I personally find Polynesia to be very powerful under human players as well. He is the only one who can meet everyone at classical era which means more DoFs and trades. Tieing down lux - lux trades with everyone on the map allows a very early expansive liberty play style and the good thing is Polynesia will always find corners to settle so its expansion wont likely get in the way of other players. The moais are the best terrain tourism generators and is not as limited as brazilwood or chateau. Only limited on Pangaea.
BNW Deity Tier List
- Thread starter adwcta
- Start date
I personally find Polynesia to be very powerful under human players as well. He is the only one who can meet everyone at classical era which means more DoFs and trades. Tieing down lux - lux trades with everyone on the map allows a very early expansive liberty play style and the good thing is Polynesia will always find corners to settle so its expansion wont likely get in the way of other players. The moais are the best terrain tourism generators and is not as limited as brazilwood or chateau. Only limited on Pangaea.
Justice1337
Sofa King
Pietato
Platonic Perfection
Exploits? Perhaps. I have tried it on Deity with Raging Barbarians, and the AI goes all out killing barbs. You can face some massively levelled up enemy troops. Of course they will be facing your extra range archers...
You can level up your units beyond level 2 on barbs? Also AI already gets 30 free xp on Deity.
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adwcta
King
FYI, list updated, will make tweaks in the long weekend. The most notable change, I think, is I gave more consideration for tourism.
France was being underrated, because I didn't consider their ability and bonuses for going wide. After calculating that in, France is actually a rather insane civ for going wide (while holding its own vs other civs with per city bonuses). They're better than the rest of lower mid tier even without factoring in their UA (even when I time-weighted things).
Dutch are hanging on by a thread. I pretended the happy doesn't have a cost, and there's 4 unique luxes in a 4 city civ and an average of 2 polders. Any of that sound off?
France was being underrated, because I didn't consider their ability and bonuses for going wide. After calculating that in, France is actually a rather insane civ for going wide (while holding its own vs other civs with per city bonuses). They're better than the rest of lower mid tier even without factoring in their UA (even when I time-weighted things).
Dutch are hanging on by a thread. I pretended the happy doesn't have a cost, and there's 4 unique luxes in a 4 city civ and an average of 2 polders. Any of that sound off?
_megafone_
Warlord
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- 192
If you're giving extra consideration for Chateaus, maybe reconsider Polynesia as well? On a regular Pangaea start, if you calculate that a 4-city empire, with just 4 contiguous Moai tiles in each, that's a flat 40cpt (2-3-3-2) yield, if I remember it correctly. Sounds like a lot to me! Culture from terrain tiles is a HUGE boost for cultural strategies.
adwcta
King
Poly was moved up an entire tier (and a significant one at that). Brazil was moved up a old half tier. France was moved up a old 1.5 tiers.
Poly's ability for mid-game culture still burns tiles that could otherwise be worked (to set up the moai(s) that you do work, which is a rather large drawback (it's as if the Celts could never remove their 3 forests). And, they don't get any gold until flight, so they don't reap the benefits of additional trade routes sent by the AI.
Kahran Ramsus
Warlord
I think the * should be removed from Polynesia at least. Archipelago doesn't usually result in enough space to get Moai chains set up properly and most islands are connected by shallow water which renders their UA pointless. It should probably be a ", because it needs long coasts to truly be effective.
even when a "list" without considering the winning type u aim for is dumb imo i ll give u some pointers:
Korea needs definatly be downgraded (maybe even 2 lvls), espacially when considering deity lvl gameplay where u get very few science wonders,
their uus are very useless on most maps and game types (who does attack in late medi era??? usually thats the era attacking being hardest as ai often allready got knights and muskets, while human got xbows, trebs and pikes) and sea city defense is totaly unneeded.
Poland should have a tier on its own, its great in every situation for every type of win.
Their boni are just much better as all others.
Babs and Maya fit good in 1 top tier.
Arab should be top tier, even when some dublicate lux might not be sellable as ais might have them on their own. 2nd best UB and best UU in game.
Military vic is a walk in the park with units never even getting damaged.
Venice isnt 2nd tier as it needs water map to shine, on pangea map its pretty bad civ.
Austria is a bit meh as u loose CS bonus when pupeting - could be downgraded.
Celts is meh on most maps - clearly worse as shoshone or ethopia or inca and definatly not same tier as arab.
Persia GA bonus is underrated - its great both for eco and fighting could go 1 tier up.
