[BNW] Diety World Wonders Tier Thread

[Evening gonad]

I really like World Wonders, and I wanted to look at a tier list about BNW World Wonders, and after ten seconds of searching, I couldn’t find one. Therefore, I decided to make this, which pertains to BNW Deity level games.

My qualifications for this are a working copy of the game and an internet connection. I am particularly interested in what people’s perceptions are of how I ranked these things, as a corrective to my own inexperience at this game. So here it goes!

Some of the guidelines I used are:

1. I assume that you can get the wonder. I.e. Great Library will be ranked, even if you can’t really get it. So there is partially theoretical quality to the list.
2. The wonder will be ranked as if it was acquired at the point in the game you are likely to get it. So you won’t be anticipating replicating aircraft carriers with Terracotta Army, or building CN Tower in your mid-game.
3. They will be ranked by the victory condition that would most benefit from the Wonder. The victory conditions will be generic Science, Culture, Domination, and Diplomacy victories. If a wonder is flexible to benefit several, it will be noted as “Any.”
4. I assume you will build the wonder when you get a decent benefit from it. You won’t build Petra on a one tile desert. I assume there is a mountain in range, or you are on the coast; whatever is necessary for the wonder. The ranking won’t go up or down because you need to build Prora on a coast, even if that can make things inconvenient in actual game play.
5. I assume a standard/standard continents or pangea map.
6. I use an A+ to F ranking. Within grade rankings are roughly in the order I prefer them.

I will move these around if enough people make compelling arguments about them. In particular, I have very little experience in Domination at Deity level, so there might be a strong science/culture turtling bias.

A+

Hubble (Science): Expensive as any wonder, but game breaking, which is a feat for a late game wonder. TWO GS’s, a spaceship factory, and extra production? GS points are an afterthought but still. It’s everything a late game wonder should be, with massive and immediate benefits. I have won and lost Deity games because of this wonder (I’m not very good).

Petra (Any): Food and production for each desert tile really adds up over the long term. Given the right terrain, makes any city into a super city. An additional trade slot as well? And a caravan, and 6 culture when you hit archaeology to go along with the 1 you get at the beginning? All at a reasonable price. Hard to beat.​

A

Statue of Liberty (Any): Really close to an A+ level. Free social policies are ggggrreat! And flexible. The specialist production synergizes so well with Freedom tenets, its almost unfair. Plus she’s hot.

Notre Dame (Any): I love happiness. I loathe unhappiness. More smiles means more growth, science, everything. And 4 faith is good. Merchant points are more a negative than positive, but I think I can handle this. Sadly, I almost never get this wonder. If I got it, I think I would like it. Still, happiness can be pretty fungible depending on game circumstances, so this might seem better on paper than in practice.

Leaning Tower (Any): Great people generation is great. An additional great person is great too. Increasing the great person counter is less great. Overall, great. Has that under the hood usefulness of 25% Great Person generation with the sizzle of an immediate great person. Like an attractive spouse who is, you know, also not a terrible person. Useful for most strategies.

[Edit: Text added]
Big Ben (Any): Buying things rocks. It makes your science and industry go faster, and probably does other things as well. Buying stuff cheaper thus rocks as well. A little extra spending money doesn’t hurt either, though gold seems to be the stuff that is easiest to generate. 2 great merchant points drags this down a little. A little expensive to build, but generally nice for all strategies. Combos with social policies like Mercantalism, Skyscrapers, and Mobilization for eye popping savings. Role play a cybernetic Rumplestilskin from a dystopian future who can spin entire armies from a few scraps of gold! I know I have my Halloween costume lined up. [Thanks to consentient for pointing this out]

Oracle (Any): Maybe this should be higher. The problem is I always have to punt some policy into patronage, or commerce, or something, when I would rather open rationalism. Of course patronage and commerce are actually pretty good, so maybe I am being an idiot. 3 culture is good, and the GS points are also very good.​

A-

Temple of Artemis (Any): Long term for the most part. Has the added spice of cheaper ranged units, which are the type you want to build anyway. Cheap to build. I always want this. If there was a “smack you in your silly mouth” benefit to go along with this, it would have pushed it higher. Not quite enough sizzle for that.

Hanging Gardens (Any): It's a hospital, when hospitals would be incredible. Try not to imagine Nebuchadnezzar taking your temperature in a sexy nurse's outfit (You're welcome). Honestly, I don’t really know the difference between this and ToA. This one is probably better if you are going tall. A free garden is nice. All very refreshing.

[Edit: Moved up]
Sistine Chapel (Culture): This is all slow build, under the hood stuff. But 25% culture in all cities is ALOT. And arts slots are the best slots. Generally useful, because culture is useful, and can be tricky to generate sometimes. Chasing a cultural VC, getting this is a sword and shield.

Porcelain Tower (Any): This always seems like it is missing something. I always feel like I am just building a GS. The two GS points are also a real attraction here. I think I get so little out of the research agreement part, I tend to discount this more than I should. It is a little expensive, too. Don’t get me wrong, I generally build this thing. But I resent it.

Pyramids (Domination): GREAT for pillage-repair. Two additional workers are nice for domination, as you need a flood of workers to soak up bullets and get stuck in tank treads anyway. Liberty is also a strong domination tree. Also good for building roads everywhere, which can really help. Merely OK for everyone else. If not going domination, I don’t miss it one bit.​

B+

[Edit: Moved this up]
Machu Picchu (Domination): Better for wide, and can potentially mean lots of gold. The faith benefit is nice, too. Its early and cheap. As pointed out, pretty useful for Domination. It comes early, when you really need the gold, and with connections everywhere, you can make a hefty sum. Also on the crossbow line, which is nice and accessible.

Chichen Itza (Any): Happiness is good. Culture is good. GE points are probably a wash. Golden ages, though, are very nice. Going with Persia or Brazil makes this even nicer. Strong stuff.

Prora (Any): Confession time; I’ve never built this on Deity. A free policy alone probably makes it worth it, and depending on your game, the happiness effect could add up to a lot of smiley faces.

Eiffel Tower (Culture): I think I overrate the Eiffel Tower. And it is expensive. But twelve tourism means more GA’s and GW’s to bulb. The happiness is nice. GM points is slight drag. If you aren’t going culture victory, there isn’t a whole lot here, though.

