blid02 - The farmers shuttle

Jet · Jan 22, 2007

> Good call on the trireme.
Agreed. (I mean, one doesn't need it until the last minute, but in general Bede very well set us up to raid very soon, if that's what we choose to do.)

> The good thing is that they are on flat land.
Well, Delhi is on a hill.

> And I noted that Asoka has no shrines built.
He's Spiritual and has a temple, but I don't know. In Temple of Doom HC didn't build his capital shrine until 1655 AD! One of the BetterAI changes (later version) was specifically to make AIs more likely to run priests in holy cities. These inferior civilizations take forever to spawn their philosophers anyway.

> cottage wrecker
Not to be pedantic, but we just traded him Pottery, so if we went pillaging very soon it wouldn't be quite as lucrative as that. It would be more about denial.

sooooo · Jan 23, 2007

I see it and will play either tonight or tomorrow. So are we going after construction or not? Lightbulbing compass seems OK to me.

Atlas · Jan 23, 2007

Bede said:
Lots of wonders, some needing marble, have already been built on another continent, and a Confucian shrine has been built. Somebody out there must be on the Alphabet track. And I noted that Asoka has no shrines built.

That Parthenon combined with the Temple of Artemis is going to be a nightmare combination for you guys I think. You will want to watch what kind of Great People are being born to unknown civs. If the civ that nabbed both of those is popping Great Artists you will face competion on the top of the tree and for a Philosophy pop should they get a well timed Prophet. The good new for you all is that the Priest Specialist should have them popping lots of Priests and probably taking Divine Right/Theology (has that gone yet?). With 2-3 religions on the other Continent you should be safe as far as avoiding a single religous block. In anyevent that wonder combo should have them moving at a good speed through the tech tree.

Jet · Jan 23, 2007

I think the best research choices are Construction (for protracted or upcoming war, and for trade) and Drama (the cheapest monopolable tech). We could research one of the 3 Cs (Calendar/Currency/CoL), but I don't think we'd get any of them first. I'm inclined to think we should try to trade for all three.

The next lightbulb is in 20 turns with 2 scientists in Rostov, but it's Calendar. We have some GPPs banked in Moscow, but it needs to start the great library and under the circumstances I guess there's no rush. Moscow can build the GL in 35 turns without marble, minus a few for the final whip. That's probably fast enough to win the race.

With Rostov running two scientists and St Pete and Novgorod at full production it's around 35 hammers per turn. So every 3 turns they produce a Sword and an Axe or Spear. We can support 9 more units (inside our borders) before striking. With one more turnset of unit buildup we'd probably have enough melee units to take and hold Delhi as well as raze Calcutta.

Another possibility would be to run max scientists in all cities, and keep as many units as possible in queue (not built) so as to get Construction or Drama ASAP. Then trade that tech + Compass for the 3 Cs. (This could also open a Metal Casting or Philosophy lightbulb). Then switch to zero scientists, max production for a buildup to blitz Delhi and Calcutta. This would put the great library at great risk, but I think securing the 3 Cs in a timely way and getting Delhi would probably be more valuable. I think Construction would fit this option better than Drama.

The decision partly depends on exactly what tech trades we think will be available. We know Hannibal has Calendar (Silk). We also know everyone else has Priesthood and Mono (they're all running OR). They'll probably get Monarchy soon. Trading Alpha to Hannibal for Math and to Cyrus for Masonry and Priesthood would give us more information about everyone's tech (maybe Cyrus would even take Math for Masonry and Priesthood.)

Asoka is building the Hanging Gardens. He has seven cities and should have metal soon.

There might be a single continent to our north, because of our northern coast.

sooooo · Jan 23, 2007

I like drama. We can trade drama+alphabet for lots of things and then lightbulb philo. Optics is also real priority for us to get more trading partners.

sooooo · Jan 24, 2007

Sorry for the delay, playing now.

sooooo · Jan 24, 2007

Interesting turns.

Start off by looking around our cities. We have most cities mmed for production, fair enough. Moscow (trireme) and Novgorod (axe) have units 1 turn from completion and each have another unit in the queue 1 turn from completion. I mmed these two for commerce (hire scientists) so as not to waste hammer overflow. Also hire 1 more scientist in Rostov. This reduces literature to 1 turn. My plan is to finish off current military builds and then max commerce. Bede has set me up with some nice stacks to cause mischief with the Indians.

