BoG 01- American Pride
- Thread starter bewareofgnomes
- Start date
bewareofgnomes
Back Again
well, this was the most eventful turn yet. im thinking maybe coast to the modern agfes and have a superpower showdown.
Preturn -notta
Turn 1 - notta
Turn 2 -atlant to granry, vetoable
Turn 3 -notta
Turn 4 -notta
Turn 5 -NY - settler>settler. Settler sent to orange dot. New Orleans founded. Ready up suicide galley. I just guessed where som shallo waters are.
Turn 6 -fortified galley in philly. I SEE LAND!!!! contact rome, buy contact with germany, get mysticsm and contacts w/ iro and mongols off bizzy. Get code of laws for contact with zulu. Get HBR of mongols for contact and map. Sell contact with korea for almost nothing. Looks like we are par with everyone else and germany is in the lead.(behind us of course)o and were up on mathematics
Turn 7 -baltimore founded
Turn 8 -currency done, philosophy in 4. Trade currency around for world map and some gold. Collusas finished, start barracks. They have TONS of land, though most of it is forest. This is really a f*cked up game
Turn 9 -notta
Turn 10 -rome build pyramids
Preturn -notta
Turn 1 - notta
Turn 2 -atlant to granry, vetoable
Turn 3 -notta
Turn 4 -notta
Turn 5 -NY - settler>settler. Settler sent to orange dot. New Orleans founded. Ready up suicide galley. I just guessed where som shallo waters are.
Turn 6 -fortified galley in philly. I SEE LAND!!!! contact rome, buy contact with germany, get mysticsm and contacts w/ iro and mongols off bizzy. Get code of laws for contact with zulu. Get HBR of mongols for contact and map. Sell contact with korea for almost nothing. Looks like we are par with everyone else and germany is in the lead.(behind us of course)o and were up on mathematics
Turn 7 -baltimore founded
Turn 8 -currency done, philosophy in 4. Trade currency around for world map and some gold. Collusas finished, start barracks. They have TONS of land, though most of it is forest. This is really a f*cked up game
Turn 9 -notta
Turn 10 -rome build pyramids
bewareofgnomes
Back Again
Bam-Bam
Hammerhead
This is a VERY strange game! 
Got it.
Got it.
You traded a monopoly tech for world maps? You should have waited for them to research something. We could have gotten multiple techs out of that. I also don't agree with selling contact to Korea and Zulu. Better if we kill them without the world knowing. It also gives them devalued techs to buy and could make them harder to kill.
Good job making contact with Rome though.
bewareofgnomes
Back Again
yah, im not very good at trading, but i thought that they wer going to finish currency soon. the world maps did help. This doesnt seem like a standard game because of all the room that everyone has, asides from zulu, mongolia, and korea. I had to sell the contacts to get 2 techs. i figured it was worth it.
You said they didn't have math, so they couldn't have been researching currency anytime soon. That's why I researched currency in the first place, it's a tech the AI doesn't go for until really late. Most likely they would have researched construction, literature, code of laws, philosophy first and it would have been a great trading tool to get those and we could have gotten the world map at the same time. It's really no big deal. We're still in very good shape.
As for trading contacts between islands, it's generally not a good idea, even if it helps you get a couple techs. The reason for this is the devaluation of techs the more civ's that know it. For example, say the entire Roman continent knows construction. Neither the Zulu nor the Koreans know it though. We can buy it from the Roman continent real cheap because as far as they know every civ has it except us. We can then sell it to the Zulu continent for extremely high prices since to them it's a monopoly tech. But if they had contact with the other continent it would be valued really low since a lot of civ's already knew it. Basically by holding off on selling contacts between islands we can keep techs really cheap for us and expensive for everyone else.
There is one case where you want to sell contacts between islands, and that's if you're trying to go for a real fast space race or diplomatic victory. It will speed up the AI research and in turn speed yours up too.
As for trading contacts between islands, it's generally not a good idea, even if it helps you get a couple techs. The reason for this is the devaluation of techs the more civ's that know it. For example, say the entire Roman continent knows construction. Neither the Zulu nor the Koreans know it though. We can buy it from the Roman continent real cheap because as far as they know every civ has it except us. We can then sell it to the Zulu continent for extremely high prices since to them it's a monopoly tech. But if they had contact with the other continent it would be valued really low since a lot of civ's already knew it. Basically by holding off on selling contacts between islands we can keep techs really cheap for us and expensive for everyone else.
There is one case where you want to sell contacts between islands, and that's if you're trying to go for a real fast space race or diplomatic victory. It will speed up the AI research and in turn speed yours up too.
