BOTM 16 Pregame. Starts March 15, 2009

[kcd_swede]

If I were testing the Adventurer save, I'd test going Mng>BW and worker>wb. Why build a warrior or wb, when you have a good fish tile available to build the worker fast? Then use the worker to mine the plains hill while growing to pop2 and building the second wb. Then you're able to build the wb and the warrior much faster. When the worker is done with the mine, pre-mine the two forests.

And test whether it's better to wait 3t for the fish nets or do the clams imediately.

And while you are testing how to get the GLH, why don't you also test how many settlers/workers/galleys you can get for 200hammers. Just a thought.

 

[PaulisKhan]

You don't need to adopt the AP religion as your state religion to get the benefit.... You need to consider the diplomatic costs of these decisions first, however.

You are of course correct and I shouldn't have said "adopt". But certainly an effort should be made to spread the AP religion to your island cities where possible so that those monastaries and temples can be whipped in prep for later.
Short of that it's very hard to get those dykes finished in those super low hammer cities other than waiting until a hammer corp is open to you, which is always going to be weak on a crowded archi map.


kc_swede makes a good point too, the problem I find with the rex first and capture GLH later method is that it can be tough to do before rifling if it's any kind of distance away, at which point you're not far from obseleting the GLH anyway. But I'll take his points on board and try to fit a couple of rex vs GLH test games with these game settings.

 

[Gwyddelig]

If I were testing the Adventurer save, I'd test going Mng>BW and worker>wb. Why build a warrior or wb, when you have a good fish tile available to build the worker fast? Then use the worker to mine the plains hill while growing to pop2 and building the second wb. Then you're able to build the wb and the warrior much faster. When the worker is done with the mine, pre-mine the two forests.

And test whether it's better to wait 3t for the fish nets or do the clams imediately.

Very true and I did do that once but it just felt wrong having the worker sitting idle for so long. This is probably a perspective things as the benefits of having the plains hill mined early are probably quite significant. Might give that another lash and do some proper maths on it.

 

[Gwyddelig]

Browsing this thread it would be easy to get the idea that building the Great Lighthouse is going to be like THE deciding factor in this game.

Poppycock!

GLH immediately gets +2 trade routes in one city. However, while you have no cities and no contact with AI, that is worth exactly nothing. Before you contact AI, after you've founded a couple more coastal cities, it is worth +2 commerce per city (which you can get with a cottage). Actually, until you know some AI with big cities and have trade routes open with those cities -- it isn't worth more than that.

You've started the game by cutting down all your trees and whipping your people to unhappiness and delayed expansion considerably. For some substantial returns much much later, yes, but what about now? This is Immortal level, recall. Do you really want to make it an OCC game?

Personally, I think you are probably just as well off not even trying to build the darn thing and just REX. Finding a good city site before the AI do is worth a lot more than a GLH, imo, even on a water map like this one. Now... if you ARE a wonder addict and insist on building at least one wonder this game, then by all means the GLH would be one of the most attractive... if you didn't have to build it in first city. However, when weighing against what you likely miss out on by straining for the GLH, I'd rather have some good cities.

It is not "game over" if you fail to build the GLH. But if you try to build it and fail, that is a serious handicap which you may have trouble overcoming. And whether you get it depends if your opponent(s) are industrious leaders starting with fishing or mining -- fortunately for you there are none who are industrious who start with both fishing/mining, but plenty of non-industrious with that double combo. A test game won't get your opponents right for this competition... so by trying to pound out the GLH right off the bat, you leave a lot to luck. (Yeah... like none of them have stone lying around either... right... do you feel lucky, punk?)

Far better, imo, to ignore the GLH until someone else builds it. And then go capture it.

Pah, you with your logic! What you say is very true and certainly I found that going after the GLH so aggresively meant that expansion suffered. That said, as I improved my early-game strategy it became less of an issue and the trade routes bringing in 9 even in the most mean of cities made a phenomenal difference to what would otherwise have been a fairly sluggish economy. Had I managed my military somewhat better then in one test game, I'd have been right up there (aunties, uncles and etc.) even late-game. Early writing and two galleys will get the GLH humming within a few turns of building it. Writing will be done during the GLH build itself and a galley will probably follow soon after. Then it's settlers, workers and units for a while.

This is of course not the only strategy but for Monarchists like myself it's an easy one with a big, obvious payoff while the drawbacks are more nuanced.

 

[Vynd]

I have to agree with kcd_swede. The Great Lighthouse is nice but it is hardly a must have. In a game with these settings I'll be much more concerned with simply getting some good territory to call my own. Preferably some good territory that includes Copper or Iron, so I can go and capture the cities with all of the cool wonders.

