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Border expansion points

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by Wolf2911, Aug 22, 2017.

?

Are you in favor of the introduction of border expansion points?

  1. Yes, i think border expansion points are a good idea

    42.9%
  2. No, i like the border expansion with culture

    57.1%
  1. Wolf2911

    Wolf2911 Chieftain

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    Culture has become more and more important in Civilization and Civilization VI now has its own Civics-Tree.
    So i think it makes sense to introduce new points, which are only for the border expansion:
    > Border expansion points

    Cultural and military buildings would provide these point.
     
  2. Leyrann

    Leyrann Warlord

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    Would need a better name, but I very much agree about the idea. Culture is not even close to "the stuff you use to expand your borders" anymore.
     
  3. Hakan-i Cihan

    Hakan-i Cihan Chieftain

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    I would suggest a better name for the "border expansion points", it could be Influence. But culture still should be linked to it together with military strength of the city.
     
  4. Cerilis

    Cerilis Chieftain

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    Couldnt that be tied to the often suggested diplomatic district? Like, in it's earlier iterations, it would have some tribal meeting house, followed by a realm assembly hall and finally the embassies?
     
  5. Abraxis

    Abraxis Chieftain

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    Are we just complicating things just for fun or do we expect something out of this?
     
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  6. Cerilis

    Cerilis Chieftain

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    Good point. :p

    I will give it some more thought later.
     
  7. Abraxis

    Abraxis Chieftain

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    No, I like the idea of the diplomatic district. I was more responding to OP. I just don't really see the benefit of adding more currencies to the game if you're not also going to introduce new mechanics.

    Having it split off to be a part of this diplomatic system though could be interesting.
     
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  8. Wolf2911

    Wolf2911 Chieftain

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    I have to agree with all of you, i know that the name is not good, but Influence is a good idea for these points.
    And a diplomatic distrist sounds very interesting combined with a new diplomacy system.
     
  9. iamdanno

    iamdanno Chieftain

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    I think it should be determined by a number that includes military strength, population, and culture. I also think we should be able to choose where it expands.
     
  10. Cerilis

    Cerilis Chieftain

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    Okay, this is not letting me go. I thought a bit and this is what came out of it:

    Influence points - would basically replace culture for border expansion, which still happens automatically (mostly, more on that later). Further, they can be traded with other players, similar to gold (but only in lumps, not per turn). I could also imagine buying great persons/naturalists with it, like with faith, but I have no idea how that could impact balance.

    Border expansion - happens automatically whenever a city reaches a treshold with locally produced influence, as it is with culture now. However, any influence produced in a city also goes to the global counter, even if the borders expand. There will be ways to directly buy tiles with influence though (more later :p )

    Envoys - are produced by the global influence (of a civ). Again, this doesnt use up the stored influence, it's tresholds again. The tresholds might change with more advanced government forms, as it is now. Governments could also produce global influence for a civ, without it being bound to a city (or it being bound to the capital, just a spontanous thought).

    World Congress - depends on how it is implemented really, but I could imagine something like influence being used (this time used up for real) to back certain resolutions with more "power", making other civs (or city states?) sway in your direction. Or just additionally envoys for more city states? Well, however it is implemented.
    I personally would prefer a system where city states vote for themselves, but you can influence them. For example, a religious city state would be more inclined to vote for their religion as world religion, spending influence points on them could convince them otherwise though. Naturally, as several players can spend influence points, it can look like this:

