Alexander's Hetaroi
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I hope so, because that's who I want.
Blacks outside Africa
- Thread starter Henri Christophe
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Henri Christophe
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Because Cyrus and Alexander already have their own civ.
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Why not have another like Kublai and Eleanor?
Patine
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Or a separate Nubian civ?
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In short in multi cultural games like civ... no nation or culture should be over represented... and yes Henri it means "blacks" as well. For a most times a leader should represent a dominant race of a nation.
pineappledan
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I just want them to pick a leader older than Ramses II for once…
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As long as they are actually Egyptians. Then sure.
Alexander's Hetaroi
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If Piye were to get in he would probably have to be either for only Nubia, or a dual leader for both Egypt and Nubia. I don't see him coming for just Egypt. Of course, I wouldn't want him as the sole Egyptian leader either.
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Exactly!
Evie
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I find the idea of Alexandre Dumas the eldest leading France ridiculous, but the sheer nonsense of saying that's equivalent to Zheng He leading Kenya is staggering.
Alexandre Dumas the eldest was French, and a general of the French army. He founded one of the most renowned French families of the revolution and nineteenth century. He was a major inspiration of some of the most iconic figures in French literature. He in every way is part of and belongs to the history of France. He doesn't stand out enough among many other French political and military leaders to warrant being made a civ leader, but he's definitely French and a French historical figure.
Comparing his role in France with Zheng He visiting Kenya really comes off as viewing Dumas as an complete outsider to France. Which, no.
Zheng He leading *China* would be the appropriate counterexample: he was Chinese, but as a Chinese Muslim also a member of a minority within China, so a pretty good equivalent to a Black French general leading France.
Alexandre Dumas the eldest was French, and a general of the French army. He founded one of the most renowned French families of the revolution and nineteenth century. He was a major inspiration of some of the most iconic figures in French literature. He in every way is part of and belongs to the history of France. He doesn't stand out enough among many other French political and military leaders to warrant being made a civ leader, but he's definitely French and a French historical figure.
Comparing his role in France with Zheng He visiting Kenya really comes off as viewing Dumas as an complete outsider to France. Which, no.
Zheng He leading *China* would be the appropriate counterexample: he was Chinese, but as a Chinese Muslim also a member of a minority within China, so a pretty good equivalent to a Black French general leading France.
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main issue with that is Henri thinks only reason Alexandre Duma should lead France is that he was important black French General who fraught along side important leader- like Yasuke was for Japan.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
Just because he has bad ideas for the wrong reasons doesn't mean we have to follow up and come up with even worse ideas for even worse reasons.
Yasuke leads Japan was a much better comparison, of course.
Yasuke leads Japan was a much better comparison, of course.
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yeah I know I am just saying that main issue with Henri's idea isn't necessary just on the foreigners leading a civ but rather nonsense of putting "black" person in a nation that have little justification of doing so!
I for one wouldn't mind if they kept white-dominated civs like America, France and England keep having a white Anglo- Saxon leader as long as they balance it out with having African civs with black leaders.
I wouldn't want to see African leader in European nations without good justification.
Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
I agree, but we don't need to resort to examples far worse than anything Henri has said to make that point.
Alexander's Hetaroi
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My point was it seems to him is that any leader who is black doesn't have to have formally ruled that particular civ, while other groups of people do. But yeah, I can understand why Yasuke would be a better comparison, but that wasn't my intention.
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Evie
Pronounced like Eevee
I mean, you know me. I think the formal rulership req is wholly overrated, and that military, political, scientific, cultural and popular leader that were influential and significant all merit consideration.
Just in this case his influence and significance and ability to represent France is…meh. There are so many who outclass him that he’s not even the best candidate for a french leader in his own immediate family or with his own name!
Now, if you were to make the case for his *son*…well now THAT’s a figures that belongs right up there with Napoléon, Joan, Louis, Richelieu and the rest among the most influential and representative figure of French history. Even if he never had any sort of political power.
You don’t single handedly make the most beloved french UU into THE french UU with less.
Just in this case his influence and significance and ability to represent France is…meh. There are so many who outclass him that he’s not even the best candidate for a french leader in his own immediate family or with his own name!
Now, if you were to make the case for his *son*…well now THAT’s a figures that belongs right up there with Napoléon, Joan, Louis, Richelieu and the rest among the most influential and representative figure of French history. Even if he never had any sort of political power.
You don’t single handedly make the most beloved french UU into THE french UU with less.
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Henri Christophe
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Leaders older than Ramses II, and even Ramses II, could be decapited as Black since it's unknown their race and they are already decapited as white in this game.
Piye being a dual leader for Egypt and Nubia can works also, but, it isn't sure if we will have Nubia again.
And Nubia have an amazing women leader already.
Acctually he is Haitian, his father was French and noble. But he borns on Haiti of a slave women.
Dumas's son is already at the game as a great writer, I think he is where he should be. But Dumas the father was totally forgotten, he could be at least a Great General. Despite I rly think should be nice to have Dumas as leader of France. Since France is the European country of the most black population of Europe.
Yasuke would be nice to lead Japan, despite Japanese population doesn't have so many black people. Yasuke was the most important Samurai of Oda Nabunaga, he deserve to be at least a Great General.
All my suggestions of Black people outside Africa have a lot of justificationf of doing so!!!
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Like what? Tell me without using the word "black"
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Why can't they be depicted like Chinese?
Henri Christophe
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Beign black is a important factor in all of my list, some of they was enslaved and achieve a high position of Power as Toussaint L'overture, Malik Ambar and Zumbi.
But others were black but never enslaved as John Horse of Seminoles.
But first Haiti, they aren't just black, but the 2nd free country of Americas. The first to abolish slavery! In their constitution they try to abolish racism saying: "All people who borns on Haiti, dosen't matter the color of skin, are black".
Second Palmares, the greatest quilombo of South America survived almost 100 years and defeat several times the Bandeirantes of São Paulo. They had two main leaders Ganga Zumba and Zumbi, Zumbi is more well know because the date of his death (25 of novemeber) is when it's celebrated the day of racial equality.
Third Malik Ambar, was also enslaved but grow in a proeminet power and become sultan on India, very exotic history who can take attention of everyone.
4th, The Seminole lead by John Horse to show how powerfull a black people can become on Seminole society, despite other tribes of the "civilized tribes" enslave the fellow africans as the whites.
5th, Queen Nany of Jamaica was one idea giving here on this thread who I didn't know before and now I think should be great to show how the Black fought for their rights on Jamaica and have a lot of benefits under the British crown.
6th Nilo Peçanha of Brazil, being the first black president of Americas is huge, and he was very popular at his time, he has a city named after him caled Nilópolis where have one school of Samba called Beija Flor who won most of Carnavals.
7th Barack Obama, also a potential leader for a future civ when Obama was died time enought to be a civ leader.
8th 3Deer of Olmecs, The only black without African origin and should be nice to show a Olmec leader very black, even because theses theory of Olmecs being black who I like the most but unfortunnely I know it have low support.
9th, 10th Garifunas and Miskitos I don't know that much, I just put on the threat to call atention to they, if someone know something.
Because they were on Africa and propably were Black on ancient Egypt.
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