Parthenon (Culture): Early tourism just doesn’t seem all that important. Lots of culture, though. I like culture.

[Edit: Moved up]
Borobudur (Any): Bunch of missionaries is a good way to start spreading your religion. Of course the AI is likely to quash your religion anyway. Still, you get 5 faith to take home with you.​

B to C+

The great middle mass. Hard to differentiate clear ranks between these.

[Edit: Moved down]
Hagia Sophia (Any): So you get 3 faith. But you also get a free temple! That’s up to 5 faith. And a Great Prophet, which is the best part. The problem, as people have pointed out, is that the religious wonders in Theology won't help you establish a religion on Deity. At least you can spread religion, or enhance it.

Statue of Zeus (Domination): I hate attacking cities. They are so smug and hard to damage. Anything that makes that easier is good. Its cheap too. Though ideally you just capture it. In my (very) uninformed opinion, my favorite Domination wonder.

[Edit: Moved down]
Kremlin (Domination): Probably the worst of the ideology unique wonders. But if armor units are your path to victory, this would help a bunch. I feel that you would have got the bulk of your conquering done by this point, and I’ve never really used armor that much. I guess I am more into bombers and artillery. Free policy alone is again probably worth it.

Forbidden Palace (Diplomatic): Extra delegates help you win. The unhappiness reduction is also sweet. I want this wonder. Still, each of these effects can be duplicated through other means.

Colossus (Any): Bizarrely, I agonized over this entry the most. This should be a great wonder! Lots of gold, which is fine. But the trade route is the main attraction here, and the cargo ship. (The Great Merchant points this early are actually a pain.) This is an interesting case where a Wonder is ruined by just being one or two tiers too advanced on the tech tree. As is, I can just replicate this by researching cargo ships and a tech that gets me another trade route at a much cheaper cost. And won't take me way off my general tech path. No one beelines iron working, because swordsmen don't work all that well in Deity. Going crossbow misses it too.

[Edit: Moved up]
Taj Mahal (Any): A smattering of happiness. And a golden age. I remain limp. I’ve seen good players build this thing, so there is probably some value here. Better for Persia, too. Still, I wish there was one more component to this thing.​

[Edit: Moved up]
Louvre (Culture): I don’t often go Exploration, but when I do, I build the Louvre. Uses artifacts for theming, which is nice. Better than Uffizi or GT. Comes with a great artist.

[Edit: Moved up]
Uffizi (Culture): Uffizi is the aesthetics policy branch incarnate. Yeah, you should probably take it for a peaceful CV. But you don’t like it. Building the Uffizi is like eating your vegetables. Only in this case, there are a bunch of people madly scrambling for the plate of vegetables like it’s a stripper covered in cocaine. You think to yourself “is this really worth it?” but you are already swinging a barstool at some guy’s head, because, hell, you assume the crowd knows something you don’t. And you end up with a plate of steamed beets. Or worse, crumpled in a corner somewhere with a concussion and a punctured lung, with no beets. Ultimately, it’s just a building to fill with great works. But you do get a great artist, so that's something.

[Edit: Moved up]
Globe Theater (Culture): Essentially a cheaper and smaller Uffizi (for writers!). But writing slots are much less useful. The writer itself is rather valuable.

[Edit: Moved down]
Great Mosque of Djenne (Any): The increased spreading ability of missionaries is probably not a huge deal, and this is weaker than the other Theology wonders because it generates no great people or missionaries. All it does is generate faith. You can still build a temple, unlike Hagia Sophia (where it is unlikely you can build a mosque). Another downer is having to take Piety.

Neuschanwantsomething (Any): I confess, I build this thing more than I am comfortable admitting. I think I settle near mountains a great deal, and it is often available. The last women at the bar, and all, you know? Don’t judge me. Anyway, in terms of actual effects you get lots of gold, culture, and happiness, and even more with castles. OK if you are turtling with defenses.

[Edit: Moved down]
Cristo Redentor (Any): This seems more powerful than it plays. Maybe because the effects are so under the hood, and comes relatively late. It is just so burdensome to build with its hammer count. More expensive than SoL, and it doesn’t have anything approaching that flash. It feels like building the Parthenon at 5 times the cost and 150+ turns later. Not a lot of competition for it, though.

[Edit: Moved up, changed victory condition]
Broadway(Any BUT Culture Culture): A culture producing Wonder for you, and gives you music slots so you don't need opera houses. MUCH WORSE SCORE FOR CULTURE VICTORY, AND IS PROBABLY A TRAP. Best to save your musicians for bombs. Actually could be used to hurry a CV as a bomb if you move really quickly and get a little lucky.

​

C

This is probably the cut-off. Stuff below here are the things you probably won't be bothering with, unless you have a lot of slack in your game.

[Edit: Moved down]
Brandenburg Gate (Domination): XP for units with GS points and a Great General. That’s not terrible. Still, as with all military based Wonders, I always think: Shouldn’t I just be building units? Maybe it is better for peaceful play, where GG’s are harder to come by.

[Edit: Moved up]
Alhambra (Domination): Drill promotions are good! 20% culture boost is good! AI always takes is bad .
​

C-

Mausoleum of Halicarnassus (Any): Problem is, gold is better early, when you aren’t really expending that many great people.

[Edit: Didn't feel much love for this one. Moved down]
Great Lighthouse (Domination): +1 sight for ships is definitely useful, but +1 movement might be scary.

[Edit:Moved up, than down]
Great Wall (Domination): The slowing effect is pretty good. Probably better captured then built, and it is a bummer that it eventually gives out. Sucks when the AI builds it, too.

[Edit: Moved down]
Pentagon (Domination): If you are late game conquering, cheap upgrades are nice. Hordes of units to upgrade might tax your financial resources. I'm getting the impression that this is too late a wonder, and should be moved down even further.

[Edit: Moved way down]
Stonehenge (Any): I had this at rank "A." I wanted to put it higher. Five faith so early seems incredible. You are already 1/10 of your way to a decent Faith output. It can get you a pantheon and religion. The picture that goes with it looks really cool. But beelining something from turn 0 brings with it costs that simply don't exist at other points in the game, and perhaps it is practical for this list to reflect this special circumstance. A shame. Not bad if you conquer it later, but it loses its luster if it isn't pumping out faith from the very early going.

