blid02 - The farmers shuttle

[blid]

There is a whipped library in Delhi. I would have preferred a temple here. In this city at least, let's try to have a clean GP pool. Pure prophets.

I switched Yaro from library to taoist monastery. We don't have any and Moscow is busy with national epic

After we got compass, I used the couple geeks to lightbulb machinery and optics. I traded for code of laws and Hereditary rule+180 gold using compass and started researching civil service. Spreading irrigation is important for our variant so I think it is more useful for us than astronomy now.

Heroic epic is done and Novgorod is working on a forge.

I spread hinduism in Moscow. IMO 50% points in Moscow is worth the points we loose in Rostov. By the end of my turnset, national epic is 3 turns from completion

Delhi finished a hindu temple after the library. I hired a priest and started Angkor Wat. If we can get this wonder, we would have no trouble getting as many shrines as we want. We should be careful with trading philosophy away.

The once trireme has met us 2 new faces : Lizzy, the confucian founder and Huayna the buddhist founder. They are neighbours and no need to say that they are not the best friends of the world.

Lizzy offered construction+40 gold for compass. Hannibal offered the same for machinery. I refused both offers.

Asoka offered 60 gold for hereditary rule. You must be kidding me and bad for you I'm not in the mood. I checked and saw he had 160 gold. For retribution I demanded all his money and he obliged. Maybe he would stop bothering us with his nonsense.

Delhi grew into unhapiness since I went from +2 to +3 yearn to join mother land penalty. Probably since we went over some built in population cap. Guess it was time to switch to HR. With 5 units inside, we have some time before it goes unhappy again.

Civil service is due in 3 turns. Those workers are chopping jungle, preparing for an irrigation chain up to Bombay.

Here's the tech situation :

Lizzie and Huayna are both above us in points. I guess they had plenty of land to expand. No one of them has compass. I didn't trade with any of them. We need to choose a side and we better assess the situation more before that. The caravel is going south along Incan lands to discover more civs.

Another caravel finished by the end of my turnset is heading east.

Confucianism is holding itself against buddhism on the other continent. Probably thanks to the shrine. This is a good thing for us

We have one hindu guy going to Utica spread the word. This is a 10 pop city, nice to convert to keep Hannibal from converting to christianity. We also have a taoist missionary due in 1 turn from Yaro. I was thinking about Delhi but since it's building angkor wat, we can see to convert another city with production capacity to build a monsatery and more missionaries

Roster :

* blid : just played
* KANGA_DU : UP
* bede : on deck
* Sooooo
* GreyFox
* Jet



EDIT : ooops, someone nicely and discreetly warned me that I forgot this

 

[Kanga_DU]

Ok, got it, won't get to play till tomorrow night however.

 

[Kanga_DU]

There is a whipped library in Delhi. I would have preferred a temple here. In this city at least, let's try to have a clean GP pool. Pure prophets.

Mmmm, might of dirtied your pool, methinks.

Righto, 3 turns to CS, and a look around the cities. Could use to grow some. Having said that, I ended up making liberal use of that whip. Erk! Thats not a happy power graph I see. Only Asoka is weaker than us. Gotta somehow get a few x-bows.

Immediately swap a forge in for whipping in Dehli. I'm going to whip it next turn, then set Delhi to max growth. With it's food sources we should end up a bit ahead of just building Angkor Wat directly. (And I'll end up polluting the great prophet points with a few engineer points, sorry blid. I'm not liking that we don't have stone and Elizabeth does. Plus we are not running org.religion which makes us vulnerable to losing it. Though she still does not have philosophy yet, she might not be far off it.)

Elizabeth seems to be the clear tech leader overseas. She's not trading with HC however.

Now where is that enter key...

Hinduism takes at Utica, whilst Dehli loses some (4) population to the whip for a glorious forge. That built, the population goes back to the fields. Bit of farming and reproducing is in order.

Shortly I get a moron request.


That'd be a no Asoka. Civil Service is learnt and Paper research started. Research rate is slowed a touch to conserve funds. Taoism is spread to Novgorod. The revolution to bureaucracy begins. Ragnar's galley is sighted of the Inca's coast.


