blid02 - The farmers shuttle

Did you look at the latest save, Kanga_DU? Over the last turnset Asoka acquired Machinery and Feudalism, although he doesn't appear to have upgraded all his Archers yet. Meanwhile, Cyrus continued to build units whereas we built none. On top of that we're in Caste System and Decentralization (and Bureaucracy) rather than Slavery and Mercantilism (and Vassalage). So I'm pretty "meh" about it now. I'll probably play very soon now but in case anyone checks in, please do post... I'll be checking.

Looking again I do believe you're right GreyFox, the tech tree screen doesn't ever tell you when a freebie is gone. Good catch.
 
A mellow, relaxing turnset. War seemed like a bad idea, and Hannibal and Cyrus were both Friendly anyway. So I just kicked back, deleted our most ancient units, and built buildings and missionaries while micromanaging excessively. I think I'll try listing all the builds at the end of the narrative this time.

1160 AD (turn 0):

* we're one turn from a great person in Moscow. I fire all the scientists and hire two priests, just in case we can pop a prophet. Worst case we'll get two great prophets. If we don't get a prophet I'll fire the priests and rehire all the scientists.
* I adjust the managers to favor growth a little more. The idea is to grow all cities to their happy cap now and then hire specialists when we have Representation. I leave the priests in Delhi, and a couple scientists in places where maximum growth isn't the right thing.
* Renegotiate Sugar to Cyrus from 5GPT up to 9GPT.

1166 (turn 1):

blid02-4-1.JPG


blid02-4-2.JPG


I put Pasteur to sleep. Maybe he can do something with those cows we have next door. I fire the priests in Moscow and hire 2 scientists, the maximum number possible such that Delhi will still pop the next great person. Fortunately, because of Bureaucracy the coast tiles are competitive with scientists.

1172 (turn 2)

* Ragnar adopts Mercantilism and we lose a little trade route income.
* Sell cow to HC for 11 GPT.
* Sell another cow to Ragnar for 4 GPT.

1178 (turn 3)

* Nogvorod is at its happy cap. I put it on max production.
* Bombay is at its happy cap. I hire a bunch of scientists.

1184 (turn 4)

blid02-4-3.JPG


Hannibal has learned Gunpowder.

1190 (turn 5)

* HC completes Sankore.
* Moscow is at its happy cap and has too much food, at least while we're micromanaging Delhi to pop the next great person. So I give Moscow's cows to Yekaterinburg.
* It's not really important, but I check out Karachi with a Caravel. At the momet it has an Archer, a Longbow, and a Galley.

1226 (turn 11)

blid02-4-4.JPG


* Learning Nationalism reveals that HC has Military Tradition. Interesting.
* HC declines to give us his 330. I am tempted to ask for Cyrus's 240 and Hannibal's 250 but we didn't beg that long ago and I don't know if there's a penalty for asking. Does anyone know? HC also encouraged us to stop trading with his bitter enemy - Asoka! He must have been referring to an earlier tech trade.
* I realize that - duh - it's Constitution rather than Nationalism that enables Representation, and so I fiddle around with the city managers, hiring more scientists and such so that Constitution is 15 turns away instead of 20. The cities that have spare happy are still growing, just not as fast.

1232 (turn 12)

blid02-4-5.JPG


1244 (turn 14)

blid02-4-6.JPG


Large shot of the farm in 1250 (turn 15):
Spoiler :
blid02-4-7.JPG


Deletions, all in the first few turns: 3 Warriors, 2 Chariots, 1 3XP Swordsman, and our 1 Axe (7XP), saving 14 GPT.

Builds:
* Moscow: Observatory, Taoist Monastery, Bank (6 left)
* Yekaterinburg: Courthouse, finished Galleon, Library (2 left...)
* Yaroslavl: Lighthouse, Harbor, University (16)
* St Petersburg: Courthouse, Observatory (17)
* Novgorod: Courthouse, Stable, Theater, Hindu Temple, Market (10)
* Bombay: Observatory (5)
* Bangalore: Hindu Missionary, Courthouse, Forbidden Palace (11)
* Delhi: Courthouse, University, Bank (17)
* Rostov: Harbor, Lighthouse, 4 Hindu Missionaries, Hindu Missionary (1)

I put Courthouses in front of the zero-hammer Market builds because in the short term Courthouses would have the same effect, and were a little cheaper, and they enabled the Forbidden Palace.