Great Library (Science): Yes, I know you can’t get it. But if you could, it seems OK. The main attraction is probably the early GS points, followed by the +3 beakers. But even early game, those beakers are replaceable. Free library is nice. The free tech is actually not that great early on, but it is a perk (the problem is that you usually need the ability to DO things with your tech, before researching it is actually useful). The slots in writing are not that useful; writing slots are a dime a dozen in this game, and given the usefulness of bulbing writers, are rarely filled to capacity for me. All together, it is an OK package as a super library. What is an early GS point worth? Probably quite a bit. Edit: I've decided to take into account the cost of beelining a Wonder from turn 0 as a special case. Too much opportunity cost. Maybe this should be even lower.​

D+

You are making up for past mistakes if you are building these

[Edit: moved down]
Himeji Castle (Domination): Defensive, with GE points. The defense effects seem pretty good, but the GE points don’t really feed into anything. If you are fighting everywhere because you are sniping capitals, this could be useful.

Sydney Opera House (Culture): Policies are great, so if you are in the endgame that requires something, and you haven’t got it yet, maybe this will save your plan. Still, comes too late for the rest of it to have meaning. Music slots are terrible for CV, and this is in the CV line of tech. If it came with a musician, that would actually be something. Hell, even if it came with a pre-built great work of music. Late game wonders should come with great people more often.

Great Firewall (Any): Like the analog Great Wall, more important in an opponent’s hands than your own. Can throw a wrench in your cultural victory if you are lagging. Enemy spies stealing your tech shouldn’t have a huge impact at this point, and opponents probably shouldn’t have internet before you win.

CN Tower (Culture): If you beelining internet, maybe you could build it so you don’t have to build broadcasting towers in all your cities if you are doing a Liberty/Freedom cultural victory with tons of cities or something. Still, probably better to have built towers earlier. The happiness and population is probably moot at this late date.

[Edit: Move up]
Red Fort (Any): Defense buildings… with GS points. OK. That at least makes sense to harden a turtling victory. It isn't even that cheap. For GS points when you don't have better ways to spend your hammers.​

F

Not good investments. They may actually hamper you.

[Edit: Moved down]
Angkor Watt (Any): Cheaper tiles and faster expansion? I… guess so. Maybe on a larger than standard map, if you were trying to fill space or something? Haven't heard a good word about this wonder. Skip.

[Edit: Moved down]
Terracotta Army (Domination): Double your crappy army! Would have been nice to help with maintenance. Haven’t ever built this myself, and I wonder (again) whether it outweighs just building units. Does this replicate experience? Would it matter at this stage if it did?





​

 

[vra379971]

Great Wall (Any): The slowing effect is pretty good. But it is only one city, so if you know you have a vulnerable city, great. But just building units seems like a generally more flexible response. Worse when the AI builds it

...this is empire wide, what are you talking about?

 

[Evening gonad]

Great Wall (Any): The slowing effect is pretty good. But it is only one city, so if you know you have a vulnerable city, great. But just building units seems like a generally more flexible response. Worse when the AI builds it

...this is empire wide, what are you talking about?

My bad, you are absolutely right. Empire wide, which is definitely better. That notches things up a bit.

 

[stormtrooper412]

There are some points I really disagree with but that will have to wait when I have some more time to comment on it

 

[Evening gonad]

@Stormtrooper

When you have the time, I would appreciate the feedback!

 

[consentient]

Great idea for a thread. I've seen nascent ideas towards such a list before, but nothing so developed.

I have very little experience in Domination at Deity level, so there might be a strong science/culture turtling bias.

Actually, the bias could never be as bad as you think, because warmongers don't build Wonders. We take them. So yes, the strength of the wonders and how they aid us contributes sometimes to the order of a capital sweep - e.g. Palenque 15 tiles away with Sistine Chapel = mercy beaucoup - but largely, it's not of so much importance, with the exception of Big Ben which is almost a must.

Stonehenge (Any): I want to rank this one higher. Five faith so early seems incredible. You are already 1/10 of your way to a decent Faith output. It can get you a pantheon and religion. But it seems really hard to get.

It's near on impossible to get post-patch, and it's often not enough to guarantee a religion on its own anymore It was a favourite of mine when you could fairly consistently get it T36-40 with worker chops, and not deviate too much from the usual path, but it goes T23-28 now most of my games. I know you said that you wanted to not take into consideration too much how available it is, but even if you get it, the game has changed so as to nerf it considerably...I would say so, anyway.

Big Ben (Any): Buying things rocks. It makes your science and industry go faster, and probably does other things as well. Buying stuff cheaper thus rocks as well. A little extra spending money doesn’t hurt either, though gold seems to be the stuff that is easiest to generate. 2 great merchant points drags this down a little. A little expensive to build, but generally nice for all strategies. Makes opening commerce attractive.

I'm glad this is high up. From a warmonger's POV, this + Mercantilism + Mobilisation + Barracks, Armories, Military Academies means that you can buy the best troops for next to nothing, every turn. As Peddroelm (who brought this combo to my attention) said: it snowballs and is really hard to counter. The best remedy for Deity unit spam.

Temple of Artemis...Not quite enough sizzle for that.

Wait so TSOL is sexy but Artemis isn't???!!! You're off my Xmas card list!

Hagia Sophia (Any): So you get 3 faith. But you also get a free temple! That’s up to 5 faith. And a Great Prophet! You could even plant that, to get a level of faith that I can’t even calculate. All for a measly 300 hammers, your faith problems could be over! Order today.

I think though that the problem with getting a religion established is that the hardest challenge is before T100. And HS has mainly long-term benefits. Personally, I think Borobudur is the best of the Piety wonders.

Porcelain Tower (Any): I think I get so little out of the research agreement part, I tend to discount this more than I should.

I've been reliably informed that not making the most use of RAs is adding 50 turns to my SV finish times. But I'm no expert...

Sistine Chapel (Culture): This is all slow build, under the hood stuff. But 25% in all cities cannot be ignored. And arts slots are the best slots. Generally useful, because culture is useful.

I think this needs to be higher, probably in the A+ category. The difference with it is like night and day for me. Plus, you know, there is an opportunity cost to not having it. It means one of the AI has it and CV becomes a lot more difficult. If I play peaceful, I beeline Acoustics now far more often than Printing Press.

