the minds of ALL founder father of Modern States, George Washigton, L'Overture, Simón Bolivar, Napoleón, Bismarck, Catarina of Russia, Queen Victoria. All was influeced by enlightenment principles.
The same enlightenment principles the white had when conquer the farwest, when scrambled Africa, when made the Tasmania genocide.
Just after Nazi-Holocaust and Apartheid some in the west start to understand is something wrong.... Few look to the bases of our enlightenment principles.

 

[Sirsquier]

Dude calm down.

Personally I have never went to school and learned history from stories and my own research. I love history and think some people have a slightly skewed view of it.
The word slave literally came from the people my father is descended from. Does that mean I hate Germans? No. (I'm also part german LOL.)
People all over the world killed other nations and destroyed cultures. Islamic Africans would kill or enslave non-Muslims. The Romans would enslave celts. In fact the first slaves in America where Irish. (They couldn't get enough of them and natives couldn't live long near whites because of diseases so they switched to Africans)
It wasn't a race thing until much later. Up to the 1800s, you could have white slaves in America.

On another point about the natives. Think about it more like this and America won't look evil. The Romans conquered the celts. The Nubians conquered the Egyptians. The Normans conquered the Saxons. The Mongols conquered the Chinese. The Americans conquered the natives. See a pattern???

I have a varied background in history. I read books, articles, watch videos, watch movies (I once watched one from the confederates point of view). I'm an American. I'm not English, Irish, German, Slavic, Czech, Native/Black Slave (Maybe), Italian. My ancestors where. I'm not. I'm an American. The only thing I am is an American.

Also on the architecture and government. I'm sorry to state but if you want us to built or statehouses out of bark and animal hides or dung and stakes you're nuts. Would you like to have a monarchy?

 

[Guandao]

Britannica can be a great source about white history, If I read something about the Greeks in Britannica source I would agree, I would believe.
But, when speak about not white societies, Britannica can be the worst source possible.

This short video of Ted Ed speak about how British source can be trick and have racist-political issues.

I was disappointed by the Wonder Quote and Civilopedia entry for Great Zimbabwe in Civ6, because they kept on believing the Queen of Sheba theory was more interesting that the actual truth: that the ancestors of the Shona people built Great Zimbabwe. I'm sure there were better quotes to choose from than one from the Bible about the Queen of Sheba.

Personally I have never went to school and learned history from stories and my own research. I love history and think some people have a slightly skewed view of it.

You never went to school? Or do you mean you were homeschooled?

People all over the world killed other nations and destroyed cultures. Islamic Africans would kill or enslave non-Muslims. The Romans would enslave celts. In fact the first slaves in America where Irish. (They couldn't get enough of them and natives couldn't live long near whites because of diseases so they switched to Africans)
It wasn't a race thing until much later. Up to the 1800s, you could have white slaves in America.

On another point about the natives. Think about it more like this and America won't look evil. The Romans conquered the celts. The Nubians conquered the Egyptians. The Normans conquered the Saxons. The Mongols conquered the Chinese. The Americans conquered the natives. See a pattern???

I don't think he was claiming Americans are "evil", though the American government is guilty of many atrocities towards various ethnic groups (Native Americans, African Americans, etc). It's not ok in my opinion to conquer other peoples anymore. Nor is it ok to force assimilation on others, like the Euro- Americans were doing with the Native Americans (Residential schools, banning religious practices, discouraging the speaking of Native American languages). But knowing how many elites/politicians are like, these kind of stuff will sadly continue into the future. Thing is, all those examples you listed involved peoples from the same continent, the Europeans were from a different continent than the Amerindians.

I'm an American. I'm not English, Irish, German, Slavic, Czech, Native/Black Slave (Maybe), Italian. My ancestors where. I'm not. I'm an American. The only thing I am is an American.

Would you consider me simply an "American"? My parents were born in Malaysia, of Southern Chinese descent from Hainan and Fujian, immigrated to USA legally. I was born on American soil and I'm a American citizen.

Also on the architecture and government. I'm sorry to state but if you want us to built or statehouses out of bark and animal hides or dung and stakes you're nuts. Would you like to have a monarchy?