I added the Harbors because Cyrus doesn't even have Guilds yet, and so even though I think we'll be in Mercantilism hell for a while, we're still getting some good trade routes from him. Plus we're Expansive, so they're cheap.

Novgorod I didn't really think through. After the Stable I was ready to start on Knights, and indeed Novgorod should build mainly units. However, especially since we're in Pacifism, I thought maybe it should first build some happy buildings so that it can grow and work as many tiles as possible, so that it can build yet more units. The question was, when would we fight next and when must we start the buildup. I took a guess and worked on the happy buildings. The Market is primarily for the happy (+1 Fur, +1 Silk, +1 Ivory if we trade for HC's.)

I put a University in Delhi because even though it will probably be running Merchants, it still will be a good science city, and we needed one more University for Oxford. I moved Niels Bohr to Delhi and was very tempted to build an Academy in Delhi for the same reasons, but since Printing Press and Scientific Method are on the way to Biology, I left him alone.

Most of the missionaries succeeded. I started by passing on Hippo in order to leave it weak and culturally beleagured, and because we already have visibility into it. Instead I did Thapsus, in Hannibal's core. Then I felt we were reasonably safe from Hannibal or Cyrus flipping religions, so I finished our own cities, especially to prepare for Organized Religion later if we wish. The last missionary I sent to Persia - might as well finish the continent as well as get some additional visibility into Persia.

Notes and stuff

Keep an eye on Moscow and Delhi, they're micromanaged for a prophet (hopefully) from Delhi.

Our caravels are out exploring the nooks and crannies. There's not much to see and they're not doing anything important.

National Wonders:
* I'm open to cancelling FP in Bangalore. I just figured it was better to get it built, but we could build it elsewhere, or wait.
* Novgorod, I don't know if we'll get around to West Point but it seems like we should leave the slot open.
* I'd vote for Ironworks in Bangalore rather than Novgorod so that we can keep up a stream of units.
* We're ready for Oxford. Delhi is possible but I guess Moscow is best, especially if we give it back its cows and bananas and farm its forests. Yaroslavl can make do without the bananas now. (Sniff... our little Marble city is all grown up.)
* Should we build the Globe Theater in Delhi? No need to worry about it for a little while, I suppose...

When can switch to Representation I suggest also switching to Mercantilism and OR. We could do Vassalage (or Theocracy) if we wanted a military buildup, but Bureaucracy would complement Oxford in Moscow. Switching out of Pacifism seems like it would complement diminishing returns from GPP and also enable a military buildup.

After Constituation it seems like we want either Democracy, Biology, or Gunpowder+MT. If HC doesn't already have Democracy, we might be able to get a head start on the Statue of Liberty, and we do have Copper. The thing about Biology is that at the moment we don't have the happy for a lot more pop. We could get more happy from some combination of buildings, the slider, Free Religion, and Nationalism. But we'd still be behind in Demographics. So it seems to me that we should do the military thing, building up Knights for upgrading to Cossacks, along with Trebs for support. Then we could for example take Carthage/Utica/Thapsus and vassalize the rest of Carthage, and then wipe out Asoka while defending against Cyrus. Just the gold (from Asoka) and the silver (from Hannibal) would give us 4 free happy. We could get sheep too, and maybe pigs. I don't feel strongly about it, but in broad strokes preparing to take more land with Cossacks seems like a good idea.

By the way, Nationalism to Hannibal for Gunpowder+misc might not be a bad idea. Elizabeth lacks it, but Hannibal and she are mutually annoyed and don't seem to have trade relations. At the moment she doesn't have any techs Hannibal would want anyway. And Hannibal is way ahead of Cyrus, for some reason.
 
Nice builder turnset and writeup Jet :thumbsup:

Poor Lizzie, she doesn't understand she's not wanted

I am in favour for starting the military buildup too (crossing fingers hard for a prophet). Cossacks + trebs would be great against Asoka. But I don't want to alienate the whole continent :eek: We want trade partners and friendly partners are reliable ones with whom you can trade beyond the WFYABTA. Maybe even space techs though I'm not sure about that. Really I don't think going after Hannibal is wise

For the begging thing, the only possible downside I heard about is that you reinitialize some kind of counter and so if you keep asking every turn you'll never get anything. This is just assumption though

I like that trade with Hannibal you mentioned

I see I am UP. I will probably play tomorrow
 
IHT : traded for gunpowder with Hannibal. He took nationalism and gave us some money and a world map.
We now can run 100% research for 3 turns. Constitution down to 7. Maybe I'll get some money later from Cyrus.

