BOTM 04 Pregame Discussion

[JerichoHill]

Hmm

I challenge anyone to this gambit:

The REDCOATS ARE COMING!
You do not attack any CIV until you tech to RedCoats. Then, its Conquest time...with Redcoats and Cannons only.

 

[blastoidstalker]

What can we learn from this? My hunch:

1. 13 tiles almost surely makes this a significantly bigger landmass than a small island. What we see doesn't look like snaky continents or archipelago, so 13x5=65 tiles minimum in all likelihood. That's enough for a lot of cities.

2. Any AIs are probably farther away, because otherwise these barbs would be meaningless as a 'challenger handicap.' So we're either isolated on a reasonably large island or any AIs are pretty far away. This means worker stealing won't help early on, but a counter-attack is also unlikely. Fogbusting might be necessary after a while.

3. There are probably some AIs only reachable by sea.

4. Early game focus should be research, exploration (maybe with wb), and REX.

I think this may be right, but we may have barbs on one side and a civ on the other. It could also be barbs to the west and a civ on the other side of jungle to south.

 

[JerichoHill]

I do think this is an isolated start. I don't like where the settler starts but I can't see a reason for moving south that jumps out at me. There's at least Corn up north for a second city, and the Happiness cap won't be an issue. Growth will be as we won't be able to work the gold until AH

My plan? NE, N to the forest and settler there (will move the Warrior East first. Research agriculture while building a worker, then farm while researching mining. I should be able to work all 3 and grow decently well, plus I've settled on the coast. Ill also have 4 hills to work, so that's a mammoth capital city

 

[LowtherCastle]

For the challenger version, one way to go might be settle 1W or in place, build a worker and research agri>AH>mining. THe worker farms a river grass for 2 turns, then pastures pigs, and finishes the farm about the time mining is done and then mines both gold. At pop5, you can work both gold mines, and a plains hill mine for a lot of gold and a lot of hammers.

 

[MarkM]

I played a couple of test starts last night, coimapring three starting positioins
1) SW, SW
2) NE, NE
3) W

<snip> ...

To me I see SW SW and NE NE as the best options and my gut is saying SW SW.

Thanks for posting that. You have me thinking now. I confess when I was suggesting NE NE I wasn't comparing to SW SW, I was thinking of just W as that is what most were talking about (that or in place). I'm kinda surprised SW SW worked out so well. You get the extra hammer in city square I know, but it doesnbt' seem at first glance to me that there's any other advantage in the early game to going there ... I figured that because you need to research two techs before you could improve the pigs & no forests for chopping visible & jungle to south & there was nothing else around to improve to get you much before pigs. I'm still not sure I understand how you got the results you did going SW SW, but I'll definitely look closer.

Maybe it's the fact that the pig square, even unimproved, is still the best visible square to work? I guess you would build an initial worker & settler faster there, you get 7 total production towards worker/settler there, vs. likely (depending on what NE NE square is) only 6 for NE NE, and also one extra commerce. Maybe I was focusing too much on the attractiveness of NE NE for a size 3-3 city, and it's better to just think about size 1 cities. Hmm, food for thought, like I said -- thanks!

 

[Gnejs]

I don't see the 3 barbs as a handicap, but rather a benefit. They won't pillage for quite some time and won't attack cities for an even longer time. You can use them for XP if you want or you can leave them to dillute the archer pool later on. If there are AIs that start with scouts on our landmass, they may be killed by the barbs. The only possible handicap that I see is that they might allow the barb nation to know where you capital is as soon as they start spawning.

Otherwise, how are they a handicap?

Just one "word" for you:

UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY_LEMMING

There seems to be a whole bunch of scripts to select when adding units in the worldbuilder. But this particular one does just what it says. Confirmed it in a little test game I just made.