Hannibal now has Machinery, Cyrus will give Construction+small change for it, but not Feudalism. I balk at the beaker disparity.



We get a GS born in Moscow, I hold him over for Education. Paper is about a third done already.

A little later Cyrus would of done this trade. In retrospect I should of taken it.


At this point I ponder the trade situation with the other continent. England vs Inca/Vikings. Great, tech leader of that continent against the ones who don't trade as much (and currently don't won't to trade with us for religous reasons - Vikings are Buddhists btw). Then this cropped up.


Well I hope I'm not sorry for doing this, but I make the call on this. I commit us to the HC/Ragnar camp. We immediately take a boost to relations (+4 fair trading, +1 tribute). I open borders with Inca and Vikings.

Meanwhile a forge gets whipped at St. Petersburg, and bananas are traded to Persia for incense.

Hindu temple is started for Moscow. Bombay is whipped to complete a harbor, with a theatre next to be built. Hannibal completes the Sistine Chapel.


Ooops forgot to tell Miss Prissy she's no longer welcome.


Stupid ice. Where's climate change when you need it?


Whatever it takes to fund our research or more so whatever we take.


Bombay begins a courthouse, we need to stem the financial bleeding now. Novgorod and St.Petersburg are churning out new recruits to the crossbow division for now. We've worked the mysteries of Paper out now, so the great scientist makes a start on Education. Whilst the rest of our research efforts make a token start on Nationalism.

I'm hoping this deal will still be on the table for the next up.


I extra kindness to Cyrus, we've just built him a farm so he may marvel over its perfection.


Looks like some cultural pressure down here folks.

Another great scientist is due in three turns at Rostov. Do not let Moscow assign more specialists until then. Moscow is a much more a crap shoot. Research has been set to zero, to build a treasury to research Liberalism asap. Trickle research from specialists is going to Nationalism in the meantime, seeing as the second great scientist will complete Education with plenty to spare. I'd suggest Astronomy might be a good pick with Liberalism if we can snag it. We could work on converting Ragnar (if borders stay open long enough...). Observatories to aid research wouldn't hurt us either.

Damn we could really use representation and caste system, like yesterday as well.

Still kicking myself for not trading Mach/CS to Cyrus for Feud/Construction. I was not game to break the Philosophy monopoly to keep Angkor safe for now.

Ah yes! Finally, we should get circumnavigation next turn, if the ice stays parted in the north.

Good luck

Roster :

* blid :
* KANGA_DU : just played
* bede : UP
* Sooooo : on deck
* GreyFox
* Jet

 

[Bede]

Got it for tomorrow. Nice execution on the Indian war and really good follow through.

 

[Jet]

Let's finish the Indians before they get longbows or become a vassal state!

For Liberalism, Astronomy would be wise... but Military Tradition might be more fun.

 

[sooooo]

Constitution!

 

[Kanga_DU]

Let's finish the Indians before they get longbows or become a vassal state!

Heh, wouldn't be such a bad option, it'd fix that annoying motherland yearning penalty. I forgot to mention that Asoka converted to Hinduism at the end of my turn, so we might cop some negatives with not just Cyrus, but Hannibal as well. Might want to check what Hannibal still thinks of Asoka. A bit of quick research cash would be invaluable right now as well.

 

[sooooo]

Hi, I will need a skip when my turn comes up. I am away until Tuesday.

 

[Bede]

The deal was still there so I took it and started a string of catapults in Moscow

v

Novgorod started a Hindu missionary to finish the conversion of the homeland (Yekaterinburg still needed Hinduism)

And when Einstein showed up right on time finshed Education 920AD (T229) and configured the specialists for a run at Liberalism

Bangalore got its Monastery and since the circumnavigation bonus was in it started training missionaries for the Vikings as the caravels made their way home.

Kept the treasury in the black with map sales like this one

In 980 (T233)another scientist showed up in Moscow. He is still there awaiting orders.

We may want to rethink the use of the Liberalism tech for Astronomy as Banking is out in the world and the overseas contingent is choosing Mercantilism so the trade route income will be slim from overseas but I don't know I see an alternative.