Oooh, Bombay is a monster city with 5 scientists and still growing. Since it is at its happy cap, I switch from a farm to workshop. Yaro is diverted from a uni to a taoist missionary for Delhi. If this city can hire 6 priests then by all means it should do it. Going mad about shrine economy ? Don't understand what makes you think that

Turn 1 : Rostov starts a stable for some mounted units to come

Turn 2 : start Oxford in the capital. Yeka starts a barracks. Seems like a nice city for military production with all the hills. HC has spare ivory. He asks for 2 resources to give it away. No thank you

Turn 3 :
spread hinduism in Ecabatan (persian)

Turn 4 :
Bombay finishes observatory and starts a jewish monastery. Scientific method is not that far away

And we got it : Zoroaster. Cyrus is so jealous about that

blid02-01.jpg



We do a nice -4 at 70% now. I realize we have a farmed sugar at Delhi and send a worker there. The priests are fired for the moment. We need to grow here and finish that bank.
In Moscow, next great person is due in 3 turns. I fire one scientist and hire a couple priests. Just in case...
They also help accelerate oxford, remember we have angkor wat

Turn 5 :
Persepolis is hindu.
Realize Moscow cows were lent to yeka and get them back to hire back the third scientist
HC has astronomy now. He used it to trade for gunpowder.
Hannibal has printing press to trade but won't give it for astronomy. He is clearly researching it. So I give him both astro and liberlalism to get printing press and theology and some money. I know this is robbery but it's better than letting the chance of trade go past us to Huayna

Turn 6 :
Huayna offers us some gold for liberalism. He must be a turn from completing it since he won't offer all his gold. He is already in WFYABTA. I accept his proposition. Increase science slider, now constitution in 1 turn.

Turn 7:
Rostov finishes stable. Starts a knight
Yeka finishes a barracks ands starts a treb

We have a third scientist. He is put to sleep. I start researching scientific method. I think we should research it manually and use the scientists later to pop physics and electricty, just to make the great library last as long as possible.

Revolution baby

Turn 8 :
It is representation time. We get some unhappiness in Bangalore which was relying on military police for happiness.
Means we need to hire some scientists here right ?

Turn 9 :
Missionary done in Yaro.
Delhi at happiness cap. I hire 5 priests realizing that with the shrine and Angkor Wat, we can get 6 priests running. That yaro missionary should find another place to go then

Turn 10 :
Novgorod market is finally done. Start a knight
Forbidden palace done in Bangalore. Starts a market for the happy. Judaism spread there too
We are in the green at 70% and are generating 435 beakers

Turn 11 :
Lizzie offers open borders. Thought Jet already explained the situaion to her
Bombay finishes monastery and starts jewish missionary.

Hannibal is down to pleased, we have some border problems. It would be great to have him join us in a war against Cyrus.

Turn 12 :
HC demanded sugar as tribute. Sure my friend. Your wishes are orders. He is now pleased.
I asked for 150 gold but he refused
Novgorod : knight->knight

Turn 13 :
StPet : observatory->hindu missionary. We can keep this city and/or Rostov as our main providers of missionaries.
Delhi finishes a bank and starts a market. We are loosing 6 gpt at 80% and generating 507 beakers.
Huayna competes Versailles.

Turn 14 :
Rostov : knight->knight
Yeka : treb->treb

Turn 15 :
Novgorod : knight->treb
Bombay : great scientist in 5 turns. Then it's probably Moscow turn with either a scientist, prophet or an unlucky artist. We should be able to make Delhi give the third great person and then can put it on merchants duty

Three cities are building military : Novgorod, Rostov and Yekaterniburg. Bangalore can join in once its market is in (this city is unhappy)
We need to make relations with Hannibal back to friendly again. This guy preferred civic is free trade, so we should be fine once we can get economics. We would probably be running it for the rest of the game. And like I said earlier, with some MMS, we would be completely safe.