Your comment is borderline offensive. He's saying they don't have build governments inspired by "Greco-Roman" styles. Why not create a unique American architectural style, with some influence from Native American styles? It's obvious people don't build with bark or animal hides or dung nowadays.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Dude calm down.

Personally I have never went to school and learned history from stories and my own research. I love history and think some people have a slightly skewed view of it.
The word slave literally came from the people my father is descended from. Does that mean I hate Germans? No. (I'm also part german LOL.)
People all over the world killed other nations and destroyed cultures. Islamic Africans would kill or enslave non-Muslims. The Romans would enslave celts. In fact the first slaves in America where Irish. (They couldn't get enough of them and natives couldn't live long near whites because of diseases so they switched to Africans)
It wasn't a race thing until much later. Up to the 1800s, you could have white slaves in America.

´

You are totally rigth, slavery ever existed in the world, even Plato was slave for while.
But any slavery was similar to the Trans-Atlantic slavery, is the first time slavery have a racial background.
After the Frenchrevolution many people will start to use words as Slave, Black and Negros as sinonimous. Do you think is it normal?
The muslim had slaves don't matter their race, have black and white slaves a like.
Before the french revolution had many black slaves who grew in positions of power, my favorite example is Yasuke, who together to Oda Nobunaga united the Japan, Japanese just become a bit racist after some contact with the British, when they learn how is the Civilized way to be.

On another point about the natives. Think about it more like this and America won't look evil. The Romans conquered the celts. The Nubians conquered the Egyptians. The Normans conquered the Saxons. The Mongols conquered the Chinese. The Americans conquered the natives. See a pattern???

´

I don't understand the Indo-European expansion as like Mongols expansion. Mongols expansions now a days are country as China, Russia, India, Iran. The Mongol empire never try to erase the people where they conquer. Don't try to erase their culture, their language, their religion.
Western society is influenced by Sargon, the Babylon idea of a Magnifique Urban Center, the Giant Empire as Persia and Rome.
The same barbaric germans who conquer Rome, learn with Rome and expand they self around the world as Rome. Visigoths become Romans as Spanishes.
And all Phonecian, Berber, Celtic heritage in Spanish Visigoth kings? Untill the Enlightment isn't easy to solve this issue, but now is easy, all European nations, all Chirstian nations are Greek-Roman heritage.

I have a varied background in history. I read books, articles, watch videos, watch movies (I once watched one from the confederates point of view). I'm an American. I'm not English, Irish, German, Slavic, Czech, Native/Black Slave (Maybe), Italian. My ancestors where. I'm not. I'm an American. The only thing I am is an American.

I would like to understand what is your understanding about US-America nation.
I guess there are two ways to understand, now a days, what is a US-American.
First was all white settlers who came from Europe trying to find the new land of Freedom. In America you can be free, be rich, have your own faith (but Christian, please).
This understanding is a bit of racist, but is the understanding of George Washington, your founder father.

After Marthin Luther King I guess the understanding more popular is everyone who born in US soil is US-American. But what do you think about our friend Guandao who is Asiatic and born in USA, is he the same nation as yours, Sirsquier?

Also on the architecture and government. I'm sorry to state but if you want us to built or statehouses out of bark and animal hides or dung and stakes you're nuts. Would you like to have a monarchy?

?I don't understand what you mean.
A Black Monarchy should be cool, but is hard to find a great name nowadays.
Kings in Africa won't acept that, I guess.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Would you consider me simply an "American"? My parents were born in Malaysia, of Southern Chinese descent from Hainan and Fujian, immigrated to USA legally. I was born on American soil and I'm a American citizen.

Yes I do.
There is a difference between nationality and ethnicity though which I think was his point, since all those countries he mentioned were part of his ethnic background, not nationality.
I have German, Scottish, Irish, English and French in me at least. But I've never set foot in those countries, but that is besides the point because I was born in the states.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Yes I do.
There is a difference between nationality and ethnicity though which I think was his point, since all those countries he mentioned were part of his ethnic background, not nationality.
I have German, Scottish, Irish, English and French in me at least. But I've never set foot in those countries, but that is besides the point because I was born in the states.