Egypt belongs only down there on a deity list, on lower lvls i d call it a 2nd tier civ
Rome is meh as u buy most buildings anyway. DOWN
Russia being below civs like Rome most be a joke or just clueless - its definatly a top civ maybe not 1. tier but 2nd.
Spain needs to be pretty unlucky to not be good, its definatly same tier as brazil or morocco and very often top.
Mongolia is pretty close to be a vanilla civ short of this 1 unit which isnt THAT great imo - down to the bit better as vanilla civs
Zulu 2 tiers below England? just no.
the vanila civs.
japan belongs here too (fighting with injured units = dead units usually)
ottoman belongs here
civs like Greece sweden shonghai are so close to be vanila civs that u might put em here too, even when they obviously got SOMETHING
Maybe some1 else wants put my coments into an overview list.
Korea needs definatly be downgraded (maybe even 2 lvls), espacially when considering deity lvl gameplay where u get very few science wonders,
their uus are very useless on most maps and game types (who does attack in late medi era??? usually thats the era attacking being hardest as ai often allready got knights and muskets, while human got xbows, trebs and pikes) and sea city defense is totaly unneeded.
Poland should have a tier on its own, its great in every situation for every type of win.
Their boni are just much better as all others.
Babs and Maya fit good in 1 top tier.
Arab should be top tier, even when some dublicate lux might not be sellable as ais might have them on their own. 2nd best UB and best UU in game.
Military vic is a walk in the park with units never even getting damaged.
Venice isnt 2nd tier as it needs water map to shine, on pangea map its pretty bad civ.
Austria is a bit meh as u loose CS bonus when pupeting - could be downgraded.
Celts is meh on most maps - clearly worse as shoshone or ethopia or inca and definatly not same tier as arab.
Persia GA bonus is underrated - its great both for eco and fighting could go 1 tier up.
Egypt belongs only down there on a deity list, on lower lvls i d call it a 2nd tier civ
Rome is meh as u buy most buildings anyway. DOWN
Russia being below civs like Rome most be a joke or just clueless - its definatly a top civ maybe not 1. tier but 2nd.
Spain needs to be pretty unlucky to not be good, its definatly same tier as brazil or morocco and very often top.
Mongolia is pretty close to be a vanilla civ short of this 1 unit which isnt THAT great imo - down to the bit better as vanilla civs
Zulu 2 tiers below England? just no.
the vanila civs.
japan belongs here too (fighting with injured units = dead units usually)
ottoman belongs here
civs like Greece sweden shonghai are so close to be vanila civs that u might put em here too, even when they obviously got SOMETHING
Maybe some1 else wants put my coments into an overview list.
adwcta
King
Their UA actually is insanely useful when you can't otherwise expand pre-optics. It let's them hit other things faster, pick up more runes, etc. It goes from a rather pointless early UA, to one of the most useful. I'd say Poly is upper mid tier on island maps because of it.
Kahran Ramsus
Warlord
adwcta
King
Tommy, what science wonders can't you hit in deity? Are you only playing Pangaea? That map type is not considered for the tiers (or Hun's would be wayyyy higher, see Cro's post). We've talked about Arabia, a lot. How are Celts clearly worse than Ethiopia? I'll think about Egypt and Persia more. Rome is the best civ in that tier. Who "buys" most of their buildings!?!? Russia's my anchor, I'll move the entire rest of the tier down before moving Russia up. People are very divided on Spain, I think the middle represents a good compromise, it certainly is the most volatile civ. I have no idea how you want to move Arabia up and Mongols down, when they're already 2 tiers apart. Consistency. Zulu has very little in common with England, not sure how you're comparing, but remember, no Pangaea. I use plenty of injured units in battle and you do too, like all planes for example, units that pilage heal but didn't heal fully, the second attack on a unit in one AI turn, etc..
Also, "it's a vanilla civ" is an awful reason for comparisons of power... for fun, maybe.
Also, "it's a vanilla civ" is an awful reason for comparisons of power... for fun, maybe.
_megafone_
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2011
- Messages
- 192
I don't know about other Deity players but I usually don't have work a lot of "blank" tiles (tiles with no resources or freshwater) until the early-lategame, when I already have Fertilizer or am close to teching it; between your resource tiles, freshwater tiles, and specialists, you only need to work a few of those, so this drawback you mention is completely negligible, at least in my game experience. Hell, I usually have some free tiles with 30pop caps when playing OCC. Oh, and I almost never remove my Forests when playing Celts, except if they are freshwater. =P
Not saying Poly is awesome or anything but I'd rate them as solidly as any of the civs you put on the lower-mid tier.