Scientific method is due in 2 turns and we have 3 scientists (4 in 5 turns). We can pop physics with three scientists then we'll have 2 scientists to get a head start on electricity

Cyrus power graph is something. Hannibal is frightened of their military might now. This won't be a piece of cake guys but with good tactics, we shall prevail. Watch for a military tradition trade

Kanga_DU is UP

save
 
IHT: Not much to see, just try to re-familiarise to the game. Looks like HC and Rags have a defensive pact.

T1: Oil! Not in any BFCs however and just the one. Use 2 scientists on Physics, whilst starting Democracy (11). (Missed where number 3 was and ended up waiting a few turns for the next one).



T2: Look who back.


No, no, NO!

T3: Oxford finished @ Moscow

T4: Next great scientist born in Bombay, used on Physics (1 turn to finish). Peeking at HC, he's got rifles. No trades open (except with Miss Whiney). Cancelled a sugar for 9gpt to Cyrus to up the gpt, only to find he has 1 gpt free after. :lol: Probably upped his research rate. he is lagging after all. Spread Judaism to Moscow.

T5: With Physics done, back to Democracy. I'd really like to see us score the Statue. We have uranium, @ Yekat, and at the ? site. Spare GS bulbs Chemistry, so I opt to build an academy in Bombay. Still a spare GS (check Moscow IIRC).

I think Jet summarised it best:



Blah, blah, ditty blah...

T6: First ship load of missionaries is off to the Vikings. Probably won't get a religion switch (all Rags' cities are buddhist), but might get him to go free religion perhaps.

T8: Shop our world map around to our trading partners for whatever change I can beg off 'em. We can afford 80% research for another 9 turns or so that way. Shots of the cheapskate in action:



ARGH! At this point the penny dropped. Rags is a vassal of HC. The log says in 1352 so nicely missed by me. Probably not a biggie, just annoying I missed the bleedin' obvious.

T9: Set Delhi to a Hindu mandir (for the +3 happy and extra priest option and bonus extra culture won't hurt there).

T10: Three viking cities accept Hinduism, including their capital.

T11: Democracy researched. Still no trades open (with trading partners that is). Well we'll just have to self research it. Military Tradition is started. 6 turns at 80 or 70 research, so I build a little cash. Upgrades maybe? Moscow starts that Statue.

T12: Hannibal finally will trade Replacable Parts, but only for Sci Method. Nope, not good enough in my books.

T13: Asoka wants open borders. Is sent packing. Now the sweet news.

Asoka renounces the protection of Cyrus.

:goodjob: Death warrant signed I'd say.

Finally retrade sugar to Cyrus for 11 gpt.

T14: Reneg sugar to Hannibal for 7 (from 5) gpt.

T15: More missionaries are on the way to Ragnar (goto is on!)

So we are nicely positioned to take out Asoka once and for all, I built a mix of troops (mostly trebs) and happy buildings.


Buena suerte Bede

Its true some people can't sleep:
Spoiler :

Logging by Ruff's Cobbled Mod Pack v2.0.4 (Warlords v2.08) - New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 281/660 (1346 AD) [07-Feb-2007 18:20:04]
Novgorod grows: 17
Novgorod finishes: Trebuchet
Rostov grows: 13

IBT:

Turn 282/660 (1352 AD) [07-Feb-2007 18:40:36]
Novgorod begins: Trebuchet (3 turns)
A Farm was built near Delhi
A Farm was built near Yaroslavl'
Tech learned: Scientific Method

IBT:
Team 5 becomes a Vassal State of Team 2
Research begun: Democracy (11 Turns)
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards Huayna Capac(Inca), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Turn 283/660 (1358 AD) [07-Feb-2007 18:45:02]
Research begun: Physics (16 Turns)
Research begun: Democracy (11 Turns)
Research begun: Physics (11 Turns)
Research begun: Democracy (11 Turns)
St. Petersburg finishes: Hindu Missionary
Novgorod finishes: Trebuchet

IBT:

Turn 284/660 (1364 AD) [07-Feb-2007 18:49:51]
St. Petersburg begins: Theatre (6 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Hindu Missionary (5 turns)
Novgorod begins: Hindu Missionary (2 turns)
A Farm was built near St. Petersburg
Moscow finishes: Oxford University
Bombay finishes: Jewish Missionary

IBT:
Attitude Change: Hannibal(Carthage) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Civics Change: Ragnar(Vikings) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Decentralization'

