Blacks outside Africa

[Caesar of Bread]

The front-runners for Inbreeding historically were all Royal Families: Incan, Hapsburg, Polynesian, Ptolemies, etc. Keeping the "blood pure" might be a Royal Imperative, but since Genetics does not follow dynastic foibles, it never worked out well in the long run.

As to Kleopatra, please to remember that her name is traditional Macedonian (it was shared by several Macedonian Royal and semi-royal women, and of course The Cleopatra was Cleopatra the Seventh [VII]) just in her own family), along with the rest of her family. Her founding ancestor, Ptolemy Soter, was possibly a half-brother of Alexander the Great and, apparently, shared Alexander's characteristic off-blond hair and gray eyes.

There were Nubian Dynasties of Egypt if someone absolutely has to have African Leaders, but trying to convert a thoroughly genetic and cultural Macedonian to African just makes the whole thing look silly

wait, Polynesia had a royal family? or are you talking about royal families in that region?

 

[pineappledan]

The director spoke out about the criticism, and it was quite telling.

No amount of reasoning or reminders that Arab invasions had not yet happened in Cleopatra’s age seemed to stem the tide of ridiculous comments. Amir in his bedroom in Cairo wrote to me to earnestly appeal that “Cleopatra was Greek!” Oh, Lawd! Why would that be a good thing to you, Amir? You’re Egyptian.

She doesn't seem to respect or understand that people would have a desire to see their national history depicted as accurately as possible —in a documentary — even if that meant that people that don't look exactly like them should appear in it. She seems to think she is representing the history and politics of Egyptian life better than Egyptians can. Instead, she insinuates that Egyptians are disconnected from their true history (they aren't), and that Egyptians were wiped out and replaced by Arabs (they weren't). She adds a layer of mild islamophobia to cover over her ignorance.

If she was so concerned about African representation maybe she would have cast an actual African, or maybe even an Egyptian as Cleopatra, rather than a British actress.

Apparently, Netflix is being sued in Egypt over this, so they aren't taking it well.

 

[Henri Christophe]

Alexandre Dumas, however, deserves to be a Great Writer/Author.

Alexandre Dumas, the son, is already a great writer at civ 6 at least, because I remember him at the game.

Yes, but the creative license of a 21st Century Netflix showrunner doesn't magically change the fact she was well-documented, in CONTEMPORARY records to her, as being ethnically Greco-Macedonian.

I never deny Cleopatra have greek ancestry, I just think should be fine to represent she as black. Since greek people isn't white either.

There were Nubian Dynasties of Egypt if someone absolutely has to have African Leaders, but trying to convert a thoroughly genetic and cultural Macedonian to African just makes the whole thing look silly

I agree with you, a Nubian pharaoh should be way better to solve this issue, but I need to disagree with @Patine when he says there is no problem to solve. There is a big issue on the table, the most ancient civilization of world is on Africa and just have white leaders in Civilization games.

 

[Patine]

wait, Polynesia had a royal family? or are you talking about royal families in that region?

In plural.

I never deny Cleopatra have greek ancestry, I just think should be fine to represent she as black. Since greek people isn't white either.

They're considered in the European race, even by modern Anthropology. But they certainly aren't black, either. Let's get past the old three-race system made by a 19th Century racist pseudo-scientist, shall we? Using it doesn't make your arguments look good. It is no more fine to make Cleopatra black, arbitrarily, just becaise, than to make Menelik I white, for instance.

I agree with you, a Nubian pharaoh should be way better to solve this issue, but I need to disagree with @Patine when he says there is no problem to solve. There is a big issue on the table, the most ancient civilization of world is on Africa and just have white leaders in Civilization games.

No, there is no problem that needs solving. Egyptian leaders should have the racial appearance of people in that specific region which I've described, and I am opposed to BOTH Cleopatra or Puyi, or turning actual Egyptian Pharoahs white OR black in arbitrary, disingenuous portrayalls. Please, STOP misrepresenting my clearly stated view here to try to make it out like I'm saying something else you can attack. Ar we clear?