Literature comes in, start Drama. Hey, Asoka, what the hell are you doing?

That's just not right. Declare war, capture worker, the city is defended by 3 archers, only 1 promoted. No losses - great success!

Hokay, St Petersburg starts a settler for the marble. Moscow begins the great library. Begin the pre-chopping at 2 forests in wait for marble and mathematics to amplify it.

Happy time, we pop a gems at St Pete

Beg 180 gold from Hannibal - and he gives it to us. He's still pleased; no negative from declaring on Asoka. Science to 100%.

Asoka sends 1 chariot towards Rostov - promote sword to C1 and kill it.

Whip settler, send it towards marble site. Going to go for the coast here. 1S of marble is a bit silly because we lose the bananas. Without cottages, trade routes are large source of income, and coast helps here.

Our nothern swords heal and advance on Bombay. Not as much luck here as we lose 2 of them, but take the city.

Meanwhile, Yaroslavl is founded.

I started a granary working the marble here - not sure if that's better than working unimproved bananas.

Hannibal has alphabet now. I trade it to Cyrus for mathematics.

No one will trade masonry, they all "have their reasons". So I research it, only takes 2 turns. When it came in I finished the chops at Moscow.

Great prophet is BIDL this turn - I thought it was time to get philosophy right now. But in hindsight that is illogical thinking - we wanted other civs to found Taoism because there's less chance of a religious love-in on the other continent. Philo requires meditation so I do this trade:

Pop philosophy, Taoism founded in Yaroslavl. Start plantations on dyes and bananas. Research into metal casting, on the way to optics. Hannibal has currency but won't trade yet - we need that tech.

At Delhi a large army gathers. Defended by 4 archers, 2 chariots and 1 horse archer. Here's what goes down.

Send in 3 chariots - 1 withdraws the other two die. A little bit of damage to 3 archers.
Send in five swords - first two lose but 3 win, 1 archer left.
Send in first spear - kills last archer.
Send in other spear - loses to horse archer, GRR
Send in 2 axes - both kill chariots.

So the city has 1 wounded HA and is going to be reinforced by 1 chariot. We have few healthy troops but lots of promotions available and should take city next turn. We have a healthy spear who has potential to be CR2.

Didn't change civics to pacifism. We want to wait until the borders at Bombay (jewish holy city) pop. The city has 3 food resources all in the second ring.

The Save

Research at a nice, healthy 10%. Great library due in 2 turns. Then rehire the scientists at Moscow, obv. Settler is in queue at Novgorod for the fish spot next to the capital. Most cities have 2 scientists.

GreyFox · Jan 24, 2007

I see soooo has set me up nicely for taking delhi :goodjob:

... got it. need to take a look at the save and evaluate the situation first though ... been quite a long while since I last played this one.

Jet · Jan 24, 2007

Awesome turnset! We're in a much better position than I thought we could be. Besides Delhi

, I'm hoping we can (at least) get a level 4 unit before declaring peace.

sooooo · Jan 25, 2007

I forgot one thing: we have a great general. I guess the best way to use him is a medic 3 unit? Lets us build the heroic epic.

To use pacifism we need a few hindu missionaries. So we need to build either monasteries or research monotheism. Monasteries possibly better.

Just going to restate urgency of optics. We can use a GS to lightbulb it. a specialist strategy is all about lightbulbing and trading, and with every extra trader we know, the value of each tech we get can double.

GreyFox · Jan 26, 2007

First state of business was to take Delhi ... QED considering a spear having 96% against the Horse Archers ...

Code:

[size=2][color="DarkOrange"]Swordsman promoted: City Raider I[/color]
[color="DarkRed"]While attacking in Indian territory at Delhi, 1st Spearman (Spearman) defeats (2.08/4): Indian Horse Archer (Prob Victory: 96.9%)[/color]
[color="DarkOrange"]Swordsman promoted: City Raider II[/color]
[color="DarkRed"]While attacking in Indian territory at Delhi, Swordsman defeats (2.88/6): Indian Chariot (Prob Victory: 88.3%)[/color]
[color="DarkOrange"]Hinduism has spread: Delhi[/color]
[color="RoyalBlue"]Captured Delhi (Asoka)[/color][/size]

Somehow, even winning all battles, war weariness starts creeping in ....