Turn 285/660 (1370 AD) [07-Feb-2007 18:52:43]
Moscow begins: Stable (3 turns)
Novgorod begins: Grocer (8 turns)
Bombay begins: Jewish Missionary (9 turns)
Research begun: Physics (6 Turns)
Research begun: Democracy (8 Turns)
A Workshop was built near Yaroslavl'
Novgorod finishes: Hindu Missionary
Rostov finishes: Knight
Al-Razi (Scientist) (Great Scientist) born in Bombay
Yekaterinburg finishes: Trebuchet

IBT:

Turn 286/660 (1376 AD) [07-Feb-2007 18:57:39]
Rostov begins: Trebuchet (6 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Theatre (4 turns)
Research begun: Physics (1 Turns)
Research begun: Democracy (1 Turns)
Judaism has spread: Moscow
Tech learned: Physics
Mikhail Lomonosov (Scientist) (Great Scientist) born in Moscow
Moscow finishes: Stable
St. Petersburg grows: 15
Yaroslavl' grows: 11

IBT:

Turn 287/660 (1382 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:08:40]
Moscow begins: Market (6 turns)
Research begun: Chemistry (7 Turns)
Research begun: Democracy (7 Turns)
Bombay finishes: Academy
St. Petersburg finishes: Hindu Missionary
Bangalore finishes: Market

IBT:

Turn 288/660 (1388 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:15:27]
St. Petersburg begins: Theatre (5 turns)
Bangalore begins: Theatre (4 turns)
Research begun: Chemistry (6 Turns)
Research begun: Democracy (5 Turns)
Yaroslavl' finishes: University

IBT:

Turn 289/660 (1394 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:26:06]
Yaroslavl' begins: Theatre (10 turns)
Yekaterinburg finishes: Theatre

IBT:
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Asoka(India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Huayna Capac(Inca) towards Cyrus(Persia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 290/660 (1400 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:28:24]
Yekaterinburg begins: Stable (5 turns)
A Workshop was built near Yaroslavl'
Rostov finishes: Trebuchet
Delhi finishes: Market

IBT:

Turn 291/660 (1406 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:37:30]
Rostov begins: Trebuchet (6 turns)
Delhi begins: Hindu Mandir (13 turns)
Bangalore finishes: Theatre

IBT:

Turn 292/660 (1412 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:41:03]
Bangalore begins: Barracks (4 turns)
Hinduism has spread: Nidaros (Viking Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Birka (Viking Empire)
Hinduism has spread: Haithabu (Viking Empire)
Tech learned: Democracy
Moscow grows: 18
Moscow finishes: Market
St. Petersburg finishes: Theatre
Bombay finishes: Jewish Missionary
Bangalore grows: 13

IBT:

Turn 293/660 (1418 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:44:38]
Research begun: Military Tradition (6 Turns)
Moscow begins: The Statue of Liberty (38 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Stable (6 turns)
Bombay begins: Hindu Temple (12 turns)
Rostov begins: Hindu Missionary (3 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Hindu Missionary (4 turns)
Novgorod finishes: Grocer

IBT:
Civics Change: Asoka(India) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Decentralization'

Turn 294/660 (1424 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:49:46]
Novgorod begins: Trebuchet (3 turns)
A Mine was built near Rostov
A Workshop was built near Novgorod
Bangalore finishes: Barracks
Yekaterinburg finishes: Stable

IBT:

Turn 295/660 (1430 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:52:08]
Bangalore begins: Stable (5 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Knight (7 turns)
Novgorod grows: 18
Novgorod finishes: Trebuchet
Rostov finishes: Hindu Missionary
Yaroslavl' grows: 12

IBT:
Team 1 revolts and is no longer a Vassal State of Team 6

Turn 296/660 (1436 AD) [07-Feb-2007 19:55:13]
Novgorod begins: Trebuchet (3 turns)
St. Petersburg finishes: Hindu Missionary

IBT:

Turn 297/660 (1442 AD) [07-Feb-2007 20:00:38]
St. Petersburg begins: Hindu Missionary (4 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Settler (9 turns)
Rostov begins: Hindu Missionary (3 turns)
St. Petersburg begins: Hindu Missionary (4 turns)
A Mine was built
Novgorod finishes: Trebuchet
Yaroslavl' finishes: Theatre

IBT:

Turn 298/660 (1448 AD) [07-Feb-2007 20:05:55]
Novgorod begins: Knight (3 turns)
Yaroslavl' begins: Barracks (7 turns)
 
Oh goody, indigo silk jammies and bling.