We should start thinking about what victory condition we should go for.
Personally I'd like to go for a peaceful approach (not counting wiping out Korea and the Zulus). Most of my recent games have been domination-type and I'm kind of bored of those. I'd like to see how fast we can launch our spaceship.
Anyway place your vote and reasoning. We can go with the majority vote or whatever BoG decides.
Personally I'd like to go for a peaceful approach (not counting wiping out Korea and the Zulus). Most of my recent games have been domination-type and I'm kind of bored of those. I'd like to see how fast we can launch our spaceship.
Anyway place your vote and reasoning. We can go with the majority vote or whatever BoG decides.
Bam-Bam
Hammerhead
Agree--on both. This setup lends itself to spaceship or diplo--ONCE we wipe the map with the Koreans and the Zulu.
My current game will be a domination--also in a AW SG, and the latest epic is AW. I think those will be enough
for me.Also non-panegea wars are a pain in the butt logistically. I haven't looked at the save, but I do not think that will change much.
Agree with Shillen on the trading and contact pointers--in general, the longer hording of contacts in this type of game mean more brokering opportunities--unless you LIKE checking the diplo screen EVERY turn...
bewareofgnomes
Back Again
thanks for the tips. i am fairly new at civ 3, but in the future i wont sell contacts. I think we should go for a modern age conquest or spaceship launch if we cant conquer. spaceship would be too easy IMHO
Conquest would be quite easy too. We'll kill the zulus and koreans with no trouble at all since they're so weak. That leaves only 4 civ's and we'll have 2 continents to ourselves. But it's your game so I wouldn't mind at all if you really want to conquer everybody.
Keep in mind that nothing is ever set in stone. I wouldn't say things like "I won't sell contacts in the future." Just try to understand the reasoning I gave and in a future game apply that reasoning to the situation. Then you can decide what the best course of action is. I definitely would not advise you to never sell contacts. If both civ's are on your continent then you know they're going to meet up eventually anyway, then you might as well benefit from selling the contact. But even on a single continent it's not always the case that you want to sell the contact. Imagine if you were on a long strip of land, one civ was on one end, another on the other end, and you were in the middle. Most likely the other two civ's aren't going to meet each other for a while so you should hold onto the contact and use the advantage that gives you. Try to learn concepts and not rules.
Sorry I'm being so critical, but I'm just trying to help.
Keep in mind that nothing is ever set in stone. I wouldn't say things like "I won't sell contacts in the future." Just try to understand the reasoning I gave and in a future game apply that reasoning to the situation. Then you can decide what the best course of action is. I definitely would not advise you to never sell contacts. If both civ's are on your continent then you know they're going to meet up eventually anyway, then you might as well benefit from selling the contact. But even on a single continent it's not always the case that you want to sell the contact. Imagine if you were on a long strip of land, one civ was on one end, another on the other end, and you were in the middle. Most likely the other two civ's aren't going to meet each other for a while so you should hold onto the contact and use the advantage that gives you. Try to learn concepts and not rules.
Sorry I'm being so critical, but I'm just trying to help.
Bam-Bam
Hammerhead
Good gameplay points all, Shillen. BoG, I think the more I read other SG threads, and read the exploits of the successful diety players here--there are no absolutes...other than think ahead and do not blindly press "end turn". The great thing about SGs is that you get more than one view, and invariably that leads to improved gameplay. I also find that 10-20 turns per player is freeing--I can MM the heck out of cities, workers, etc.--knowing that my teammates are watching--AND that I do not have to do this forever. I have been trying to apply this to solo play--chewing off managable pieces of the game at a time--and reviewing the big picture with every load like a start of a succession game turn. This greatly helps eliminate the 
I tend to develop as I may be rushing for something (invasion, the next age, wonder, etc.).
Also, some of the best succession games I have seen here resulted from LOTS of discussions about strategies, tactics, and every situation in general. This is what makes these teams so powerful.
@ Victory type: Conquest would work too--haven't done that in a while---I am usually a domination-type, but all those corrupt cities can be a pain.
I hope to have my turn complete and the save posted tonight.
I tend to develop as I may be rushing for something (invasion, the next age, wonder, etc.).Also, some of the best succession games I have seen here resulted from LOTS of discussions about strategies, tactics, and every situation in general. This is what makes these teams so powerful.
@ Victory type: Conquest would work too--haven't done that in a while---I am usually a domination-type, but all those corrupt cities can be a pain.