Prora (Any): Confession time; I’ve never built this on Deity. A free policy alone probably makes it worth it, and the happiness is pretty useful. As I understand it, you get happiness only for Autocracy policies, though? If it is all policies, this moves up.

I go Autocracy 7 times out of 10 and only ever build this when I've f-ed up and have happiness problems. But you have to REALLY f-up to have happiness problems with H-C-A. It is ALL policies though.

Kremlin (Domination): Probably the worst of the ideology unique wonders. But if armor units are your path to victory, this would help a bunch. I feel that you would have got the bulk of your conquering done by this point, and I’ve never really used armor that much.[/INDENT]

Not only should you have gotten the bulk of conquest done by this point, but you should be BUYING your units, not building them. Cities should build Wealth at this point.

Machu Picchu (Any): Better for wide, and can potentially mean lots of gold. The faith benefit is nice, too. Its early and cheap.

This is a Top 3 wonder for Domination, purely because you will have at least 8 cities when you finish the game, probably nearer 15 or even 20. Unlike some who delete roads, I keep them up and make them work for me, earning mular.

Terracotta Army (Domination): Double your crappy army! Would have been nice to help with maintenance. Haven’t ever built this myself, and I wonder (again) whether it outweighs just building units. Does this replicate experience? Would it matter at this stage if it did?

I had this work for me one time when, playing as Ashurbanipal, I had a Warrior, a Spearman, an Archer, a CB, a Siege Tower and a Horseman. I cleared my continent and then waited 100 turns to meet the other bunch....j/k...it was Warlord. This SUCKS on Deity..

Great Firewall (Any): Like the analog Great Wall, more important in an opponent’s hands than your own. Can throw a wrench in your cultural victory if you are lagging. Enemy spies stealing your tech shouldn’t have a huge impact at this point, and opponents probably shouldn’t have internet before you win.

Yes you're playing sub optimally if you have to build this, but sometimes things don't go your way despite what you do, so you have some runaway who could conceivably build this really early. I'd move it up just because every now and then you HAVE to build it to win a CV.

- - -

Good list. Hope my 2Kc. is useful to you.

 

[Evening gonad]

Thank you for the feedback, consentient! I'm going to digest what you said.

[I've made a few changes, thanks again!]

 

[TheGuineaPig]

This is my list. Organized alphabetically. Includes probability of actually getting it on Deity, out of 10.

TIER 1: AMAZING

Transformative. Worth beelining to if possible.

Borobodur (2)
Hubble Space Telescope (10)
Notre Dame (0)
Petra (4)
Statue of Liberty (9)

TIER 2: VERY GOOD

Wonders that provide very strong benefits, and definitely worth getting if they mesh well with your strategy.

Alhambra (0)
Forbidden Palace (5)
Hanging Gardens (2)
Prora (8)

TIER 3: GOOD

Wonders that generally provide a good return for their hammer investment.

Leaning Tower of Pisa (4)
Machu Picchu (3)
Oracle (6)

TIER 4: SITUATIONAL

Wonders that can vary between fairly strong and worthless depending on your strategy.

Big Ben (8)
Brandenburg Gate (5)
Chichen Itza (2)
Colossus (4)
CN Tower (8)
Eiffel Tower (10)
Globe Theatre (2)
Great Mosque of Djenne (2)
Great Wall (1)
Hagia Sophia (2)
Kremlin (8)
Louvre (6)
Porcelain Tower (8)
Pyramids (3)
Sistine Chapel (6)
Stonehenge (0)
Temple of Artemis (1)
Uffizi (5)

TIER 5: BAD

Wonders that rarely return their hammer investment.

Broadway (10)
Cristo Redentor (10)
Great Library (0)
Great Lighthouse (3)
Himeji Castle (0)
Mausoleum of Halicarnassus (2)
Neuschwanstein (10)
Parthenon (0)
Red Fort (2)
Statue of Zeus (2)
Sydney Opera House (8)
Taj Mahal (3)

TIER 6: NEVER BUILD IT

Wonders that are active detriments to your game and should almost never be built.

Angkor Wat (2)
Great Firewall (10)
Pentagon (10)
Terracotta Army (0)

 

[Evening gonad]

Thanks, Guineapig. So what is Alhambra to you? A basic culture booster? A jump off for domination campaigns?

In general, I am feeling consistent upward pressure on Borobudur, and downward pressure on Terracotta Army.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Alright, this is strictly in my experiences, it obviously doesn't mean it should be taken as absolute truth.

Hubble (Science) - yes it breaks the game and yes it brings immense stuff on the table but basically what it *really* does is SPEED UP your science victory.
You are quite obviously going to finish first ( ) and I guess a passive use of Hubble is that it's better for an AI not to have it than you to have it.
If you're going Freedom, then the Spaceship factory is not needed either. Wouldn't really rank it that high.

Stonehenge (Any) - Not really all that useful given the opportunity cost. On Deity you really can't afford to waste precious early turns on this.

Leaning Tower (Any) - I find this more useful than it is. I know my game is going to end well if I can manage this one.

Statue of Zeus - Again, better to use early turns on getting out more units for early game wars. Move down

Sistine Chapel (Culture) - Hands down THE culture wonder to have. Move up.

Porcelain Tower (Any) - I kind of feel this has been made less useful since G&K but I otherwise agree.


Machu Picchu (Domination) - This is useful for pretty much any VC, I feel it should be higher

Kremlin (Domination) - Free policy is basically the only *really* good thing about it, because I would assume you either don't plan on going war or have picked Autocracy

Great Library (Science) - Opportunity cost again. Even if it were available until 50-60, I still wouldn't really waste time on it.

Great Lighthouse (Domination) - Is this really that good?


Colossus (Any) - I'd prefer it being available sooner and on the Sailing part of the tree (obviously). Otherwise it detours you a lot so I don't find it worth it.

Cristo Redentor (Any) - I like this. It comes conveniently just after SoL so it should be available right off the bat if you did well enough before.


Taj Mahal (Any) - Should be ranked higher but happiness is hardly an issue at that point.

Neusch - Probably my favourite and one of the most underrated wonders in the game, it's very very good to have around. Move up definitely

Great Wall (Domination) - A bit confused, if you're going on conquest, why would you really *need* this. I'm going to assume this is another case of *I should have this so others can't*

Mausoleum of Halicarnassus - Very situational. See China DCL where it's A+ useful. I usually don't bother with this.