 

[Gwyddelig]

And while you are testing how to get the GLH, why don't you also test how many settlers/workers/galleys you can get for 200hammers. Just a thought.

I have to agree with kcd_swede. The Great Lighthouse is nice but it is hardly a must have. In a game with these settings I'll be much more concerned with simply getting some good territory to call my own. Preferably some good territory that includes Copper or Iron, so I can go and capture the cities with all of the cool wonders.

Will give it a go and report back.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Premine or prechop? If whipping a lighthouse is likely, you will be working the food first to grow and work all three mines, so you may have time to build mines later while growing. Getting those hammers to the GLH fast seems to be more important...right?

My guess is that with the adventurer save, the pre-mines are done before the worker has anything else to do and before the GLH could possibly be finished, maybe even before masonry is done.

 

[titanvol]

I haven't been playing civ IV very long, but I started at Monarchy level and I slaughter the AI at this level, but since I am still learning the nuances of the game haven't moved up in difficulty yet. I did start an Emporer level Warlords game and was doing quite well, then my wife bought me BTS, so it was back to the drawing board at Monarchy level for my learning curve. Not sure how I will do on Immortal. Also, I . . . always . . . play . . . pangea . . .

I've been wanting to start participating in BOTM, & this game will really challenge me not just in difficulty but adding in the whole water factor, so I am really uncertain about differences in starting strategies.

My questions:

- Obviously a galley can transport, but other than that what is the incentive for building them vs wb for early exploration; playing pangea I dont build many boats. other than ferrying early settlers to settle islands, which might only require 1 or 2 galleys, is there a real need to build galleys instead of wb

- How soon are compass & optics prioritized; obviously w/ the dutch there is even more incentie to get to astronomy; but typically i completely ignore this tech path on pangea. obviously this is map / game dependent even with an arch map, but other than the worker techs and writing; what is typically prioritized before this tech path, or on immortal should I try to get to alph first and trade for these rather than research

-what are good trade bait techs on immortal level?

-& this might seem like a really dumb question, but is the amphibious promotion worth prioritizing, should this be used for just a few units, possibly for an initial invasion of a civ, its first city and leave other units unpromoted to continue land war, or is it better to continue amphibious assaults & just leave an appropriate number of defenders in the city, can siege bombard cities from ships? (guess I could just WB test that question)

-what is a good ratio when DoWing for an overseas war of transports vs. escort ships, obviously it would be preferable to wait until you get your ships to the civ b4 DoW, but then there are reinforcements to consider and if the AI DoWs first.

-are there any tips for getting religions to spread to your cities from overseas contact?

I have tried playing a couple test games, but this has only showed me how thoroughly I have crippled my learning curve by only playing pangea & I would really like to make a competitive attempt to win this BOTM; how I fare vs other players is irrelevant at this point

 

[LowtherCastle]

And while you are testing how to get the GLH, why don't you also test how many settlers/workers/galleys you can get for 200hammers. Just a thought.

Or how about this: Build the GLH and then expand as much as possible till 1000BC. Compare that bpt with your 1000BC bpt from your REX plan. Compare when you get Alpha in each.

 

[kcd_swede]

This is of course not the only strategy but for Monarchists like myself it's an easy one with a big, obvious payoff while the drawbacks are more nuanced.

An easy strategy? By that I hope you mean that it is easy to get the GLH this way, simply follow a formula and viola turn 50-something you have it. Sounds like a tactic rather than a strategy. And I think you may be under-estimating what can go wrong with the tactic. Strategy is "How will you use the advantage of the GLH to win the game?" and I don't think the answer to that is easy at all.

My own personal experience: on Immortal level I will either (a) take over at least one neighbor's territory early--before all the AI get so way far ahead in tech; or (b) I will lose the game one way or another. (I find monarch easy and am fairly confident emperor level player).

An advantage like being twice the pop and land as the next AI I know what to do with. On the flip side, I'm pretty sure that even with the GLH at its optimum I will not be able to maintain parity with the AI in the early and mid-game. So for me the question is which carries more risk: (a) being (like 5 of the AI) without the benefits of the GLH and being able to attack 20 turns earlier, or (b) having a GLH and attacking 20 turns later. (I think I'm being generous with saying only 20 turns, btw). For me, option (b) seems riskier. Of course, if I find that we are truly isolated (until Astro) I would greatly regret not going for GLH since I wouldn't be able to launch an attack at all.

If I don't quickly find a neighbor to attack or metal to attack with, I could make a late push for the GLH after I have 2-3 cities to choose from. If I find stone. Then you can laugh at me if that falls short.