In 1055 I whipped in Ankgor Wat (that is another way to get rid of the rejoin the homeland penalty)

and set the city up to produce our first Great Prophet. That meant pulling scientists from Moscow to reduce the GP count, but it is going to be a close run thing as Delhi will pull its prophet in 24 turns and Moscow's next GP is due in 25. It will bear careful watching.

In 1055 my careful setup for another Indian war ends up in a cocked hat

Asoka becomes a vassal of Cyrus. I was being too careful and didn't want to whack an Indian until we could do it with overwhelming force.


And now for the deal

I have no idea what I was thinking other than needing cash to finish Liberalism....

Picked up some more spare change from Hannibal for maps and bought Guilds for Paper and Philosophy from him. He now really loves us.

We have a nice army on the border with India, all dressed up with no place to go, except into Persia. Some of that Indian gold would have been nice. And in less than a dozen turns from launching the war Asoka would have been in the dustbin of history....

Liberalism now due in two and we would still need to acquire Nationalism to get Constitution. It is fourteen turns to Nationalism and with Capac now breathing down our necks I would be reluctant to chance it.

Roster :

* blid :
* KANGA_DU :
* bede : just played
* Sooooo : skipped
* GreyFox : UP
* Jet : on deck

 

[blid]

Nice progress guys Too bad about vassal thing, we could have used that nice army. I don't think we should go after Persia, we need some build-up here as we are in the red at 10%

Agree about not risking liberalism and take astro. We can use education to trade for banking and engineering. I like seeing Lizzie isolated, we don't want her as trade partner. She would probably be our main competitor for the space run

We would have to self research constitution. We need it badly. What I don't know is if we should self research nationalism or wait to trade for it.

Some MM stuff to consider :
- St Pete can use a couple watermills
- Novgorod should use the dyes
- Yaro should whip the forge. It is working unimproved tiles
- Delhi is the super commerce city. I think a market and grocer are more priority than a courthouse


We should also consider switching to CS now. IMO, once we can whip all those unis for 2 pops (now they cost 3 pop), we do it than double swap for free trade and CS

I also think that it is better to let Moscow get its great person before Delhi. In Delhi, we are sacrificing gold (gems and silk) and growth. In Moscow, we are sacrificing scientist points and their beakers. We would loose like say 15 turns on getting the prophet but we gain 22 turns working those nice tiles in Delhi and getting beakers and scientists points in Moscow ...

A little math later : we hire 2 scientists in Moscow and fire 2 priests in Delhi to work the gems and the silk.
We get a scientist in Moscow in 14 turns. Then we need 1350/60 = 23 turns to get the next one. So we need Delhi to birth a great person in less than 14+23 = 37 turns. We can get it in 31 turns this way :
- 2 priests for 9 turns : this means the next popup (in 2 turns) works a sugar. On turn 9, another guy is born and hired as priest. We have 531 gpp.
- 3 priests for 10 turns : on turn 10, another guy is born and hired as priest. We have 861 gpp
- 4 priests for 12 turns : > 1350 gpp

We delay the shrine by 9 turns. Another advantage to that scenario is that we maximize the odds of a prophet by diluting engineer points

 

[Jet]

Macemen versus Archers! We won't get this opportunity again. Four dyes (or even three if we use one to chain irrigation) is great, and with our investment in forges, gold is great.

Look at the power graph: Cyrus is only slightly more powerful than us. He doesn't have Guilds or Engineering, and we'll see him coming a mile away. By staying in Slavery and whipping defense if needed, we can easily hold him off.

It wouldn't be important what we did with the Kolhapur and Saxon land although I'd be inclined to resettle 1E of Kolhapur just to deny that area to Cyrus. Likewise not important whether we took Bactra or not, although if we did, great, because it would trim Cyrus back and not incur any additional diplo penalty except for closer borders.

It seems to me that it would be easy to repair our relations with Cyrus by staying Hindu and if necessary by adopting Vassalage. He's far enough behind that we could even give him tech to raise our "fair trade relations" from the current +1 to +4.