Guess we just have to wait for the oppression penalty to fade ... or build a temple ... or better, adopt a religion.

Thus once the Great Library was completed ...

I immediately declared the farming god to be one of the Hindu deities.

Don't worry, the borders of Bombay had already popped. ... but the fishing boats there got pillaged by an Indian trireme, which was heading towards our capital. Let's see how our trireme fares against his.

After all the farmers finish buying all the incenses to pray to the Hindu God, I plunged them into yet another state of revolt for converting to Pacifism:

As if on cue, a great person was borned.

Code:

[size=2][color="Brown"]Antony van Leeuwenhoek (Scientist) (Great Scientist) born in Rostov[/color][/size]

Despite what soooo says, I think an academy would be better than lightbulbing Compass ... (we should research compass on our own and use scientist for optics). Especially when we have the Great Library. TGL+Academy = 3 free super specialists instead of 2.

But I did heed soooo's suggestion and joined the warlord to a swordsman ... he is promoted to Medic I, with 2 more promotions available.

Code:

[size=2][color="DarkOrange"]Chandragupta Maurya (Swordsman) promoted: Lead by Warlord[/color]
[color="DarkOrange"]Chandragupta Maurya (Swordsman) promoted: Combat I[/color]
[color="DarkOrange"]Chandragupta Maurya (Swordsman) promoted: Medic I[/color][/size]

He then led our troops from Delhi to Bangalore, and the city falls with one sword winning at 25% (while one lost at the same odds):

Code:

[size=2][color="DarkRed"]While attacking in Indian territory at Bangalore, Swordsman defeats (2.22/6): Indian Archer (Prob Victory: 25.7%)[/color]
[color="Red"]While attacking in Indian territory at Bangalore, Swordsman loses to: Indian Archer (0.30/3) (Prob Victory: 25.7%)[/color]
[color="DarkRed"]While attacking in Indian territory at Bangalore, Swordsman defeats (6.00/6): Indian Archer (Prob Victory: 100.0%)[/color]
[color="DarkOrange"]Hinduism has spread: Bangalore[/color]
[color="RoyalBlue"]Captured Bangalore (Asoka)[/color][/size]

One good thing abt this city is that it will bring us copper.

Our science funding remains at a whopping 10% (and still losing gold at that), but the war loot gives us sufficient buffers to keep us away from bankruptcy. By the time our coffers bleed dry, the sugar farms in Delhi should have already been converted into plantations, bringing us some needed gold. However, I think we should suspend expanding our "farming operations" (read：capturing cities) as our economy cannot yet substain them. With that in mind, I checked what Asoka is willing to offer:

Looks like a possible deal. I recommend taking it.

I have also started a few monasteries. What I don't understand is why is Rostov building yet one more settler? To settle where?

>>> The Save (200AD) <<<

Spoiler autolog :

ruff_hi · Jan 26, 2007

Good - no more english pillaging. I guess they either solved their barb problem or the fix in the logger is working

sooooo · Jan 26, 2007

Nice, another good city in Bangalore. Peace now?

Despite what soooo says, I think an academy would be better than lightbulbing Compass ... (we should research compass on our own and use scientist for optics)

Yeah, agree here. I didn't argue for lightbulbing compass with our second scientist. Just considered it for our first but we went for philo instead.

What I don't understand is why is Rostov building yet one more settler? To settle where?

That guy was for the fish spot next to Moscow. We don't have to settle that spot urgently, which was why I was building it slowly while running scientists. There was nothing else Rostov needed to build at the time.

Jet · Jan 26, 2007

I might try to raze Madras to relieve the cultural pressure on Delhi and secure Delhi's Silk hassle-free. By the time I got to Madras it might have more defenders, but I can move there and assess whether it can be razed. Either way, peace shortly.

How about NE in Moscow for the short-term benefit, which is when it's important, even though Delhi can eventually support more specialists. Also since Delhi should get Wall St, it gives us the option of putting Oxford there too (we can decide about that later).

How about Heroic Epic in Novgorod. Novgorod would also be great for Ironworks, and personally I hate Heroic Epic and Ironworks in the same city because I like keeping up a stream of units no matter what. But since we're Expansive, Bangalore would be almost as good for Ironworks. St Pete would also be good for Ironworks if we're willing to go State Property.