I hope to have my turn complete and the save posted tonight.
bewareofgnomes
Back Again
well i meant when i can keep the two civs from meeting for a while, i wont sell the contact. I have never won a conquest, but i have won every other type becaus i usually will get domination before i can finsh wrapping them up. if anyting, i just want to practice combined arms tactics in the artillery and modern ages.
In my solo games I usually end up with all players furious with me for reasons unknown. After that, domination is usually the easiest course.
( For some reason I seem to have an aversion to razings. )
I will try to go along with you more experienced players outlines as best I can.
Grimjack
( For some reason I seem to have an aversion to razings. )
I will try to go along with you more experienced players outlines as best I can.
Grimjack
Bam-Bam
Hammerhead
Here is the turn-by-turn. Since I am at work, and I forgot to grab the save, the save will be up @ 5:30 EDT today
Pre-turn
Fire musicians.
MM DC and slider to 10% lux, scientist in DC, 50% science; Philo in 2 14 gpt, DC sword in 3.
MM Buffalo for growth in 6 vice 9; temple still in 20.
MM NY for settler in 8 vice 15, it's about to grow
Veto temple in SanFran--this is a corrupt city w/1 spt change to galley due in 1.
WTH are all these workers doing so far from our core?!?! Atlanta will end up working unimproved tiles soon!
Some of these workers are *not* in our territory---wait, ok there is a settler there. Ok, I am calm now--we can probably handle this given that we are still expanding and are industrious. If that were not the case, this would be some serious ![[pimp]](/images/smilies/pimp.gif "Pimp [pimp]")
. I will be improving 1-3 tiles near new cities and sending the rest
of the workers back to the core cities.
Temple vetoed in Miami--changed to spear--mp get happiness faster and quick border expansion not yet needed.
Courthouse whipped in Chicago
Seattle set up for whip-change-whip to Courthouse--wheat is not online yet, and we need to get this city working on the FP.
Turn 1--690 BC
Chicago courthouse >> temple
Phili galley >> temple (to get whale)
Miami spear >> temple
MM Seattle for growth in 6
Veto rax in St. Louis for spear
Galleys sent to DC for invasion force
Veto rax in Detroit for spear
Turn 2--670 BC
Learn Philosophy >> Literature in 6 @ 7gpt deficit research not warranted for 1 turn
Boston rax >> sword in 3
MM DC for commerce 1 scientist, and 10 spt (need to keep DC and Boston @ 10 net spt...)
Denver founded on orange dot >> spear
Spotted more by SanFran WHY ARE WE MINING GAME ON GRASSLAND??? This is a 4 food/turn tile when irrigated! Mine being flooded
Turn 3--650 BC
DC sword >> sword
Atlanta sword >> temple (DC and Boston give 6 sword in 9; Atlanta 1 in 8--not worth it) Temple opens up more floodplains on expansion
SanFran galley >> courthouse (will use whip-change-whip)
Atlanta sword stays for MP (for now)
Embassy established in Berlin: size 4, 8 spt; Bis is at 70% sci. Berlin has horses and a market & xtra furs. Bis is the one who killed the Aztecs.
Turn 4--630 BC
cat in SanFran--change to Rax for next whip up to courthouse
Germans/Iro/Mongols have tech parity
Rome lacks Philosopy
Embassy in Rome: Size 4, 9 spt; Pyramids, 100% sci, horses, settler in production
Turn 5--610 BC
Boston sword >> sword
New Orleans warrior >> warrior
rax in SanFran change to courthouse
whipped granery in Seattle change to courthouse
Turn 6--590 BC
DC sword >> sword
NY settler >> worker
New Orleans warrior >> granery (should whip)
Embassy with Mongols
Turn 7--570 BC
Baltimore warrior >> granery (may want to whip-switch-whip to courthouse)
Dial back slider to 50% sci; Lit due in 1 18 gpt
Nada on diplo
Turn 8--550 BC
Lit learned >> Republic due in 14 @ 1 gpt--this is my best guess--AI usually go for constr.
NY worker >> worker
Boston sword >> sword
Seattle riots (ARRGH) (forgot about the whip effects) taxman hired
Detroit spear >> library
Turn 9--530 BC
DC sword >> sword
Taxmen hired in Chicago and SanFran (whip effects)
IT--Germans begin Great Library--hmmm, I think my choice to get Lit. may have been weed
Turn 10--510 BC
NY worker >> settler (for soon to be conquered areas)
Embassy with Iro--Salamanca has two MINED plains cows
That's it with the embassies--no need to spend the coins on the soon-dead Koreans and Zulu
Cincinnati founded on red dot >> warrior
Look at lux slider vs. specialists in DC/Chicago/SanFran/Seattle--keep like it is to stay at +2gpt vice -6gpt.