 

[Caesar of Bread]

In plural.

They're considered in the European race, even by modern Anthropology. But they certainly aren't black, either. Let's get past the old three-race system made by a 19th Century racist pseudo-scientist, shall we? Using it doesn't make your arguments look good. It is no more fine to make Cleopatra black, arbitrarily, just becaise, than to make Menelik I white, for instance.

No, there is no problem that needs solving. Egyptian leaders should have the racial appearance of people in that specific region which I've described, and I am opposed to BOTH Cleopatra or Puyi, or turning actual Egyptian Pharoahs white OR black in arbitrary, disingenuous portrayalls. Please, STOP misrepresenting my clearly stated view here to try to make it out like I'm saying something else you can attack. Ar we clear?

Thank you!

Also Puyi was the kid emperor of the Qing Dynasty. I think you mean Piye, the Nubian king of Egypt.

 

[Patine]

Thank you!

Also Puyi was the kid emperor of the Qing Dynasty. I think you mean Piye, the Nubian king of Egypt.

Yes, you're correct. My mistake. Not that Puyi would make an optimal leader for his civ, either, but for different reasons.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I never deny Cleopatra have greek ancestry, I just think should be fine to represent she as black. Since greek people isn't white either.

I'm not sure of what your definition of "white" is? Most people of European descent, at least today, are considered "white" and Greece is definitely in Europe. Whatever the case, she surely wasn't Sub-Saharan African, like this show portrays.

They're considered in the European race, even by modern Anthropology. But they certainly aren't black, either. Let's get past the old three-race system made by a 19th Century racist pseudo-scientist, shall we? Using it doesn't make your arguments look good. It is no more fine to make Cleopatra black, arbitrarily, just becaise, than to make Menelik I white, for instance.

Well by Henri's standards Menelik could be white, considering he was supposedly descended from Solomon.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

, I just think should be fine to represent she as black. Since greek people isn't white either

WTF?
I... am loss for words. What is next Irish people isn't white?

 

[Evie]

Racial classifications are a complex and messy area or arbitrary and evolving definitions, many of which were much more narrow than the familiar simple broad definitions. In a lot of them, Mediterraneans people were in fact not considered White, excluding the Greeks on both counts.

I do believe some of them (which equated white with northern european/germanic) would also, in fact, have excluded the Irish.

Of course, that didn't make any of them anywhere even remotely black. Henri's not wrong, the point is just not relevant to his case.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

WTF?
I... am loss for words. What is next Irish people isn't white?

Of course Kupe Navigator. You had to learn the truth somehow. (Just joking with you)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

wait, Polynesia had a royal family? or are you talking about royal families in that region?

Virtually every separate island group had its own 'Royal' family, and many of them practiced the 'Pure Blood' system of intermarrying only within the family.
The Hawaiian royalty, specifically as I remember, also practiced infanticide to keep out the worst results of the in-breeding, but of course that didn't begin to catch all the problems . . .

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Racial classifications are a complex and messy area or arbitrary and evolving definitions, many of which were much more narrow than the familiar simple broad definitions. In a lot of them, Mediterraneans people were in fact not considered White, excluding the Greeks on both counts.

I do believe some of them (which equated white with northern european/germanic) would also, in fact, have excluded the Irish.

Of course, that didn't make any of them anywhere even remotely black. Henri's not wrong, the point is just not relevant to his case.

Yes, technically laws going back to the early U.S. did exclude certain European groups from being classified as white, such as the Italians and the Irish. That's what you get when you have a country founded by predominantly Protestant/British values, I guess.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Racial classifications are a complex and messy area or arbitrary and evolving definitions, many of which were much more narrow than the familiar simple broad definitions. In a lot of them, Mediterraneans people were in fact not considered White, excluding the Greeks on both counts.