I'll park the settler on the Moscow/fish spot but probably wait to settle him until we're not in the red at 0%.

After Metal Casting I'll research Compass and save the next scientist for Machinery.

Assuming we get the copper from Bangalore, I'd like to give the Colossus a shot.

I'll get started on temples and religions in Moscow so that we can start prophet roulette there. We certainly need Hinduism there for the Pacifism bonus. I'll also see if I can send any Hindu missionaries to Carthaginian cities. Christianity has spread there although apparently it was not founded by anyone we know. Only one Carthaginian city is Hindu. In general I think missionaries are good builds right now in order to secure Hinduism as the dominant local religion, and later for the shrine.

sooooo · Jan 26, 2007

Would be against the HE in Moscow because it gives artist points. We want it in a food-poor city that wouldn't be producing great people. Colossus obsoletes too early for my tastes. Apart from constitution, our second economic goal is biology, which will involve early astronomy, obsoleting colossus. Agree on missionaries.

Jet · Jan 26, 2007

Sooooo, I didn't propose putting the Heroic Epic in Moscow. I proposed putting the Heroic Epic in Novgorod and the National Epic in Moscow. If you meant "we want the National Epic in a food-poor city that won't be producing great people", then I'd almost understand what you meant. Maybe you meant we should put the National Epic in a city where it can "keep up" with the Great Library city. Can you clarify please?

I agree the Colossus ain't all that for us. I just figured that with Copper, trying for it wouldn't kill us.

blid · Jan 26, 2007

Great progress guys :goodjob:

I got busy lately and my system crashed so couldn't participate in discussions in here

Cocnerning NE, putting it in Moscow does involve a risk of getting artists but the +50% is worth taking the risk IMO. We just need to make sure there's always 4 scientists running (2 of them from the TGL) to make the odds favourable enough. The other option is building it in Delhi to make it our future GP farm but this city sounds like the perfect commerce center. It is not coastal so the trading routes won't be that great but it has gems and a lot of sugar plantations.

The current configuration gives us a scientist in 8 turns in Novgorod and in 9 turns in Moscow (I suspect it's been done on purpose

). Lt's make sure to keep things that way because Novgorod would have a hard time catching with Moscow later and it needs to grow so the scientists should be fired after we get that geek. Agree on HE there BTW, I don't think state property would be good for us, as I don't expect we'll be overexpanding. Maybe just punitive missions for civs interested in visiting the stars

I agree on missionaries and spreading hinduism but I won't build temples in Moscow because if we hire priests there, they would be competing with the TGL scientist. Let's use Delhi to hire prophets and get those shrines.

sooooo · Jan 26, 2007

Jet said:
Sooooo, I didn't propose putting the Heroic Epic in Moscow. I proposed putting the Heroic Epic in Novgorod and the National Epic in Moscow. If you meant "we want the National Epic in a food-poor city that won't be producing great people", then I'd almost understand what you meant. Maybe you meant we should put the National Epic in a city where it can "keep up" with the Great Library city. Can you clarify please?

No sorry, my mistake, I thought you were talking about the heroic epic in moscow.

Jet · Jan 26, 2007

One Axeman scouted out northern India and the rest of our army advanced to Madras. It took a few turns because I wanted to wait for a couple of reserve Swordsmen. An Archer threatened Rostov and pillaged its plains mine, so I whipped an Axe there, who died attacking the raider.

Fortunately when all our troops got to Madras on turn 4 (260 AD), they only faced two Archers and an Axeman, as well as some special "reinforcements" that Asoka sent in at the last minute:

You'll notice that Mr. Maurya has an unusual combination of promotions. I didn't do that, I just found him that way.

Madras was razed, and then:

I probably could have gotten Currency instead, but I assumed that peace techs don't count toward WFYABTA and so I figured it was opportune to pick up the cheap ones.

The eight workers were inducted into the peasantry, losing their extra movement point and adopting a more leisurely Russky pace. But they quickly improved most of the resources around Delhi, including the Silk that we now controlled. Then I split them up.

I pillaged all the improvements around Madras, even the farms. (Hey, they weren't our farms.) I checked out this barb city, but our swordsman-based army wouldn't have been up to the task of razing it, so I left it alone:

Hannibal discovered Metal Casting around turn 9, and at some point he picked up Theology, too. I bet he's trading with the founder of Christianity. Humph. He's trading away OUR continent's techs!