    Example
    World Religion: Hinduism (Founder: India) There are other religions, but in this example, Greece hasnt found one, but also doesnt follow Hinduism. Russia has founded another religion and China follows Hinduism.
    India votes Yes - backs it with 400 Influence.
    Greece votes No - backs it with 100 Influence.
    Russia votes No - backs it with 300 Influence.
    China votes Yes - doesnt back it.
    Jerusalem doesnt follow Hinduism and thus would vote No. Let's say it's worth 200 Influence points to them. In other words, they back their own vote with 200 Influence. To sway them to Yes, one would have to overcome this 200 Influence, plus whatever all other players added to this. In this example, it would be the following:
    100(Greece) + 300 (Russia) + 200(Base) = 600
    So they are 600 points for No, while India only backs with 400 points, resulting in -200 for Yes. Jerusalem would stay No.
    Kabul, on the other hand, also doesnt follow Hinduism, but they are militaristic, so it's only worth 50 points to them. Again:
    100(Greece) + 300 (Russia) + 50(Base) = 450
    With the 400 points invested, India would still not be able to get the Yes out of Kabul (-50). But wait! Kabul is allied with China, and they voted Yes! Naturally, a suzerain should get a small bonus, let's say it's worth 100 points. Like this, the Yes vote would go up to 50 and thus sway Kabul's vote.
    So much for my little example. ^^"

    But where do Influence points actually come from!
    As already mentioned earlier, governments could provide some influence points, further, the palace could offer a nice starting amount for the capital. Apart from that, there would be buildings. I kinda don't think it should come from population, too.
    Monument - as the early culture isnt needed for border expansion anymore, the monument could provide a small baseline amount for new cities (the culture loss being offset by a slight increase of culture/population).
    Diplomatic District - Main infrastructure for producing influence. Baseline, it would provide, like, +1 Influence points and +1 for each adjacent district/city centre. (All numbers and names not final obviously :p ) Further, the district allows buying of tiles with Influence points in the city it is constructed in. This should be cheaper than buying them with gold btw. Also, delegations and embassies in other civs could yield influence.
    For the buildings, as mentioned in my first post, there could be:
    (Tribal) Meeting Hall - Next to offering more influence points, this building would allow either buying any tile (in range of a city and next to an already owned tile) in a 9 tile (or so, I feel like it should be greater than the usual 6) radius with Influence points, or just giving the ability to buy tiles with influence to any city in range. Personally, I think the former is more interesting.
    Realm Assembly - Makes buying tiles in the radius cheaper maybe? I haven't had a striking idea here yet. Could also swap the bonus for this and Meeting Hall around.
    Embassies - Could maybe allow buying tiles of city states within the radius. Much more expensive than buying regular tiles and cant buy tiles in a city's first ring. I'd also consider buying tiles of other civs, but I think that should be a mutual trade deal if anything, and thus would be very tedious to do for each tile on its own.

    I think the District and buildings should have their own leaf civics to unlock. District and Meeting Hall in early classical era. Realm Assembly in late Medieval and Embassies in early Industrial era for example. Accompanied by a fitting set of social policies (accustomed to the diplomatic and/or economy slot).

    So, what do you think of my, ahem, little brainstorming? ^^"

    Edit: Okay, I just had another idea for the Realm Assembly. Let's maybe give it the bonus from the Meeting Hall for now, to buy tiles with influence, and give the Meeting Hall the bonus of increased influence generation (or, cheaper automatic tiles) for cities in range, or on the continent, or in cities smaller than the city with the Diplomatic district. The latter is my favourite btw, as it kinda makes it a capital tool, at least for the early game.
    Edit2: Actually, no. The whole reason I gave the Meeting Hall the tile buying ability was to have an early use for Influence points before World Congress becomes a thing. So let's keep it there. Assembly given discounts can stay too, it makes it easy to store up some points for World Congress in mid game when you still want to continue buying tiles.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  11. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

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    It would certainly give you a much-needed extra reason to build encampments. Perhaps you could cash in influence points to convert nearby barbarians to your side. Or to gain envoys in city states within a certain range of one of your cities. Or to boost espionage activity in nearby rival cities.

    A new district type isn't warranted. It would be fun to have a type of currency that doesn't come overwhelmingly from one source.
     