Terracotta Army - One of the more useless wonders in the game.

Globe Theater (Culture) - This definitely needs to be moved up. At this point you're likely to already have made a pair of writers and writer themed wonders are not really that plentiful.
It's a decent plan B if you can't seem to find any Artifacts.

Himeji Castle (Domination) - Rather useless.

Angkor Watt (Any) - Very useless. I think I've only built it once in the Egypt ICL

Alhambra (Domination?) - This should be ranked higher but it always goes so fast, meh

Sydney Opera House - Basically a Sistine Chapel on steroids, very good to have. However, if you played well, chances are, you won't really need it because you're closing in.

Great Firewall - Again, build it so nobody else can. However, it comes too late to make an actual difference.

CN Tower (Culture) - USeful if you want to get a Tower up in a city that would otherwise take too long to build it, and you get free pop and smilies. Only worth if going Culture via Freedom obviously.

The rest, I agree with

 

[Evening gonad]

Thanks stormtrooper!

On Stonehenge/Great Library, I agree on the issue of opportunity cost. Like consentient said, if they could be built between turns 50-60, would be nice. I am particularly disappointed for Stonehenge, I want faith to be a bigger part of my games. The earliest wonders are hardest to place on the sort of scale I am using. I want an evaluation of wonders that might uncover a workable gem (through examining what makes a wonder great), but beelining these in particular IS impossible/overly costly in a way that later wonders are not.

As you have commented, I am thinking of dropping Zeus and Lighthouse. I am relying on others to correct me on domination heavy wonders.

On Sistine, I love it so much so that I had it initially too low, thinking it was my own bias toward it. But no, it is actually very good.

I am keeping all your comments in mind going forward. Again, thanks!

 

[TheGuineaPig]

Thanks, Guineapig. So what is Alhambra to you? A basic culture booster? A jump off for domination campaigns?

In general, I am feeling consistent upward pressure on Borobudur, and downward pressure on Terracotta Army.

Alhambra lets you get 4 promotion units. It's wonderful. I'm probably overrating it for singleplayer, but it's just so much fun to have it. If you get into a late domination war with bombers it's really great to have.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Some thoughts on a few of those. With no real order.

Alhambra's promotions are valid only for melee/gun and cavalry/tank lines, so bomber won't benefit it (but AA units also benefit from it). It's also very often built by AIs before i even get the tech as i tend to go Education before chivalry.

Temple of Artemis The easiest early wonder to build! In most games, AIs will build it after Stonehenge/GL and you need only one tech to build it. Not as strong as Hanging Garden early but scales really well with number of cities and tiles worked. Great wonder for growing big cities, and much easier to get than HG in most deity games.

Petra Very situational! Often, an amazing Petra city is a worthless non-petra city and due to the risk of not being able to get Petra at all (in about 8/10 games it's built before i have the tech so even Liberty GE won't help me), i rarely settle such a location. When you have good desert (floodplains), Petra won't help you. Only when you have a good amount of Floodplains and lots of mountains is the location worth settling in the first place as it will be good without Petra, and Petra will make it better.

Great Lighthouse If you want to win domination on (small) continents maps, this+exploration opener = incredibly fast moving navy with huge vision = total sea domination. Not easy to get on non-pangea map and requires a tech you probably don't want that fast thought so best case is when an AI on my continent build it.

Neuschwanstein I actually like it. Easy to get (i do take this into account) and gives you lots of gold/culture/happy. That happiness comes at a time where ideological pressure can be painful because you don't yet have your ideologies happiness policies. Culture will help you get in your ideology faster and gold is always useful (if not game breaking). Obviously useful if you have castle. I often build them now in my cities as they are very fast that late, maintenance free, and gives you everything.

Borobodur is very situational in that you need it only if you have a religion, and it won't help you get it. It also won't guarantee that you can fight against the AI as they are in high spread phase when it becomes available. Often i already have my religion in my own cities when i can build it, then i build it, convert a few CSs and have an AI turn them to their religion within a dozen turns. My favorite use is when i have Initiation Rites as i can turn 300 hammers into 600 gold and slow down AI pressure on my cities, but i only do this if i have nothing really useful to build. If you have Pilgrimage of course, things are different but how often do you get Pilgrimage at deity? Very situational.

 

[nickytootricky]

A+

Hubble (Science): Expensive as any wonder, but game breaking, which is a feat for a late game wonder. TWO GS’s, a spaceship factory, and extra production? GS points are an afterthought but still. It’s everything a late game wonder should be, with massive and immediate benefits. I have won and lost Deity games because of this wonder (I’m not very good).​

Definitely not game breaking. If you're there by this time, you should win a science victory. Move down.

Petra (Any): Food and production for each desert tile really adds up over the long term. Given the right terrain, makes any city into a super city. An additional trade slot as well? And a caravan, and 6 culture when you hit archaeology to go along with the 1 you get at the beginning? All at a reasonable price. Hard to beat.

Best wonder by a mile, but is situational and does have a big opportunity cost. If you don't get it you're screwed. If you have a great start then it's really worth beeling it.

A

Statue of Liberty (Any): Really close to an A+ level. Free social policies are ggggrreat! And flexible. The specialist production synergizes so well with Freedom tenets, its almost unfair. Plus she’s hot.​

I think SoL is overrated, because by the time you build it, you probably aren't going to need that many hammers. The hammers you put it into it (or faith) could be better spent on something else. Move down.

Notre Dame (Any): I love happiness. I loathe unhappiness. More smiles means more growth, science, everything. And 4 faith is good. Merchant points are more a negative than positive, but I think I can handle this. Sadly, I almost never get this wonder. If I got it, I think I would like it. Still, happiness can be pretty fungible depending on game circumstances, so this might seem better on paper than in practice.

Agreed, but you NEVER get this on Deity. Move down for that reason (or create another category for wonders that are good but you can never get)

Leaning Tower (Any): Great people generation is great. An additional great person is great too. Increasing the great person counter is less great. Overall, great. Has that under the hood usefulness of 25% Great Person generation with the sizzle of an immediate great person. Like an attractive spouse who is, you know, also not a terrible person. Useful for most strategies.