Thoughts:
Lit can be traded to Mongols for WM and 13g
9 vet swords loaded on galleys in DC
1 vet sword in Boston on MP
1 Vet sword in Atlanta on MP
Suggest that the next leader attack Korea at once w/7 sword and send in the rest after Korea is conquered. First great leader should be sent to Seattle to rush FP. Seoul should be razed--settle on coastal desert next to grassland. Will look at a dotmap for conquered isle tonight.
Pre-turn
Fire musicians.
MM DC and slider to 10% lux, scientist in DC, 50% science; Philo in 2 14 gpt, DC sword in 3.
MM Buffalo for growth in 6 vice 9; temple still in 20.
MM NY for settler in 8 vice 15, it's about to grow
Veto temple in SanFran--this is a corrupt city w/1 spt change to galley due in 1.
WTH are all these workers doing so far from our core?!?! Atlanta will end up working unimproved tiles soon!
Some of these workers are *not* in our territory---wait, ok there is a settler there. Ok, I am calm now--we can probably handle this given that we are still expanding and are industrious. If that were not the case, this would be some serious . I will be improving 1-3 tiles near new cities and sending the rest of the workers back to the core cities.
Temple vetoed in Miami--changed to spear--mp get happiness faster and quick border expansion not yet needed.
Courthouse whipped in Chicago
Seattle set up for whip-change-whip to Courthouse--wheat is not online yet, and we need to get this city working on the FP.
Turn 1--690 BC
Chicago courthouse >> temple
Phili galley >> temple (to get whale)
Miami spear >> temple
MM Seattle for growth in 6
Veto rax in St. Louis for spear
Galleys sent to DC for invasion force
Veto rax in Detroit for spear
Turn 2--670 BC
Learn Philosophy >> Literature in 6 @ 7gpt deficit research not warranted for 1 turn
Boston rax >> sword in 3
MM DC for commerce 1 scientist, and 10 spt (need to keep DC and Boston @ 10 net spt...)
Denver founded on orange dot >> spear
Spotted more
by SanFran WHY ARE WE MINING GAME ON GRASSLAND??? This is a 4 food/turn tile when irrigated! Mine being floodedTurn 3--650 BC
DC sword >> sword
Atlanta sword >> temple (DC and Boston give 6 sword in 9; Atlanta 1 in 8--not worth it) Temple opens up more floodplains on expansion
SanFran galley >> courthouse (will use whip-change-whip)
Atlanta sword stays for MP (for now)
Embassy established in Berlin: size 4, 8 spt; Bis is at 70% sci. Berlin has horses and a market & xtra furs. Bis is the one who killed the Aztecs.
Turn 4--630 BC
cat in SanFran--change to Rax for next whip up to courthouseGermans/Iro/Mongols have tech parity
Rome lacks Philosopy
Embassy in Rome: Size 4, 9 spt; Pyramids, 100% sci, horses, settler in production
Turn 5--610 BC
Boston sword >> sword
New Orleans warrior >> warrior
rax in SanFran change to courthousewhipped granery in Seattle change to courthouse
Turn 6--590 BC
DC sword >> sword
NY settler >> worker
New Orleans warrior >> granery (should whip)
Embassy with Mongols
Turn 7--570 BC
Baltimore warrior >> granery (may want to whip-switch-whip to courthouse)
Dial back slider to 50% sci; Lit due in 1 18 gpt
Nada on diplo
Turn 8--550 BC
Lit learned >> Republic due in 14 @ 1 gpt--this is my best guess--AI usually go for constr.
NY worker >> worker
Boston sword >> sword
Seattle riots (ARRGH)
(forgot about the whip effects) taxman hiredDetroit spear >> library
Turn 9--530 BC
DC sword >> sword
Taxmen hired in Chicago and SanFran (whip effects)
IT--Germans begin Great Library--hmmm, I think my choice to get Lit. may have been weed
Turn 10--510 BC
NY worker >> settler (for soon to be conquered areas)
Embassy with Iro--Salamanca has two MINED plains cows
That's it with the embassies--no need to spend the coins on the soon-dead Koreans and Zulu
Cincinnati founded on red dot >> warrior
Look at lux slider vs. specialists in DC/Chicago/SanFran/Seattle--keep like it is to stay at +2gpt vice -6gpt.