So do you think Guandao as the same nation but different ethinicity.
You, as White-US-American have tha same ethinicity as Canadians? Australians? Argentinians? Belges and Polish?
As a Texan, your ethinicity is the same as a White guy in California or in New York?

And let's think about Latin America, how you understand Ethinicity in American Republics? Do you think about the Mix-Race person who born and live in Americas?

 

[The Civs 6]

So do you think Guandao as the same nation but different ethinicity.
You, as White-US-American have tha same ethinicity as Canadians? Australians? Argentinians? Belges and Polish?
As a Texan, your ethinicity is the same as a White guy in California or in New York?

And let's think about Latin America, how you understand Ethinicity in American Republics? Do you think about the Mix-Race person who born and live in Americas?

Yes. People who live in America are either American or undergoing the process of Americanization. The differences between me, a Californian, and this guy, a Texan, come down to political and cultural ones that fit within the common nationality that we both share.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Yes. People who live in America are either American or undergoing the process of Americanization. The differences between me, a Californian, and this guy, a Texan, come down to political and cultural ones that fit within the common nationality that we both share.

And between a white guy from Texas and other from Toronto-Canadá?

 

[The Civs 6]

And between a white guy from Texas and other from Toronto-Canadá?

It's certainly a debatable question. People outside the West often think of all the anglo saxon states (England, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, USA) as being a single entity. That we all operate with one another when it comes to national security is certainly evidence that supports this view. I tend to think that in America we are doing something a little different from everyone else, but I am open to the argument that we share enough in common that we are not meaningfully distinct.

 

[Henri Christophe]

It's certainly a debatable question. People outside the West often think of all the anglo saxon states (England, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, USA) as being a single entity. That we all operate with one another when it comes to national security is certainly evidence that supports this view. I tend to think that in America we are doing something a little different from everyone else, but I am open to the argument that we share enough in common that we are not meaningfully distinct.

And about a White Guy in Buenos Aires, who had Italian and Germany heritage.
Is he the same ethinicity as a White Guy from New York who has Italian and Germany heritage?
And I third guy from Switzerland who has Italian and German heritage is also of the same ethinicity of that Argentinian and US-American?

 

[The Civs 6]

And about a White Guy in Buenos Aires, who had Italian and Germany heritage.
Is he the same ethinicity as a White Guy from New York who has Italian and Germany heritage?
And I third guy from Switzerland who has Italian and German heritage is also of the same ethinicity of that Argentinian and US-American?

Well at that point it depends. I'd maintain that America is still pretty unique in its culture even compared to Canada or Australia. But I'm more confident in saying that these folks are a step removed from people living in the continent. That's a pretty large historical, and cultural divide. On top of the British versus continental divide, you also have the (general) protestant versus catholic divide. But all of these folks would be housed together under Christendom, probably the most generic way of looking at human civilization.

And my thought on this is premised by the reality that it probably only takes 1 or 2 generations to change your culture. IE Italians used to be a very culturally different immigrant group in the US but now the distinction between Italian, Irish or German has basically disappeared due to our shared culture. One Italian who goes to America - their grandchildren will be ethnically American. One Italian who goes to Argentina, their grandchildren will be ethnically Argentinian.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Well at that point it depends. I'd maintain that America is still pretty unique in its culture even compared to Canada or Australia.
...
And my thought on this is premised by the reality that it probably only takes 1 or 2 generations to change your culture..

I like that you said.
When someone come from farway and arrive in the land, in 1 or 2 generations he changes his culture.
That is the why I believe the United States begins 1142. When was formed the Federate States of Iroquois, the first 5 United States of America, in 1776 it become 13 States and now it is 51 States, I guess.
Ps. 1776 is also the fall of Iroquois, now a days the land of the 5 Iroquois States is the State of New York, the most important State of USA.

When the White come, in 1 or 2 generations they become American. Despites races can be different.

And something more, an ethinicity of nation can change in the history, the best example is Egypt who was black in old old kingdom and white after Alexander conquest. (Or France who will become black in next century).