OTOH, we do get some free wins against the barbs on Prince level, right? My single defending warrior was able to survive against three Lemmings attacking on the same turn. City was on a hill though...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Just one "word" for you:

UNITAI_ATTACK_CITY_LEMMING

There seems to be a whole bunch of scripts to select when adding units in the worldbuilder. But this particular one does just what it says. Confirmed it in a little test game I just made.

OTOH, we do get some free wins against the barbs on Prince level, right? My single defending warrior was able to survive against three Lemmings attacking on the same turn. City was on a hill though...

Funny. I saw that possibility, but it didn't register... So did your test have them attacking before the 3-cities-per-player threshold?

 

[Gnejs]

Funny. I saw that possibility, but it didn't register... So did your test have them attacking before the 3-cities-per-player threshold?

I put them 6 tiles away and they attacked on T6...

 

[jesusin]

For the challenger version, one way to go might be settle 1W or in place, build a worker and research agri>AH>mining. THe worker farms a river grass for 2 turns, then pastures pigs, and finishes the farm about the time mining is done and then mines both gold. At pop5, you can work both gold mines, and a plains hill mine for a lot of gold and a lot of hammers.

Hmmm. Too standard a way of playing, considering it comes from @LC.

Aren't you willing to mine the poor pigs again?

 

[Markus5]

For the challenger version, one way to go might be settle 1W or in place, build a worker and research agri>AH>mining. The worker farms a river grass for 2 turns, then pastures pigs, and finishes the farm about the time mining is done and then mines both gold. At pop5, you can work both gold mines, and a plains hill mine for a lot of gold and a lot of hammers.

This is certainly the boring start I'd use. But, I don't see any reason not to go this way. There'd be little, if any, growth at pop5, if I did my quick math correctly. But, a little city overlap can be handy and the gold mines, 1 or 2, can be used by a neighbor while working other farms or cottages to grow up to whatever the cap is. I'm leaning to 1W for the start.

 

[Niklas]

The selected unit is the warrior. That is why it is not showing any blue rings.
Once you select the settler it will show blue rings if it find a spot to recommend. Some of those have been poor in the past.

Right, thanks, I didn't think about that (but I guess DS did!). And I rarely follow the advise of those rings, I was just wondering why there were none at all.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Hmmm. Too standard a way of playing, considering it comes from @LC.

Aren't you willing to mine the poor pigs again?

Darn. I was hoping I could trick you into doing something stupid, like pasturing the pigs, while I cleverly put a woodshed on the desert.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

You mean there is a good chance of having a rather small (british) island and space for maybe only one more city before we have to move to the continent.

Or... the French are just off the coast.

Or, let's see... Celts?

 

[Htadus]

What will your worker do in turn 18??? Hunt > AH should take about 28 turns if you are stuck at pop1 building worker(s). You could get mining in 10 turns (Challenger start I'm thinking) and start mining the gold, but you can't effectively use the gold until you get the pig (AH).

If I am starting with no techs and 3 barbs that reach me in 8 turns, I can't see any reason not to build warriors until pop2 then switch to worker. But I suck, so don't take this as advice, just jump in and tell me why my thinking is screwed up.

If I were to pick challenger, which I won't, I will build one or two warriors first. That should take about 9 turns at 2SW spot and about 12 to 21 turns at other spots. So that would be my choice again and I will not build the worker first. I would build 1 warrior and keep the original one around the nearby area and then build a worker or a settler on turn 35. Hopefully by this time the 3 barbs have already commited suicide. Now have both cities build a worker.

As for me, if I settle on 2SW tile, I will build a worker and likely go wheel, Ag and pot route. After the worker, I will let the city grow to 2 while building warriors. The Worker will build me a mine on pig and another mine to give me 9 hpt at pop 2. I will have the gold roaded and a mine built. Of course I might throw in BW or AH before pot. Likely AH. Well that is the current plan but once I start, I seem to forget all my planning.