If defense whipping is required then we might have to give up some things, like getting the prophet as early (great analysis on GPPs, blid.) But I think it would be well worth it.

For Liberalism I'd like to suggest Economics, after trading Philosophy + 10 wealth to Elizabeth for Banking. Yes Elizabeth is in first place and is Philosophical, but the Philosophy cat is already out of the bag. (Edit: or Education for Banking+Engineering!) The main reason I suggest this is that the Temple of Artemis makes trade missions extremely good.

At this point trade missions will give us more beaker-equivalents than scientist lightbulbs. Right now our scientist is offering 2628 beakers (which will vary a bit by our population) and by my calculations a trade mission to London is worth about 3500 wealth (details in spoiler). It can be done without open borders. The trade mission does have the disadvantages of being delayed, and it takes time to spend the wealth. On the other hand, at the moment we have more science buildings than wealth buildings (we currently have no wealth buildings), so it's more efficient for us to spend our commerce on science than on wealth. The free 3510 wealth would more than make up for the 1350 beakers that Astro costs over Economics. And we'd deny the great merchant to an AI.

Spoiler :

Reference: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4915399#post4915399
distance to London (in tiles to the closest city) = high
pop of London: assume 16.
min(pop/2, distance/2) = 8.
TradeMultiplier % = 100% + 30% (from pop) + 100% (Temple of Artemis) = 230 %
100 * TradeProfit = 100 * 8 * 230% = 1840.
+ 500 = 2340.
* 1.5 for Epic speed = 3510

Anyway... This also suggests that at this point, of course we want scientists for research, but all things being equal we might prefer our great people to be merchants (or Engineers, and of course the one Prophet). Call me crazy, but I would spend our current scientist on an Academy in Delhi, since we're in the research game for the long haul.

Were it not for my desire for immediate war I would agree that we could go Caste System because (unusually) all our cities have good production, and we're up to Guilds, so that workshops won't suck. I'm not exactly sure where or how we'd use Caste System, but I bet we'd find a way.

I think we should self-research Nationalism. We already have a turn or two of research in it. With Marble we can build the Taj (yes it would not be that great, but we'll probably be in builder mode anyway).

 

[Jet]

I just noticed, an annoying thing about India would be having to take Karachi. But that would score two new resources, and a declaration is still worth it in my opinion.

 

[GreyFox]

Got It. I need to look at the save to digest all these, and weigh which approaches: (1) War vs No-War, (2) Liberalism Grab: Economics vs Astronomy vs Constitution, (3) Scientist vs Prophet and (4) Civics choice.

Wow ... why must such important decisions crop up during my turnset?

 

[blid]

I am not sure that what we gain with this war is worth the efforts we'll put into it. We would be taking diploamtic hits : difference between friendly and pleased is huge because in one case you know the AI would never declare on you. In 5 turns, we would be running with 10 or 20 % reserach. I prefer building an economy rather than fighting with Cyrus. But that's just me

Considering CS, it is indeed a question of are we entering a war or not. But, I know I am repeating myself, with 20% research on our measly income, our research just won't cut it. We need scientists and we need constitution. Later on, once cities have the major infrastrcuture, building research would be useful. But we can't affor it now that our cities don't have markets and courthouses.

Also speaking of diplomacy, trading with Lizzie would cost us minus modifiers with the buddhist camp. I do agree merchants would be great, but we can take banking from Ragnar IIRC.

 

[Jet]

At the moment Ragnar only has Engineering and won't trade it, but we could do Education+Music to Hannibal for Engineering+Banking. That's probably better than trading with Elizabeth. So far Hannibal has only met Elizabeth and is Annoyed toward her.

To refine what I said before, great merchants will be great until Elizabeth gets Chemistry, obsoleting the TOA, then merchants will be just good (have to check the trade mission yield again.)

 

[GreyFox]

I have looked at the save:

(1) War vs No War: I don't think we are in a position to go to war. We simply do not have the units to withstand Cryus's troops. Plus what's the point of going to war? We can't take any more cities, so the only reason is to get rid of the motherland-yearn ... but India has an island city of Karachi and w ehave like ... zero transport.