@tommynt: Much respect for all games you post here, but saying Korea doesn't belong in the top tier is almost insulting. Any science bonus whatsoever is absolutely nuts in the hands of any experienced player, since you can easily snowball it into whatever the hell you want to do - having Artillery when everyone else is on muskets, for example, is a hell of a military bonus, much better than whatever warmongers can do. Also, what "science wonders" are you talking about? I only remember three (GL, PT and Hubble), and the only one you can't ever build on Deity is the first one. Doesn't sound like a big problem to me.
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
If you have really high cultural output in the capital you can put moai in the 4th tier to avoid wasting workable slots. That comes late, but it comes in time for hotels and airports, so IMHO that's a good way to handle it. Placing moai early is counter-productive usually. No opinion on their tier as a civ. Also, if you get a tundra or desert start with them, at least the tiles that you would never work anyway can have moai. But that's at best a consolation prize for having bad tiles in your city.
Still, for some reason, I really like their UI, regardless of effectiveness.
Kahran Ramsus
Warlord
I really appreciate you doing this adwcta. It is very informative.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2004
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- 1,281
Poland should be moved up in a class of its own
Mongolia only middle tier ??? It's quite powerful at early domination...
Arabia with its camel archers and cash powerhouse also seems under appreciated
Spain also seems underrated
Venice seems over rated - too dependent on city states
Apart from the top 2-3 civ tiers, the remaining civs are just "average" - in SP there is not really an "underpowered" or especially difficult civ to play, except perhaps under some circumstances for India and Venice which are the only civs with a handicap.
Mongolia only middle tier ??? It's quite powerful at early domination...
Arabia with its camel archers and cash powerhouse also seems under appreciated
Spain also seems underrated
Venice seems over rated - too dependent on city states
Apart from the top 2-3 civ tiers, the remaining civs are just "average" - in SP there is not really an "underpowered" or especially difficult civ to play, except perhaps under some circumstances for India and Venice which are the only civs with a handicap.
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
Left Forever
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2012
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- 4,146
Poland is very very overrated by some:
It got no early bonus at all which is in my opinion far far more important then later bonuses, on diety the early game is the hardest.
Its UB and UU is neither that good either.
Of the 4 listed so called top civs only Bab and Maya got strong early games and the others two should be considered to be moved down.
Atleast Huns should be listed here because at their so called weak maps you Will nearly allways win anyway and they destroy the hard maps pretty easy.
It got no early bonus at all which is in my opinion far far more important then later bonuses, on diety the early game is the hardest.
Its UB and UU is neither that good either.
Of the 4 listed so called top civs only Bab and Maya got strong early games and the others two should be considered to be moved down.
Atleast Huns should be listed here because at their so called weak maps you Will nearly allways win anyway and they destroy the hard maps pretty easy.
Light Cleric
ElCee/LC/El Cid
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2011
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- 3,225
It gets two free social policies by the Medieval, that's a pretty huge early game bonus.
Also echoing what tommy said about Persia and what I said before, the Golden Age bonus is sick, 3 movement + 10% combat strength + the normal gold/producton bonuses from a GA increased to 15 turns for a normal GA or 12 for an Artist made one, even more amazing if you can find the AI with Chichen Itza and take it from them.
Also echoing what tommy said about Persia and what I said before, the Golden Age bonus is sick, 3 movement + 10% combat strength + the normal gold/producton bonuses from a GA increased to 15 turns for a normal GA or 12 for an Artist made one, even more amazing if you can find the AI with Chichen Itza and take it from them.
adwcta
King
Thanks! Glad that it is! Building and maintaining this has taught me a lot about the game as well.
As for Poly, the UI actually works best if your city is NOT on the coast itself, but 1 tile in, which denies you a lighthouse and harbor. Resources along the coast also screw with your moai placement. It's not as powerful in practice as on paper (and even on paper, it's not as good as France resource-wise when you factor in costs; even though you do have more endgame tourism).
Cromagnus
Deity
- Joined
- Sep 11, 2012
- Messages
- 2,272
Yeah, Persia is amazing. We did a Persia Deity HOF challenge back in December where the rules required that you had to clear the map without using ranged units or any Industrial or later unit. Moriarte put in the best run: 5 opponents down by t131. (Small map) We never tried on a Standard Pangaea, but it illustrates the point. Not many civs could do this without chariots or archers. Maybe not anyone but Persia... it really emphasizes how important movement rate is in Civ. Persia is definitely a top-tier warmonger. Maybe not when you crunch the numbers, but in actual practice they are awesome.
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