 

[LowtherCastle]

An advantage like being twice the pop and land as the next AI I know what to do with. On the flip side, I'm pretty sure that even with the GLH at its optimum I will not be able to maintain parity with the AI in the early and mid-game. So for me the question is which carries more risk: (a) being (like 5 of the AI) without the benefits of the GLH and being able to attack 20 turns earlier, or (b) having a GLH and attacking 20 turns later. (I think I'm being generous with saying only 20 turns, btw). For me, option (b) seems riskier. Of course, if I find that we are truly isolated (until Astro) I would greatly regret not going for GLH since I wouldn't be able to launch an attack at all.

If I don't quickly find a neighbor to attack or metal to attack with, I could make a late push for the GLH after I have 2-3 cities to choose from. If I find stone. Then you can laugh at me if that falls short.

Around 1000BC, AIs will have about 5 cities, maybe more. So you're hoping to have 10? Half of them will be relatively far from your capital, so your research will likely be plodding along at about 30%. Meanwhile, GLHers will have 3-4 cities by 1000BC. Their research will be zooming along at 80% and they'll already have a commanding tech lead over AIs.

Btw, stone won't help much with the GLH.

 

[Gwyddelig]

An easy strategy? By that I hope you mean that it is easy to get the GLH this way, simply follow a formula and viola turn 50-something you have it. Sounds like a tactic rather than a strategy. And I think you may be under-estimating what can go wrong with the tactic. Strategy is "How will you use the advantage of the GLH to win the game?" and I don't think the answer to that is easy at all.

My own personal experience: on Immortal level I will either (a) take over at least one neighbor's territory early--before all the AI get so way far ahead in tech; or (b) I will lose the game one way or another. (I find monarch easy and am fairly confident emperor level player).

An advantage like being twice the pop and land as the next AI I know what to do with. On the flip side, I'm pretty sure that even with the GLH at its optimum I will not be able to maintain parity with the AI in the early and mid-game. So for me the question is which carries more risk: (a) being (like 5 of the AI) without the benefits of the GLH and being able to attack 20 turns earlier, or (b) having a GLH and attacking 20 turns later. (I think I'm being generous with saying only 20 turns, btw). For me, option (b) seems riskier. Of course, if I find that we are truly isolated (until Astro) I would greatly regret not going for GLH since I wouldn't be able to launch an attack at all.

If I don't quickly find a neighbor to attack or metal to attack with, I could make a late push for the GLH after I have 2-3 cities to choose from. If I find stone. Then you can laugh at me if that falls short.

I'm not much of a warmonger at all I'm afraid, in fact it is the weakest part of my game so chances are, if I go for war, I'll lose (or cripple myself in the winning, as happened in the last BOTM...). I'm simply not good at it. So you're method of finding an enemy to kill, especially on an archipelago map isn't going to suit me. That's not to say that I won't rush a near neighbour if the stars are right but a rush is a somewhat different beast. No, my path will have to be different and I make no apologies for it.

Of course the GLH is easy to get once you've worked it out. The question is whether it's worth it and I think on this sort of map a wonder like the GLH absolutely has the power to influence longer-term strategy to a great degree. Getting nine extra commerce out of a basic city without it would be rather difficult on this map (for me at any rate). That is very far from saying one has to get it. As you say, there is much expansion that can be done while building the GLH and I'm keen to explore the implications of this early -ame decision, especially given that land-by-conquest is not my forté. All I can say that I made it past mid-game in one test, won the liberalism race and was doing well tech-wise due to the extra commerce paying for my cities and two solid science cities driving my research. Of course, my power rating sucked. That may be due to the GLH stunting me but it's much more likely to be my blithe disregard for my own defence. It's a lesson I'm striving to learn but I must say I was pleased with myself for getting as far as I did (maybe without basis but, mweh).

 

[Gwyddelig]

My questions:

- Obviously a galley can transport, but other than that what is the incentive for building them vs wb for early exploration; playing pangea I dont build many boats. other than ferrying early settlers to settle islands, which might only require 1 or 2 galleys, is there a real need to build galleys instead of wb

Galleys can stand up to barb ships whereas WBs just die. That said, on the test maps barb galleys weren't much of a problem really (due to the small map size not allowing them to spawn so easily???). I'm certainly toying with using an early WB for exploration (adv. save). You can also upgrade galleys whereas WBs remain WBs and if you plan to war in te mid/late game then lots of galleys to upgrade to East Indiamen is no harm. YMMV of course


-what are good trade bait techs on immortal level?
In my experience Aesthetics and philosophy make excellent trade bait


-are there any tips for getting religions to spread to your cities from overseas contact?
Open borders certainly helps and some AIs will actively seek to spread their faith rather than leave it to the vagries of trade routes. More experienced guys and gals might be able to tell you more about this than I.