  12. Pythakoreas

    Pythakoreas Chieftain

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    What's proposed sounds like we should have a "new currency" system for border growth. There's already a Culture system for that though...
    Food/Housing for Population and Influence Points/Envoys are already counterintuitive and confusing enough for beginners. We don't need a new one of those "two things that do one thing" systems. New currency is unwelcome given these myriads of "currencies" an apprentice has to face. Civilization 6 is already full of micromanagement.

    Edit: rewrote a few words to clarify
     
  13. Amrunril

    Amrunril Chieftain

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    I definitely think that culture determining border expansion seems like an historical artifact than an intentional design choice. I'm not sure what the best alternative is, though. A currency that does nothing but expand borders seems unnecessary, but it might be feasible to say culture, military and population expand borders without introducing a specific currency. I think @Cerilis's idea of linking growth to a new currency that also does something new is another potentially interesting solution that's worth discussing more. It would also be possible to do something entirely different, and currency-independent, like making borders expand adjacent to any tile that's been worked for a certain number of turns.

    (As a side note, I'd say that this thread should probably be in Ideas and Suggestions. I know it's a bit overrun with elimination threads at the moment, but this seems to me like exactly the sort of conversation it's intended for.)
     
  14. Cerilis

    Cerilis Chieftain

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    That's certainly an interesting idea.
     
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Should this be in ideas and suggestions?
    an over complication that removes one of the few reasons to push culture
     
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  16. masda_gib

    masda_gib Chieftain

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    I don't like the idea of border expansion points. Its just an additional very specific currency.
    Also, right now you can already do the encampment project to gain culture and expand your borders. Which is basicly military border growth... maybe not so efficient but doable. :)

    A future diplomatic currency 'influence' would maybe make sense if it has nice applications. Buy envoys, use forcefully in trade deals (like in BE, but as a nullying undeclinable request), do stuff in a world congress, ...
     
  17. Leyrann

    Leyrann Warlord

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    What about, instead of calling them influence points, calling them National Identity? This would mean that it would have to be different from the points that grant envoys and that it wouldn't have a use in the World Congress, but it would allow for a more Civ IV-like style of nationality and the culture wars, except this time it's clearer what it means because we're actually calling it National Identity. It would then be granted by the Palace, Monument, most wonders, etc. Gaining tiles would be more people gaining your "national identity" which really makes more sense than buying tiles (from who exactly?), and because it's no longer bound to culture it is also easier to adjust the values of national identity earned so that there'll be less need to buy tiles.

    Also, cottages/hamlets/villages/towns should be added in again and they should be a weak source of National Identity as well, though easier to flip.

    Yes, I miss these mechanics from Civ IV. How did you guess?
     
  18. masda_gib

    masda_gib Chieftain

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    But... what else is national identity if not your nations/empires/civs culture? Culture in civ is pretty much your civs identity. Without it your people run away towards any other nice country (with high tourism).
     
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  19. TomKQT

    TomKQT Chieftain

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    Yea, it's a bit funny how we went from "culture" with the goal to find a better word/currency for border expansion, and after a small circle we came back to "culture" again :)

    I don't think the border expansion in Civ5/6 is perfect, but it makes at least some sense and it works, so I wouldn't make huge changes to the system. The problem is - can this be made more realistic? How were borders formed in the real life in the past? When conquering an "empty" land (like Australia, America etc. - the areas that didn't belong to native people), how did this work?
    The most typical way of border shaping is by war or diplomacy (+ economy). In the game you cannot buy a land from other player and you cannot directly acquire tiles by war (only all tiles around one city). Maybe this ability would be nice, but I cannot really imagine a good implementation.
     
  20. Leyrann

    Leyrann Warlord

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    I see "culture" more as a general "things people do", which is unaligned with a specific civilization; otherwise, you should give each civ it's unique culture tree with their special cultural developments. If you just think about the civics you have, like Political Philosophy, Feudalism, Opera And Ballet, Social Media, etc, they're advancements in culture, but have nothing to do with which nation someone feels like he belongs to.
     

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