(2) Economics: I sincerely don't understand this -- ToA belongs to England. Jet, are you saying that it will yield 100% trade for our trade mission as well? I read the link in your spoiler, and it seems you have verified this as a fact. So, I will take your word for it. However, as I understand it, your advocacy of grabbing Economics hinges on the fact that the free GM is still available ... which I think not. Looking at the In-Game log, on 1085AD, Adam Smith (Great Merchant) has ben born in Cuzco (HC) .... and HC has banking on the diplo screen. I can trade for Banking now to verify HC indeed has Economics.

In conclusion, I will not be going to war, and I will most probably not be grabbing Economics via Liberalism.

Playing now.

PS> HC has met Elizabeth and has Engineering as well. But of-course we have nothing to trade with him.

--

 

[Jet]

1. Maybe after we're done with the game I'll play some shadow turns and see if I can prove you wrong about standing up to Cyrus. I believe we could have taken more cities, so the point would have been 3 or 4 dyes, gold, sheep, crabs, motherland yearning, more farms and hammers, and doing it while it's still Macemen vs. Archers.

2. Yes, I'm positive that the Temple of Artemis affects missions you send to it. It's because part of the mission yield formula is trade route commerce multiplier buildings (harbors and the ToA). I knew Economics hadn't been discovered because on the tech tree screen, Economics still showed "first to discover receives a great merchant".

 

[GreyFox]

@Jet: RE War, after playing, I think we can go to war ... but I a not sure if it is for better or worst. Anyway, war is still possible, and I have started a galleon, so we really can eliminate India.

Back to the game:

The log gives me a hunch that the free merchant opportunity has passed.

But I still dilligently check for trades.

Liz wants Education + Philosophy for a simple banking, I laughed and counter offer the more reasonable trade:

She felt insulted. Well, as the old Chinese saying goes: "One must have insulted oneself before being insulted by others". Your initial offer is as insulting ...

I look for other revenue to get Banking:

and got it. Next, I clicked away Liberalism, and hover over Economics at the top of the screen:

This confirmed my guess -- Free Merchant is gone. This is the only reliable way to know if the freebie attached to a tech is still available. The hovering bubble in the tech screen, as far as I know, does not change with the game.

SO, we will have to get a merchant by conventional means if we still want to make use of it.

Thus, when liberalism comes in, there is only 2 real choices: Astro vs Nat. Actually, I am tempted to get Nationalism, as we need constitution much more than we need Astronomy. However, as the team since to agree on astro (that is, with Economics out of the question ), I did just that:

With Liberalism, the computer asked me to change civis to Free Religion.

Nah ... I don't think so. Pacifism is what we need. But, I do change to Caste System.

Blid, I know you say change to Caste now if we are not going to war, but I thnk I'll rather incur the revolt after getting Liberalism.

Thereafter is a simple building of infrastructure. I let the courthouse in Delhi continue, possibly a (but one must make at least one move per turnset ), my reasonig being it is 1 quarter of the way done, and market takes a lot more turns. End turn, I have worker chopping trees near Delhi, so the courthouse should complete real soon, and hammers overflow should go to a Bank.

By the way, I have spent the initial turn turning off all city automation, I never liked that, just my style.

also, we have a great scientist sleeping in Moscow which I failed to read from any previous turnset report (which is most probably my own negligence). He can learn us 2200+ beakers for PP. However, since we have no cottage, PP is rather useless. I debated on settling him right in Moscow. But I restrained myself, since even with a 100% modifier, it will take 200 turns to break even. Let the team decided what to do with him. And to add more challenge to the decision, we are going to get yet another great scientist in Moscow next turn (cross finger it is a scientist!) ... since I went crazy with scientists specialists in Moscow after revolting to Caste.

By end turn, I started quite a few markets to pave the way for adding merchant specialists (yes, caste system allows that already, but as Jet mentioned, without commerce multiplier, scientists is more worth it right now).