I do believe some of them (which equated white with northern european/germanic) would also, in fact, have excluded the Irish.

Of course, that didn't make any of them anywhere even remotely black. Henri's not wrong, the point is just not relevant to his case.

It was silly to consider Irish/Greeks non-white then and it is stupid now.

 

[Patine]

It was silly to consider Irish/Greeks non-white then and it is stupid now.

There were certain firebrand advocates of Slave Power in the U.S. in the 1840's and 1850's who declared political Abolitionists, "forefeited their Whiteness," with such a stance, I kid you not. But we are diverging from the topic - even the specific issue of the race of Egyptian rulers.

 

[Henri Christophe]

But we are diverging from the topic

Diverging from the main topic a little more, yesterday I found something astonish!!!
There are Egyptians Hieroglyphs on Australia!!

There are between the cities of Gosfrod and Woy Woy in New South Wales.
I saw that in a documentary about Egyptians who talk about Egyptians being the first civilization to circonavigate the world (!)
Acctually Herotodo speak about Phonecians going around the Africa, but cross the Atlantic sea I tought was too much, but then have theses Hieroglyphs on Australia... How is it possible?

 

[Patine]

Diverging from the main topic a little more, yesterday I found something astonish!!!
There are Egyptians Hieroglyphs on Australia!!

There are between the cities of Gosfrod and Woy Woy in New South Wales.
I saw that in a documentary about Egyptians who talk about Egyptians being the first civilization to circonavigate the world (!)
Acctually Herotodo speak about Phonecians going around the Africa, but cross the Atlantic sea I tought was too much, but then have theses Hieroglyphs on Australia... How is it possible?

I'm dubious of the authenticity of this.

 

[Evie]

Kupe: All racial distinctions were and still are silly and stupid, but they happened, they shaped history, they have deep impacts that cannot be ignored on the groups who were on the losing end of those distinctions to this day, and you don't get to pretend the ones you find more reasonable (which are still silly and stupid) are more real than the ones you don't find reasonable (also silly and stupid).

And Henri, the Wiki article you posted points out in nearly every paragraph the overwhelming evidence that these were carved in the 20th century, such as the fact that they used hieroglyps that were never used in the same era, the fact that the "egyptian" hieroglyps are (way) less eroded than 250 years old Egyptian glyphs, that the stone-carving technique used is not an Egyptian one...

They're fake.

 

[Caesar of Bread]

Diverging from the main topic a little more, yesterday I found something astonish!!!
There are Egyptians Hieroglyphs on Australia!!

There are between the cities of Gosfrod and Woy Woy in New South Wales.
I saw that in a documentary about Egyptians who talk about Egyptians being the first civilization to circonavigate the world (!)
Acctually Herotodo speak about Phonecians going around the Africa, but cross the Atlantic sea I tought was too much, but then have theses Hieroglyphs on Australia... How is it possible?

How in Sam Hill?
Herodotus is the only source that backs your argument, and even then, his words may be wrong about Necho II and Hanno the Navigator.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Kupe: All racial distinctions were and still are silly and stupid, but they happened, they shaped history, they have deep impacts that cannot be ignored on the groups who were on the losing end of those distinctions to this day, and you don't get to pretend the ones you find more reasonable (which are still silly and stupid) are more real than the ones you don't find reasonable (also silly and stupid).

I don't know... culturally and historically I don't see myself ( Asian- New Zealander) close to someone from Egypt. However I do see myself closer someone from China/Japan than someone from Egypt or Anglo-Saxon american.

 

[FishFishFish]

The idea that a person is "White" or "Asian" or "Black" is a social construct, because those categories are made up by people, and what counts as "white" varies from culture to culture, and from person to person. The idea of dividing humanity into sub-groups based on ethnic origin is a social construct, something that humans invented. The idea that certain humans whose ancestors came from specific regions are going to have minor genetic differences is true, but how we divide people up into groups is based on social norms and ideas.