I am already considering going 2SE first to see what may be hiding behind that hill over by yonder. Worst case is that I will be able to get back to the 2SW location to settle on turn 3 instead of 1. The reason is that I think the center of the land mass is to the east and that will also keep me away from the jungles and my second city will not be at a diagonal location (less maintanance). This will happen if I remember to do so at the time I usually get to play; after or near midnight.

PS. kcd_swede, it is always prefferable to get workers and settlers build as short of a time as possible since during this time your city is not growing. This is especially critical at the start.

 

[Ronnie1]

A lot of great discussion so far! I just can't get over that this start looks so NICE! DS has done something unexpected, but what? The Celts to the NE and Napoleon to the SE would not surprise me at all. It looks like a tailor made builder starting location. But if there are 2 psycho's near, getting building happy early could prove to be troublesome.

As to the Challenger save version, I have entered the unofficial gauntlet challenge the last 2 goes, and if I'm able to finish Botm3 by the deadline, I'm sure to prove that I am not worthy. So I doubt I'll try again, but I'd bet good money those 3 warriors will surely be in attack mode. IF I were to play the Challenger save, founding on a hill would certainly be in the game plan.

As to the game in general. I'm not usually a fan of wandering much looking for resources, but on Prince level, given what we can see, I'm tempted to take a look from at least 1 of the hills to the south just to try and get a feel for what DS may have cooked up for us! However, it just seems crazy to even consider moving away from 1 let alone 2 gold hills, when in most games, those are exactly the kind tiles I'd be wandering in search of.

 

[LowtherCastle]

England has neither plains hills nor gold. DS just got all mixed up, I think. This start seems to offer warmongering for those, research and builder for those types. Take your choice.

@Gnejs: On the lemming barbs. Let's see, it takes 11 turns to build a warrior and as many as 13 turns for the farthest to lemming himself...any challengers planning to build a worker first?

 

[kcd_swede]

England has neither plains hills nor gold. DS just got all mixed up, I think. This start seems to offer warmongering for those, research and builder for those types. Take your choice.

@Gnejs: On the lemming barbs. Let's see, it takes 11 turns to build a warrior and as many as 13 turns for the farthest to lemming himself...any challengers planning to build a worker first?

I am leaning away from the Challenger save right now. I don't think I am good enough to actually challenge for a medal of any kind. But if there is an interesting gauntlet I could change my mind.

BTW: you move 2 spaces to found your city, keep in mind you could be shortening that lemming by 2 turns.

 

[Ronnie1]

BTW: you move 2 spaces to found your city, keep in mind you could be shortening that lemming by 2 turns.

And your warrior is another 2 squares if you move SW, so he may not have time to be fully fortified!

I too am leaning towards the Contender save, some day, I may jump back to Challenger, but I'm hoping to garner at least 1 award before doing so.

 

[Bleys]

BTW: you move 2 spaces to found your city, keep in mind you could be shortening that lemming by 2 turns.

Actually, 4 turns, if you end up moving directly toward them (their 2 and your 2). If you moved up to the coast, it would put the water at your back, and the barbs would have to come from the E, W or S, but could indeed still be "closer" than settling in place.

I wont be taking the Challenger save though, so I am not worried about this. I do like the analysis that since the barbs are 13 tiles away, the island has to be at least 15 tiles one way or the other. I am also of the mind that we will not be isolated, because if we are, there is plenty of land to develop, and at Prince, it should be an easy win (my only current plan, winning one of these, LOL, I am not good at this format, yet).

I played a few games with Churchy, including the practice map someone posted, and tried a bunch of starts, so I think I have a solid plan to get myself established with a few cities, so hopefully I will actually finally win one of these. I actually didnt mind the "move up to the coast, build a Workboat even without a seafood resource", but I doubt thats what I will do. My 2nd city will likely be coastal (in the little corner to the NW with the Corn) and THAT city will build a workboat for exploration, regardless of whats there, 2 if there is a seafood tile.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Actually, 4 turns, if you end up moving directly toward them (their 2 and your 2).

I suppose the lemming won't start lemming until you've built the city.