>>> The Save (1160AD) <<<

Spoiler Autolog, hopefully no more spoiler info :

Logging by Ruff's Cobbled Mod Pack v2.0.4 (Warlords v2.08) - New Log Entries
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 240/660 (1100 AD) [03-Feb-2007 09:11:08]
Tech learned: Banking
Tech learned: Engineering
Research begun: Liberalism (2 Turns)
GreyFox: trade(Cyrus) - Upped sugar for 4gpt to 5gpt
GreyFox: trade(Cyrus) - Changed banana for 4gpt to sugar for 5gpt
St. Petersburg's borders expand
Yaroslavl' finishes: Forge
Bangalore's borders expand

IBT:
Attitude Change: Cyrus(Persia) towards The Farmers(Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 241/660 (1106 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:11:24]
Yaroslavl' begins: Lighthouse (18 turns)
A Mine was built near Bangalore
Tech learned: Liberalism
Yaroslavl' grows: 4
Delhi grows: 8

IBT:

Turn 242/660 (1112 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:18:03]
Tech learned: Astronomy
Research begun: Nationalism (3820 Turns)
A Farm was built near Novgorod
A Mine was built near Yekaterinburg

IBT:
Attitude Change: Ragnar(Vikings) towards The Farmers(Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Civics Change: The Farmers(Russia) from 'Slavery' to 'Caste System'

Turn 243/660 (1118 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:21:52]
A Workshop was built near Moscow
A Workshop was built near Rostov
Moscow grows: 15
Moscow finishes: University
Bangalore finishes: Hindu Missionary
Yekaterinburg finishes: Forge

IBT:

Turn 244/660 (1124 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:30:55]
Moscow begins: Observatory (10 turns)
Bangalore begins: Hindu Missionary (6 turns)
Yekaterinburg begins: Galleon (10 turns)
A Workshop was built near Bombay

IBT:

Turn 245/660 (1130 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:40:25]
A Farm was built near Yaroslavl'
St. Petersburg grows: 11
Novgorod grows: 13
Bangalore grows: 10
Yekaterinburg grows: 8

IBT:

Turn 246/660 (1136 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:42:35]
A Farm was built near Delhi
Rostov grows: 9

IBT:
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Ragnar(Vikings), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 247/660 (1142 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:45:16]
A Farm was built near Yaroslavl'
Hinduism has spread: Hadrumetum (Carthaginian Empire)
Delhi grows: 9
Yekaterinburg's borders expand

IBT:
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Ragnar(Vikings), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 248/660 (1148 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:47:56]
Hinduism has spread: Ollantaytambo (Incan Empire)
Bombay finishes: University
Delhi's borders expand
Bangalore finishes: Hindu Missionary

IBT:
Attitude Change: Elizabeth(England) towards Ragnar(Vikings), from 'Annoyed' to 'Furious'

Turn 249/660 (1154 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:50:39]
Bombay begins: Market (15 turns)
Bangalore begins: Hindu Missionary (4 turns)
Bombay begins: Observatory (15 turns)
St. Petersburg finishes: University
Novgorod finishes: University
Rostov finishes: University

IBT:
Islam founded in a distant land

Turn 250/660 (1160 AD) [03-Feb-2007 10:54:23]
St. Petersburg begins: Market (18 turns)
Novgorod begins: Market (12 turns)
Rostov begins: Market (11 turns)
A Workshop was built near Yaroslavl'
A Windmill was built near Rostov

 

[Jet]

I'll might be playing in an hour or so. I can't see the save right now but I'm tempted to start the war (believe it or not ) if the circumstances still seem reasonable. Objections? Granted the situation is different now, but in case you have a chance to take a look... Kanga_DU, are you still logged in? (I'll PM you).

 

[Kanga_DU]

I'm leaning to no to war, however that is subject to change. That is if the benefits of a war make up for the negatives diplomatic relations, I'd say yes.

I believe we could have taken more cities, so the point would have been 3 or 4 dyes, gold, sheep, crabs, motherland yearning, more farms and hammers, and doing it while it's still Macemen vs. Archers.

The rewards, as I see now, makes it a slightly in favor of war. I'd like it to be more imperative to declare. Bear in mind I'm generally cautious in choosing to war.