Agreed. It's a decent bonus, plus a free wonder. Potentially great for all victories.

[Edit: Text added]
Big Ben (Any): Buying things rocks. It makes your science and industry go faster, and probably does other things as well. Buying stuff cheaper thus rocks as well. A little extra spending money doesn’t hurt either, though gold seems to be the stuff that is easiest to generate. 2 great merchant points drags this down a little. A little expensive to build, but generally nice for all strategies. Combos with social policies like Mercantalism, Skyscrapers, and Mobilization for eye popping savings. Role play a cybernetic Rumplestilskin from a dystopian future who can spin entire armies from a few scraps of gold! I know I have my Halloween costume lined up. [Thanks to consentient for pointing this out]

Might be good for domination, but I can't see it being that worth the hammers for most victories, move down.

Oracle (Any): Maybe this should be higher. The problem is I always have to punt some policy into patronage, or commerce, or something, when I would rather open rationalism. Of course patronage and commerce are actually pretty good, so maybe I am being an idiot. 3 culture is good, and the GS points are also very good.

Move down, although it is a good wonder if you can get it. I usually start going into Patronage and you really, really reap the benefits of this later on.

A-

Temple of Artemis (Any): Long term for the most part. Has the added spice of cheaper ranged units, which are the type you want to build anyway. Cheap to build. I always want this. If there was a “smack you in your silly mouth” benefit to go along with this, it would have pushed it higher. Not quite enough sizzle for that.​

Great wonder long term, but never worth the opportunity cost on Deity. Move down.

Hanging Gardens (Any): It's a hospital, when hospitals would be incredible. Try not to imagine Nebuchadnezzar taking your temperature in a sexy nurse's outfit (You're welcome). Honestly, I don’t really know the difference between this and ToA. This one is probably better if you are going tall. A free garden is nice. All very refreshing.

This is one wonder I think is worth the opportunity cost, and really helps you snowball early. Also very useful if you don't have a river. And it's less contested in the new patch as fewer civs go for Tradition.

[Edit: Moved up]
Sistine Chapel (Culture): This is all slow build, under the hood stuff. But 25% culture in all cities is ALOT. And arts slots are the best slots. Generally useful, because culture is useful, and can be tricky to generate sometimes.

Agreed, great wonder.

Hagia Sophia (Any): So you get 3 faith. But you also get a free temple! That’s up to 5 faith. And a Great Prophet! You could even plant that, to get a level of faith that I can’t even calculate. All for a measly 300 hammers, your faith problems could be over! Order today.

Depends on your strategy, if you're really pushing faith then you don't need it, if you're not then there's no point in getting it, is too unlikely and too much of an opportunity cost. Move down.

Porcelain Tower (Any): This always seems like it is missing something. I always feel like I am just building a GS. The two GS points are also a real attraction here. I think I get so little out of the research agreement part, I tend to discount this more than I should. It is a little expensive, too. Don’t get me wrong, I generally build this thing. But I resent it.

You're right. Overrated. Move down.

Pyramids (Domination): GREAT for pillage-repair. Two additional workers are nice for domination, as you need a flood of workers to soak up bullets and get stuck in tank treads anyway. Liberty is also a strong domination tree. Also good for building roads everywhere, which can really help. Merely OK for everyone else. If not going domination, I don’t miss it one bit.

Agreed.

B+

[Edit: Moved Down]
Statue of Zeus (Domination): I hate attacking cities. They are so smug and hard to damage. Anything that makes that easier is good. Its cheap too. Though ideally you just capture it. In my (very) uninformed opinion, my favorite Domination wonder.​

Move down. Just build the units.

Chichen Itza (Any): Happiness is good. Culture is good. GE points are probably a wash. Golden ages, though, are very nice. Going with Persia or Brazil makes this even nicer. Strong stuff.

Nice wonder but you'll never get it, so not worth the opportunity cost unless you have an uber start.

[Edit: Moved this up]
Machu Picchu (Domination): Better for wide, and can potentially mean lots of gold. The faith benefit is nice, too. Its early and cheap. As pointed out, pretty useful for Domination. It comes early, when you really need the gold, and with connections everywhere, you can make a hefty sum. Also on the crossbow line, which is nice and accessible.

Excellent wonder for domination, ok for all victory types, I think this is probably in the right category.

Prora (Any): Confession time; I’ve never built this on Deity. A free policy alone probably makes it worth it, and depending on your game, the happiness effect could add up to a lot of smiley faces.

Great wonder if you have to go autocracy.

Eiffel Tower (Culture): I think I overrate the Eiffel Tower. And it is expensive. But twelve tourism means more GA’s and GW’s to bulb. The happiness is nice. GM points is slight drag. If you aren’t going culture victory, there isn’t a whole lot here, though.

Excellent for a cultural victory, probably not worth the opportunity cost for other VCs.

Great Mosque of Djenne (Any): Faith spreading seems alright, but evangelizing on Deity can be a pain sometimes. More importantly, this is going generate lot of faith. And you can still build a temple, unlike Hagia Sophia (where it is unlikely you can build a mosque). Faith monster.

You're very, very unlikely to get this (or want to go Piety) on Deity so move it down.

Parthenon (Culture): Early tourism just doesn’t seem all that important. Lots of culture, though. I like culture.

You'll never build it, not worth the opportunity cost. Down.

Borobudur (Any): Bunch of missionaries is a good way to start spreading your religion. Of course the AI is likely to quash your religion anyway. Still, you get 5 faith to take home with you.

Almost never worth the opportunity cost (see Hagia Sophia). Down.

Kremlin (Domination): Probably the worst of the ideology unique wonders. But if armor units are your path to victory, this would help a bunch. I feel that you would have got the bulk of your conquering done by this point, and I’ve never really used armor that much. I guess I am more into bombers and artillery. Free policy alone is again probably worth it.

Order is a great ideology, but basically all this gives you is a free SP. Probably down.

B

Forbidden Palace (Diplomatic): Extra delegates help you win. The unhappiness reduction is also sweet. I want this wonder. Still, each of these effects can be duplicated through other means.​

Decent wonder, but comes at a time when you are almost always building other things. Plus, it's fiercely contested usually. Probably down.

Pentagon (Domination): If you are late game conquering, cheap upgrades are nice. Hordes of units to upgrade might tax your financial resources.