Got it
 
Looks like some good tech trades are available -
Cyrus: Chemistry for Banking+Nationalism+80. That would open a Biology lightbulb.
Hannibal: Replacable for Sci Meth.
Elizabeth: Economics+640 for Sci Meth.

What do you all think of using Elizabeth for some judicious tech trades? HC is in WFYABTA. That will wear off and he's Pleased, but with a different religion and no favorite civic, he'll never get to Friendly. The 640 would be helpful right now. We should do some Sword->Mace and Knight->Cossack upgrades and they cost about 150 each.

Anyone up for attacking Carthage after India, when we're ready? I think we need more land to win.
 
Hmmm, trading with Lizzie may be a good idea. Depens if she is Ragnar worst enemy too, or is it asoka ? We just need to make sure we trade only for techs we need or when it's clear we are missing an opportunity. HC and Lizzie would clearly be our oppoenent for the space race. I just imagine the hell it could have been if they shared the same religion. I think we should not export hinduism to England, that would encourage her to go free religion

Concerning the war with Carthage, I'm not convinced but I guess things would be clearer once the indian campaign is settled
 
Keep those ideas coming. Will play tomorrow night. Got sidetracked by work.
 
Turn 299/660 (1448 AD) [09-Feb-2007 19:16:01]
Picked up Economics and Chemistry

Civ4ScreenShot0001-2.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0002-2.jpg


but held off on making any deals with Hannibal as I could bribe him into war with Asoka, thus cementing our relationship and covering our backside.

Then with grenadiers and Cossacks in the proper places hired Hannibal

Civ4ScreenShot0003-2.jpg


and aimed the forces into India

Civ4ScreenShot0004-3.jpg


Civ4ScreenShot0005-3.jpg


The war was a walk in the park with the first round scored 5-0 in our favor and the capture of Kohlapur.

Lahore was a little tougher and cost a grenadier and two maces but the outcome was inevitable

Civ4ScreenShot0007-2.jpg


After that it was cleanup, marching Cossacks at the remaining Indian towns on the mainland.

Burned the two scientists on Biology and started on Steam Power.


Signed a peace deal with Asoka in 1517 as I didn;t want to build a navy to atttack Karachi. Maybe sometime in the far future Hannibal will build a boat and capture the town.


From there on out it was managing the Empire and spreading some more religion as the next Great due in is a prophet from Delhi.

A civics change is the near future as with the spread of Economics Free Markets are implemented in most of the nations, and we could always use the extra income. And it may be time to shift the production of Greats from Science and Prophets to Merchants. The last lightbulb only netted 2682 beakers per scientist and a Merchant trade mission would be worth >3000 coins to spend any way we want.

Dropped a town on the Question mark to take advantage of those hills and the uranium mine and the horse pasture.

Rifles are out there for the buying if we want them

Civ4ScreenShot0012-2.jpg


and Emancipation is starting to cause some unhappiness among the populace.

The next thing to consider is it may be time to thaw the Cold war with Lizzie. She has several resources we could use (health and happy) and she is now big enough that she is starting to gain some influence with our near neighbors. Capac still hates her, but he is not much of a bosom pal for us right now. He has no resources to offer and is still in WFYABTA mode on technology while Liz is more than happy to trade with us. As she is now out of Mercantilism at least Open borders and some harbors in the coastal towns will be a big boost to the income streams.

The Statue is coming along right fine, and no one birthed an Engineer to take it from under our noses.
 
Nice turns bede, that was a blitz. Were there serious WW problems with the indian campaign ? I would not have signed peace, the MMS with Hannibal alone is worth keeping the war

I think we should concentrate on research now and choose techs wisely. We don't have any tech above Huayna and he has 4 techs we don't. Glad those are widely known. We really need to get more trade partners by getting Hannibal to friendly and hope we can do the same with Ragnar

If we can afford to give a tech to Ragnar, we should ask him to convert to hinduism. He has hinduism in all his cities, so he may stay there if he converts. I can't believe he is so advanced with his measly empire. That would also up the fair trade modifier to +4

My thinking is we should aim for the quickest path to computers and our Unique Building. IMO, electricity->radio should be our next techs and hopefully we'll get some trade value out of them. Once computers is in, we should not be very far from robotics and the elevator depending on what techs we can trade for