Thoughts:
Lit can be traded to Mongols for WM and 13g
9 vet swords loaded on galleys in DC
1 vet sword in Boston on MP
1 Vet sword in Atlanta on MP
Suggest that the next leader attack Korea at once w/7 sword and send in the rest after Korea is conquered. First great leader should be sent to Seattle to rush FP. Seoul should be razed--settle on coastal desert next to grassland. Will look at a dotmap for conquered isle tonight.
bewareofgnomes
Back Again
actually, if we get a GL, shoudlnt we move the Fp farther away since we wont have to build it. also, sorry about the worker management. it was late and i was trying to fifnish, but since were industious well be ok.
Stormrider
Civ Journeyman
Who is up next?
Stormrider
Stormrider
Bam-Bam
Hammerhead
Hmmm--yes, with a GL we might want to rush the FP in New Orleans vice Seattle.
@ BoG--ok on the workers...I just would only send 1-2 to a new city--not 4 each--concentrating on food improvements, because shields and commerce don't do much for corrupt cities.
I am a nazi about working unimproved tiles in core--that is that must be avoided.
Shillen
Bewareofgnomes
Bam-Bam
(LordMongoose) (MIA) autoskip until we hear from him
Stormrider <==== UP
Grimjack <==== ON DECK
Save will be posted by ~ 6:00 pm EDT
@ BoG--ok on the workers...I just would only send 1-2 to a new city--not 4 each--concentrating on food improvements, because shields and commerce don't do much for corrupt cities.
I am a nazi about working unimproved tiles in core--that is
that must be avoided.Shillen
Bewareofgnomes
Bam-Bam
(LordMongoose) (MIA) autoskip until we hear from him
Stormrider <==== UP
Grimjack <==== ON DECK
Save will be posted by ~ 6:00 pm EDT
bewareofgnomes
Back Again
so we are going to try to take out korea and zulu now? we have to be careful to try not to trigger a zulu golden age.
Grr typed up a nice long post, hit reply and got page not found error, hit back and my message was gone. 
Let's see if I can remember what I wrote.
Moving FP to New Orleans if we get a leader sounds good. You better kill off the Zulus and Korea before it comes back around to me though because I never get leaders with swordsmen.
Why are you building spearman everywhere, especially by foregoing a barracks? Do you think we'll be attacked anytime soon? I don't think we should be building regular units when we don't need those units anytime soon. They're also expensive to build at this point in the game. The military police won't even help much because we'll be a republic soon anyway.
I was building temples in corrupt cities because they were corrupt. It was either workers or temples for culture/score and we had plenty of workers IMO. This was before code of laws came around though so BoG probably just didn't notice to change them to courthouses instead. I would have probably changed San Fran to a courthouse too instead of a galley. That city is very close to washington and we would probably notice a huge benefit from a courthouse. But if you needed a galley then that's fine.
About workers...not only do you need to get all core cities improved first, but don't stack them in the ancient age! Sometimes stacking a worker and a slave is fine because of rounding, you can get a little more efficiency, but stacks of 3 or more are very inefficient. A stack of 3 workers can get a single tile done a little quicker, but they will get 3 tiles done a lot slower. So unless there's a tile that direly needs improvement, don't stack them. Later on when you have a full road system in place then stacking workers is fine because you don't waste a move between improvements. You can move and improve on the same turn. So when building railroads and cleaning pollution then stacking them is fine.
Ok copied before I hit reply. :crosses his fingers:
Let's see if I can remember what I wrote.Moving FP to New Orleans if we get a leader sounds good. You better kill off the Zulus and Korea before it comes back around to me though because I never get leaders with swordsmen.
Why are you building spearman everywhere, especially by foregoing a barracks? Do you think we'll be attacked anytime soon? I don't think we should be building regular units when we don't need those units anytime soon. They're also expensive to build at this point in the game. The military police won't even help much because we'll be a republic soon anyway.
I was building temples in corrupt cities because they were corrupt. It was either workers or temples for culture/score and we had plenty of workers IMO. This was before code of laws came around though so BoG probably just didn't notice to change them to courthouses instead. I would have probably changed San Fran to a courthouse too instead of a galley. That city is very close to washington and we would probably notice a huge benefit from a courthouse. But if you needed a galley then that's fine.
About workers...not only do you need to get all core cities improved first, but don't stack them in the ancient age! Sometimes stacking a worker and a slave is fine because of rounding, you can get a little more efficiency, but stacks of 3 or more are very inefficient. A stack of 3 workers can get a single tile done a little quicker, but they will get 3 tiles done a lot slower. So unless there's a tile that direly needs improvement, don't stack them. Later on when you have a full road system in place then stacking workers is fine because you don't waste a move between improvements. You can move and improve on the same turn. So when building railroads and cleaning pollution then stacking them is fine.
Ok copied before I hit reply. :crosses his fingers:
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