Potentially the worst wonder in the game. Far too late to make a difference. Move right down.

Great Lighthouse (Domination): +1 sight for ships is definitely useful, but +1 movement is quite scary. Someone with more experience can probably tell me why this should be higher.

Probably not worth the opportunity cost unless you absolutely know you will be going navy domination.

B-

Colossus (Any): Bizarrely, I agonized over this entry the most. This should be a great wonder! Lots of gold, which is fine. But the trade route is the main attraction here, and the cargo ship. (The Great Merchant points this early are actually a pain.) This is an interesting case where a Wonder is ruined by just being one or two tiers too advanced on the tech tree. As is, I can just replicate this by researching cargo ships and a tech that gets me another trade route at a much cheaper cost. And won't take me way off my general tech path. No one beelines iron working, because swordsmen don't work all that well in Deity. Going crossbow misses it too.​

Great wonder, but you'll hardly ever get it on Deity, unless you beeline it, which has certain opportunity costs.

Brandenburg Gate (Domination): XP for units with GS points and a Great General. That’s not bad. Still, as with all military based Wonders, I always think: Shouldn’t I just be building units? Maybe it is better for peaceful play, where GG’s are harder to come by.

But if you're going for peaceful play, you won't be at that tech. I guess it's fairly useful for later game dom victories, but probably too high.

Cristo Redentor (Any): This seems more powerful than it plays. Maybe because the effects are so under the hood, and comes relatively late. It is just so burdensome to build with its hammer count. More expensive than SoL, and it doesn’t have anything approaching that flash.

Way too high, massively overrated. Not worth the hammers and the opportunity cost. It comes too late to help you get important policies.

C+

Taj Mahal (Any): A smattering of happiness. And a golden age. I remain limp. I’ve seen good players build this thing, so there is probably some value here. Better for Persia, too. Still, I wish there was one more component to this thing.​

I'd say this was too high too, the opportunity cost of investing in this when there are other important things to do are too high.

Neuschanwantsomething (Any): I confess, I build this thing more than I am comfortable admitting. I think I settle near mountains a great deal, and it is often available. The last women at the bar, and all, you know? Don’t judge me. Anyway, in terms of actual effects you get lots of gold, culture, and happiness, and even more with castles. OK if you are turtling with defenses.

Only build this at the end if you've got nothing else to do. Move down.

Louvre (Culture): I don’t often go Exploration, but when I do, I build the Louvre. Uses artifacts for theming, which is nice. Better than Uffizi or GT.

Only useful if you're going CV, but most of the time isn't necessary, and comes at the huge cost of opening Exploration. Probably too high.

[Edit:Moved this up]
Great Wall (Domination): The slowing effect is pretty good. Probably better captured then built, and it is a bummer that it eventually gives out. Sucks when the AI builds it, too. Maybe needs to go higher?

Maybe even lower, you'll be stealing these wonders if you're going domination, and it's definitely not on the peacemongers pass.

Mausoleum of Halicarnassus (Any): Problem is, gold is better early, when you aren’t really expending that many great people. Better if you are using lots of Great Prophets, maybe?

Too high. A good wonder, actually, if you've got a few quarries around, but there are usually better things to build at that time.

C

Uffizi (Culture): Uffizi is the aesthetics policy branch incarnate. Yeah, you should probably take it for a peaceful CV. But you don’t like it. Building the Uffizi is like eating your vegetables. Only in this case, there are a bunch of people madly scrambling for the plate of vegetables like it’s a stripper covered in cocaine. You think to yourself “is this really worth it?” but you are already swinging a barstool at some guy’s head, because, hell, you assume the crowd knows something you don’t. And you end up with a plate of steamed beets. Or worse, crumpled in a corner somewhere with a concussion and a punctured lung, with no beets. Ultimately, it’s just a building to fill with great works. And a great artist which increases your artist count.​

A key wonder if you want a peaceful CV, otherwise pretty pointless. You probably have it about right.

Terracotta Army (Domination): Double your crappy army! Would have been nice to help with maintenance. Haven’t ever built this myself, and I wonder (again) whether it outweighs just building units. Does this replicate experience? Would it matter at this stage if it did?

Would be in my bottom tier. Hammers aren't worth it, you could probably build a better army without it.

Globe Theater (Culture): Essentially a cheaper and smaller Uffizi (for writers!). But writing slots are much less useful. The writer itself is nice.

Crap wonder, don't build it, even for CVs. Move down.

[Edit: Moved way down]
Stonehenge (Any): I had this at rank "A." I wanted to put it higher. Five faith so early seems incredible. You are already 1/10 of your way to a decent Faith output. It can get you a pantheon and religion. The picture that goes with it looks really cool. But beelining something from turn 0 brings with it costs that simply don't exist at other points in the game, and perhaps it is practical for this list to reflect this special circumstance. A shame.

Never worth the opportunity cost. Move down.

C-

Himeji Castle (Domination): Defensive, with GE points. The defense effects seem pretty good, but the GE points don’t really feed into anything. If you are fighting everywhere because you are sniping capitals, this could be useful.​

If you're going domination, you should be attacking, and winning. I don't know, maybe move down.

Angkor Watt (Any): Cheaper tiles and faster expansion? I… guess so. Maybe on a larger than standard map, if you were trying to fill space or something? Skip.

One of the worst. Not even worth being on the list.

Alhambra (Domination?): Percentage increase in culture, with training stuff. I’m not really sure what to make of this. The choice is always taken out of my hands, because the AI builds this a lot.

Potentially good wonder, but you can never get it. Not worth the opportunity cost of beelining.

[Edit: Moved up, changed victory condition]
Broadway(Any BUT Culture): A culture producing Wonder for you, and gives you music slots so you don't need opera houses. MUCH WORSE SCORE FOR CULTURE VICTORY, AND IS PROBABLY A TRAP. Best to save your musicians for bombs.

Only build this when you don't have anything to build and you want to deny it to the AIs, if you're going to CV. Worthless in itself, I'd move it down.