Another important point, if we have a chance to start a war on the other continent, then by all means. What do you think about going free religion to have better relations with HC and Lizzie and see if there's a chance of a bribery ? We need though to stay at pacifism until we pop that prophet in Delhi

Concerning scientists vs merchants, we must have in mind the modifiers bulidings. I think we have more cities with libs/unis/obs combos than ones with market/grocer/bank. Cities with nothing useful to build should build research

Concerning a new war with Hannibal, I fear we'd loose tech ground with the other continent. Do we still have time to declare on him, get enough lands and resources to compensate for the war efforts ? We should keep in mind the potential trades we'd be missing if we declare.

Globally, I think we are in an important phase of the game and woule like to hear opinions on the directions we should take from the team

Roster :

* blid
* KANGA_DU
* bede : Just played
* Sooooo : UP
* GreyFox : On deck
* Jet
 
Looked at the save. The last time I played this game we had just started attacking Asoka and were researching Metal Casting. Now we're on to steam power!

My thoughts are that we should attack Hannibal. He is weak and has about 4 good cities we can take. When the statue of liberty is done I think we revolt to nationalism/mercantilism/slavery/free religion. Mercantilism will help us more than free market and slow down our opponents methinks. Staying in Hinduism is not-so-good, because we only get benefit with Cyrus who has nothing to trade for anyway. Tech-wise I think we should go for steel after steam power - good trade material. Also I want to trade for rifling from Elizabeth and sell her bananas for 19 gpt. The statue can be sped up by taking over a workshop, and those forests at Moscow should really have been lumbermilled by now. Instead we have 7 (!) workers building an unirrigated farm at Nubian, the other end of the empire. EDIT: and we are working waaaay too many mines. Half of those miners should be scientists IMO.
 
I think we can take Hannibal without great immediate cost. Starting with the units we have now and backing it up with a round of Rifleman drafting and a stream of Cossacks from Novgorod ought to do it. We'd get at least 3 good cities (maybe 200 beakers per turn) and the +2 happy from his Silver. Right now we're #1 in land but I doubt our margin is great enough to beat cottages on Monarch. I'd be happy if we attacked Carthage. In that case I'd stay in Caste System rather than go Slavery; I think Nationalism would be enough.

In spite of myself, I'm thinking it would be more interesting to see what we can do purely with our no-cottage economy combined with diplomacy for good trading. In that case we'd want to adopt Free Market to get Hannibal to Friendly, and maybe do a Defensive Pact. He's teching pretty well, so I think at Friendly he'd be good for a number of additional tech trades. Free Market would leverage the high population that we need to run a lot of specialists. I wonder if it's possible to get his Silver another way, sabotaging it and then getting the trade on the rebound.

I do think we should finish India right away if it's possible. That would eliminate motherland whining and taking their Sheep and Crabs.

For war between HC and Elizabeth, we probably have a better chance of convincing Elizabeth, since her favorite civic is Free Religion. But she's not very friendly: right now we're at +5 / -5, minus another 2 for heathen. On top of that I'm pessimistic about much a war would hurt them. They already have large, equally-matched armies and resilient empires, so I envision them just burning through their units and pillaging each other without losing much beyond some improvements and the hammers for some replacement units. I don't have a strong sense of it, though. So, I do think we should trade with Elizabeth without worrying about how HC feels about it, but I'm not sure that cozying up with Free Religion would do much for us diplomatically. Speaking of which, I noticed she'll give us Wine, Spices, Sheep, plus 19 GPT for one of our spare Irons. That would be smashing!

I can't understand why Cyrus is so far behind, but we could try giving him techs. In that case we'd want to stay Hindu and ironically avoid spreading Hinduism to any more of his cities, to discourage Free Religion. It would be interesting to see if by gifting him some techs we can get him to catch up enough to be a useful source of backfills (at Friendly). If we stay Hindu, I think OR is probably better than Pacifism at this point (similar cost, better benefit).

I'd be up for trying to convert Ragnar, but it would have to be for Democracy, which would increase Emancipation annoyance. Also, with two religions in every city I'm surprised Ragnar hasn't gone Free Religion already. Furthermore, what if he came right out of "don't like you enough" and into "fear you are becoming too advanced"? Whether we make the trade or not I think we should stay in Caste System for as long as we can, using buildings and the slider as necessary.
 
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