 

[Browd]

Moderator Action: Let’s please drop the discussion of nationality vs. ethnicity, historical genocides, different historical forms of slavery, and and cultural bias in the study of history — all of which are worthy of civil discussion and debate ... in the World History forum, not the Ideas & Suggestions forum. So please return to the topic of the thread and discuss possible civs, leaders, uniques and other game-focused discussions.

 

[Sirsquier]

I'll create a new forum on the world history forum and link it here and yes I was homeschooled.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Moderator Action: PDMA deleted. Browd

Seminole are neither Black or Native American, they are both. And George Biassou can be a Civ Leader to both, Haiti and Seminole.

 

[Guandao]

Seminole are neither Black or Native American, they are both. And George Biassou can be a Civ Leader to both, Haiti and Seminole.

I don't think George Biassou is a suitable leader for the Seminole. His English wikipedia page says he served Spain in his final years and defended Spanish Florida against attacks from the Seminole. It would be like Flavius Aetius as the leader of the Huns.

Moderator Action: Deleted mod text in quote above. leif

 

[Henri Christophe]

I don't think George Biassou is a suitable leader for the Seminole. His English wikipedia page says he served Spain in his final years and defended Spanish Florida against attacks from the Seminole. It would be like Flavius Aetius as the leader of the Huns.

This black guy on this video said George Biassou fight against Andrew Jackson, I don't know if it is true because I don't know enought about George Biassou life already.
Yesterday I order this book about his life:
https://repeatingislands.com/2010/03/22/new-book-atlantic-creoles-in-the-age-of-revolutions/

Book description: Sailing the tide of a tumultuous era of Atlantic revolutions, a remarkable group of African-born and African-descended individuals transformed themselves from slaves into active agents of their lives and times. Big Prince Whitten, the black Seminole Abraham, and General Georges Biassou were “Atlantic creoles,” Africans who found their way to freedom by actively engaging in the most important political events of their day. These men and women of diverse ethnic backgrounds, who were fluent in multiple languages and familiar with African, American, and European cultures, migrated across the new world’s imperial boundaries in search of freedom and a safe haven. Yet, until now, their extraordinary lives and exploits have been hidden from posterity. Through prodigious archival research, Jane Landers radically alters our vision of the breadth and extent of the Age of Revolution, and our understanding of its actors. Whereas Africans in the Atlantic world are traditionally seen as destined for the slave market and plantation labor, Landers reconstructs the lives of unique individuals who managed to move purposefully through French, Spanish, and English colonies, and through Indian territory, in the unstable century between 1750 and 1850. Mobile and adaptive, they shifted allegiances and identities depending on which political leader or program offered the greatest possibility for freedom. Whether fighting for the King of Kongo, England, France, or Spain, or for the Muskogee and Seminole chiefs, their thirst for freedom helped to shape the course of the Atlantic revolutions and to enrich the history of revolutionary lives in all times.

And be aware when read Wikipedia, many things can be censured by White man.

 

[Sirsquier]

Dude seriously do as the moderator said and take it to the other forum. I get notified in emails and saw what you said (Before the moderator took it down). Just move over to the other forum and stop calling us and the game all racist. If you don't like the game and think it's racist don't play it, but stop calling us all racist.

Here you guys go.

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/historical-argument-that-was-in-the-wrong-forum.659194/.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Dude seriously do as the moderator said and take it to the other forum. I get notified in emails and saw what you said (Before the moderator took it down). Just move over to the other forum and stop calling us and the game all racist. If you don't like the game and think it's racist don't play it, but stop calling us all racist.

Sorry if I ofended you, isn't my intention, I swear.
Civilization is my favorite game, and the only game I play since 2015, I just want to see more black faces in it.
I need to admit the game is becoming better in better, but, I still think they are missing so many No-White civilizations.
Today is 2020, the Black Movement is again in the street and this game still don't have any Afro-American Civ, for example.

 

[Sirsquier]

No hard feelings. I personally love the history of America and Classical/Medieval Medaratian/Europe So I'm mostly happy with the in-game civs.