[Edit: Moved down]
Great Library (Science): Yes, I know you can’t get it. But if you could, it seems OK. The main attraction is probably the early GS points, followed by the +3 beakers. But even early game, those beakers are replaceable. Free library is nice. The free tech is actually not that great early on, but it is a perk (the problem is that you usually need the ability to DO things with your tech, before researching it is actually useful). The slots in writing are not that useful; writing slots are a dime a dozen in this game, and given the usefulness of bulbing writers, are rarely filled to capacity for me. All together, it is an OK package as a super library. What is an early GS point worth? Probably quite a bit. Edit: I've decided to take into account the cost of beelining a Wonder from turn 0 as a special case. Too much opportunity cost. Maybe this should be even lower.

Agreed, it should be lower. I've actually got it quite a few times and it's not worth it. You get a free tech, let's say philosophy, but you miss out on so many other important things you need to be doing. Now I wouldn't build it even if I could, unless in a ridiculously uber start.

​

D+

You are making up for past mistakes if you are building these

Sydney Opera House (Culture): Policies are great, so if you are in the endgame that requires something, and you haven’t got it yet, maybe this will save your plan. Still, comes too late for the rest of it to have meaning. Music slots are terrible for CV, and this is in the CV line of tech. If it came with a musician, that would actually be something. Hell, even if it came with a pre-built great work of music. Late game wonders should come with great people more often.

Not particularly important, but the SP can be very nice in the late game if you can build it. Not game breaking, but I'd potentially move it up.

Great Firewall (Any): Like the analog Great Wall, more important in an opponent’s hands than your own. Can throw a wrench in your cultural victory if you are lagging. Enemy spies stealing your tech shouldn’t have a huge impact at this point, and opponents probably shouldn’t have internet before you win.

Important to try for this wonder if you are going for a cultural victory and there are runaways. But you more than often won't get it, so yeah, you've probably got it right.

CN Tower (Culture): If you beelining internet, maybe you could build it so you don’t have to build broadcasting towers in all your cities if you are doing a Liberty/Freedom cultural victory with tons of cities or something. Still, probably better to have built towers earlier. The happiness and population is probably moot at this late date.

Almost never useful for you, but again it's important to build in a CV to deny a runaway a lot of culture. Maybe move up.

F

Not good investments. They may actually hamper you.

Red Fort (Any): Defense buildings… with GS points. OK. That at least makes sense to harden a turtling victory. Still, does anyone build this thing? There has to be better ways to spend your hammers. I refuse to believe otherwise.​

You're probably right, I've never built it.​

 

[nickytootricky]

I think what's needed (echoing what I said on consentient's recent domination civ tier list) is more specialised tier lists.

I'm of the opinion that you should be going for certain VCs, and then falling back if necessary on science or diplomacy.

I am happy to write a specific tier list for Deity CVs.

Maybe consentient could do one for domination (of course map types will take on more importance as well, but it's better than the general mess we have at the minute, which is basically meaningless. At the minute there's just too much "good but in this situation", "bad unless in this situation", so it's pretty pointless. Surely the tier lists should be there for newer and more experienced players to hone their skills at particular strategies.

 

[Evening gonad]

First off, thanks to everyone for the tremendous response.

@nickytootricky

Thanks for the time you put into your reply!

I think I am beginning to agree with you (and other commenters) about the Pentagon and Hagia Sophia, and am inclined to drop them, as well as Zeus, further.

I am comfortable with Hubble being rated as very, very good. I understand the argument about it speeding up victory. However, it speeds up victory a LOT. Also, I have gotten in races with runaway Seijong over launch, and this has been the deciding factor, for and against me. Given that is one of ways that Deity beats players, constructing an entire strategy around Hubble is the way to go, and I can't see moving it down as a result.

Big Ben is also good for a science strategy that relies heavily on purchasing, it really seems to cut down on turns in my games!

I think several of the points where you suggest movement goes with the chance of getting the Wonder, and I am still resistant to weighting that too heavily. (Perhaps I might want to try a Chichen Itza gambit?) I am making an exception for stuff where the gambits have been tried repeatedly and failed (Stonehenge and Great Library). The list you suggest would be a slightly different list that might be described as more useful and less exploratory.

I think what's needed (echoing what I said on consentient's recent domination civ tier list) is more specialised tier lists.

That isn't a bad idea, and I would like to see those lists. However, I'm not sure that this project is completely hopeless either. I understand, for example, that Machu Piccu is best for dom, and it will be rated very high for that type of attempt. Other VC's will just have to deal with that.

 

[Evening gonad]

Also considering moving down Halicanarssus and Great Wall, as you suggest.

 

[consentient]

I think what's needed (echoing what I said on consentient's recent domination civ tier list) is more specialised tier lists.

I'm of the opinion that you should be going for certain VCs, and then falling back if necessary on science or diplomacy.

I am happy to write a specific tier list for Deity CVs.

Maybe consentient could do one for domination (of course map types will take on more importance as well, but it's better than the general mess we have at the minute, which is basically meaningless. At the minute there's just too much "good but in this situation", "bad unless in this situation", so it's pretty pointless. Surely the tier lists should be there for newer and more experienced players to hone their skills at particular strategies.

Firstly, I'm not the best person to write any list. I am not even a great player. My own Tier list was a possible list. It's not intended to be definitive, it was just intended to be based on a different system of measuring (the Neutrals) than previous lists I'd seen.

Secondly, I intended my list to be balanced, but to show that conquest is hugely powerful. In the Russia game which I took a screenshot from, there was really no advantage put my way, and I still spanked the map. Great dirt and favourable AIs means that a CV will be easier, but it will be easier still if you conquer the potential runaways and take their wonders and GWs.

Lastly, I think a Tier list just for domination would be really hard because there is so much variation in early/mid/late strength. On Pangaea then Arabia and The Huns are crazy broken, but on Continents, England start to push ahead, for example.

So if someone wants to make a Domination tier list, they should feel free, but I advise against it, and I think that it would only have about 10 or 15 civs on there, because the others have no palpable advantages.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I guess there's one thing to consider with Broadway that crossed my mind just now, it comes with Great Musician. While it's obviously not the Porcelain Tower situation, it's somewhat similar because you can theoretically get that one Musician you need to wrap up the win that would otherwise take around 20 more turns

 

[Evening gonad]

Broadway just comes way too early for that, though. You aren't close to the musician bombing phase, so all you do is waste 100 great musician points for a Great Work. It's OK if you are pursuing a non-Culture VC, and just want to generate culture, but that has to be sub-optimal.