Also on turn 9 the Colossus was BIDL, but I didn't notice that until just now, as I'm writing.

On turn 10 (350 AD):

Followed by:

Ka-ching!

I also begged 160 gold from Cyrus and got it. It was half of what he had. I didn't try asking for more. I don't know much about begging, but I figured he had a bunch of gold and we hadn't asked for any, so it seemed like a reasonable time to do it.

As promised,

Around turn 14 (425 AD), Longbows appeared in Carthaginian cities:

Not all of his archers are upgraded yet.

Notes:
- Aristotle and Plato were both born this turnset. They're asleep.
- the work boat by Moscow has a move-to order to Yekaterinburg's fish.
- Bombay is building a Forge at max production, but with the Colossus BIDL there's no point to that (oops).
- A couple of small trades for GPT are available. We aren't supplying Cyrus with any resources, so we might want to do one with him, at least. We have tons of health, so it might also make sense to replace Hannibal's Clams for Crabs with Clams for 4 GPT.
- In general, this turnset our happy cap was high and rising, so while there are scientists hired, I generally emphasized growth. Among other things, you can see that that is paying off in nice trade routes.

I didn't get around to starting the National Epic in Moscow. I built a temple (for the prophet source) and a lighthouse (for growth). A priest is hired for prophet roulette. Actually, if Moscow holds out on the National Epic (maybe leave it with one turn to go?) and if it holds out on Hinduism (Pacifism), Rostov currently is scheduled to pop a scientist on the same turn as Moscow, before it falls behind. I'm not sure whether that's worth it.

Delhi would be a good place to hire priests as blid proposed, but (without doing the exact arithmetic), I knew it would take a while for Delhi to get all the temples and catch up to Moscow in GPP. So I thought it would be better to try to get the prophet from Moscow. Moscow certainly has enough food to employ both scientists and priests.

One scientist should lightbulb Machinery. For the other, I think Optics and an Academy in Delhi are both reasonable, because Optics is not that expensive, and our existing Trireme and the one in Moscow's build queue could quickly be upgraded to Caravels for circumnavigation. Besides Optics it doesn't seem like there are many good lightbulbs coming up. With CoL and Theo we could do Civil Service. With Machinery and Construction we could do Engineering.

After the Heroic Epic I'd build a Forge in Novgorod (I know that's backwards), but then I'd be at a loss for what kind of units to build, because anything we built would probably be obsolete by the time we used it. What do you all think? Swordsmen, to get a good power-to-hammers ratio? Horse Archers (after a Stable), to enable a mass upgrade to Cossacks?

In the Strategy & Tips forum, Snatty has been discussing upgrades to Cavalry as a fast way to get a powerful invasion force - for example, from Horse Archers. It's expensive, but by that time you're pulling a lot of beakers/gold/commerce. To me, it's a surprisingly not bad possibility.

blid · Jan 27, 2007

Jet said:
Fortunately when all our troops got to Madras on turn 4 (260 AD), they only faced two Archers and an Axeman, as well as some special "reinforcements" that Asoka sent in at the last minute:

Your trip to Madras was a highly fruitful one. See, those guys would have been sitting bored with nothing to do in the measly indian empire, now we get them jobs. I'm sure they'll be happier now

re priests in Moscow, I understand the reasoning. It's just that I got used to know what was coming and plan accordingly. A chance prophet from Moscow would be good indeed.

Concerning army, I think we need more defensive units than offensives ones. Cossacks are great for attacking but they don't get defensive bonuses. Unless you guys think we should attack another of our continents civs

I think we need to spam Hannibal with missionaries. He has much chrisitian cities. Is it sure it got founded on another continent ?

EDIT : forgot the got it. Would play tonight or tomorrow

blid02 - The farmers shuttle

No, no, please. Please.

Emperor

Titanus

No, no, please. Please.

Emperor

Emperor

Emperor

Make it so ...

No, no, please. Please.

Emperor

Make it so ...

Live 4ever! Or die trying

Emperor

No, no, please. Please.

Emperor

No, no, please. Please.

Emperor

Emperor

No, no, please. Please.

Emperor

Similar threads