I have tried playing a couple test games, but this has only showed me how thoroughly I have crippled my learning curve by only playing pangea & I would really like to make a competitive attempt to win this BOTM; how I fare vs other players is irrelevant at this point

I'm a middling Monarch player so take or leave what I say

 

[kcd_swede]

Around 1000BC, AIs will have about 5 cities, maybe more. So you're hoping to have 10? Half of them will be relatively far from your capital, so your research will likely be plodding along at about 30%. .

Dividie and conquer. I'm hoping to militarily keep the neighbors from getting too far ahead, attacking one at a time until they are all dead. Actual milage may vary (i.e. don't bother me with city counts and such).

Meanwhile, GLHers will have 3-4 cities by 1000BC. Their research will be zooming along at 80% and they'll already have a commanding tech lead over AIs

Sure sure... the AI will leave you a few 1-tile islands, deserts and tundra. And you'll get 4 cities maybe by having them overlap about 20 tiles in the bfc. By the time you have axemen those longbows might prove too much, though.

Please keep track for me of how many coins your GLH is actually netting you in 1000BC. That should be illuminating for all of us. A test game will suffice. BTW: if I only build 1 city I can stay at 100% research forever. But I do not think this is a winning strategy for this BOTM.

Anyhow, there will be enough spread in when the AI build the GLH that some people will get it in a second city build and some people will get beat to it even if they follow this formula from the word "go". Those damn random events, eh?

Btw, stone won't help much with the GLH.

Thank you! That was very useful to know. Honestly, I've been playing this game for what seems like a long time and I still thought stone gave a production bonus to the GLH. I actually looked it up on the reference chart and you are absolutely right. Learn something new every day. (From this you can surmise that I do not often pursue the GLH as such a critical high priority).

 

[titanvol]

Thanx for your reply, I also did not have a problem w/ barb galleys in tests, im thinking the crowded map & immortal expansion rate is the reason; i c ur point about the upgrade, but think i will use a couple wb 4 exploration b4 investing in a galley, or at least possibly keep my first galley nearby if it is necessary to settle islands for expansion.

having played civ III gotm a long time ago & knowing how creative the maps can be, i am thinking that warrior over there is there for a reason & we will want a city on that island, my theory is that is where copper / iron will show up

 

[Adonias]

Poppycock!
+2 commerce per city bla bla

bla bla REX bla bla

All very true, but rexing with GLH means you can rex longer before hitting negative gold at 0% research. This is especially true now colony expenses are off (or do you also miss the extra commerce from off-continent cities?)

 

[Gwyddelig]

Thanx for your reply, I also did not have a problem w/ barb galleys in tests, im thinking the crowded map & immortal expansion rate is the reason; i c ur point about the upgrade, but think i will use a couple wb 4 exploration b4 investing in a galley, or at least possibly keep my first galley nearby if it is necessary to settle islands for expansion.

having played civ III gotm a long time ago & knowing how creative the maps can be, i am thinking that warrior over there is there for a reason & we will want a city on that island, my theory is that is where copper / iron will show up

Aye, expecting it to spawn on the plains hill behind the settler is probably a bit more than the Map Genies of Dooooom feel is our due...

 

[Gwyddelig]

All very true, but rexing with GLH means you can rex longer before hitting negative gold at 0% research. This is especially true now colony expenses are off (or do you also miss the extra commerce from off-continent cities?)

Just so, though I reckon KCD's point is that there'll be no good land left to REX to on this map if you delay to get the GLH.

 

[kcd_swede]

Or how about this: Build the GLH and then expand as much as possible till 1000BC. Compare that bpt with your 1000BC bpt from your REX plan. Compare when you get Alpha in each.

That is definitely on my agenda to test. My experience isn't enormous, so a few quick tests may teach me a lot.

 

[Markus5]

I played a number of test games and now I'm a bit less worried about targeting the GrLightHouse instead of rapid city expansion. Still, I'm worried enough to try some more test games later.

In the most worrisome test so far, I had a rather nice island to myself -- room for 4 cities. I easily got the GrLightHouse, then began city expansion. I got one city before 2 AIs were on my island (mine!) planning to settle. And, I was getting crowded by nearby island-cities.

In all the other tests, I again easily got the GrLightHouse and there was sufficient room to expand. It was never ideal, but it was hopeful.

It would be really, really nice to get a settler out before the GrLightHouse. That will be my next series of tests.