BOTM 16 Pregame. Starts March 15, 2009

[kcd_swede]

To those knocking GLH:

Well I for one never intended to disparage the GLH - it is a very strong WW for this map type. I thought the conversation could benefit from a more balanced appraisal of its costs.

Personally, if I see no copper and sufficent expansion space when BW comes in I will probably try for the GLH. Unless the warrior shows us something that makes rapid settling an even bigger priority than I already consider it. Test games are fine for figuring out the optimum first build order. Beyond that they can be very misleading.

My guess is that the game-maker was serious when he says we are surrounded. My guess is that the warrior is on (apparently) a different landmass for a reason -- a reason that could/should force one to rethink the formulaic openings being discussed. But what do I know?

 

[smitsk00]

My guess is that with the adventurer save, the pre-mines are done before the worker has anything else to do and before the GLH could possibly be finished, maybe even before masonry is done.

Very true on adventurer. I checked. On contender, though you can only manage 1 prechop and most of a premine on the forest hills. Still gets you GLH at or right before 1800BC. (turns 54-56 I think?)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well I for one never intended to disparage the GLH - it is a very strong WW for this map type. I thought the conversation could benefit from a more balanced appraisal of its costs.

Personally, if I see no copper and sufficent expansion space when BW comes in I will probably try for the GLH. Unless the warrior shows us something that makes rapid settling an even bigger priority than I already consider it. Test games are fine for figuring out the optimum first build order. Beyond that they can be very misleading.

My guess is that the game-maker was serious when he says we are surrounded. My guess is that the warrior is on (apparently) a different landmass for a reason -- a reason that could/should force one to rethink the formulaic openings being discussed. But what do I know?

Well, look at it this way then:

We're either going to expand for a bit or axe/chariot rush. If we're to do ANYTHING but immediately hit a close spawn neighbor (not likely on stock archipelago, but possibly with some host editing), then the GLH isn't exactly a bad draw. The bonus food from the lighthouse is welcome for seafood tiles, and my estimation is that it will be highly likely we want galleys. This means a run at GLH is only 1 tech (masonry) away for a wonder that buys us a faster tech rate and probably +2-4 extra cities afforded early.

Warrior on a separate landmass is a stressor though. I'm thinking about barbs in that regard - immortal barbs aren't a joke normally, but they can be on arch. Now, the low sealevel might change that. However, I'm not so sure the host would just GIVE us a large landmass with no AIs on it to settle ----> that would be like dropping us 1-2 difficulty levels, barbs be damned. I do want to scout that as soon as possible though. A GLH push would be helped by forgoing a military tech but we might not be able to do that and not pay for it. We'll see.

IMO it should be possible to get way more than 6 cities by 1 AD with GLH. I was running an old LHC game where I put up the great wall/pyramids and like 8 by 1 AD. Granted, I had stone, but that's 2 wonders to JUST GLH. Obviously we'll be a bit slower if we HAVE to use galleys though.

 

[mabraham]

Well, look at it this way then:

We're either going to expand for a bit or axe/chariot rush. If we're to do ANYTHING but immediately hit a close spawn neighbor (not likely on stock archipelago, but possibly with some host editing), then the GLH isn't exactly a bad draw. The bonus food from the lighthouse is welcome for seafood tiles, and my estimation is that it will be highly likely we want galleys. This means a run at GLH is only 1 tech (masonry) away for a wonder that buys us a faster tech rate and probably +2-4 extra cities afforded early.

Warrior on a separate landmass is a stressor though. I'm thinking about barbs in that regard - immortal barbs aren't a joke normally, but they can be on arch. Now, the low sealevel might change that. However, I'm not so sure the host would just GIVE us a large landmass with no AIs on it to settle ----> that would be like dropping us 1-2 difficulty levels, barbs be damned. I do want to scout that as soon as possible though. A GLH push would be helped by forgoing a military tech but we might not be able to do that and not pay for it. We'll see.

IMO it should be possible to get way more than 6 cities by 1 AD with GLH. I was running an old LHC game where I put up the great wall/pyramids and like 8 by 1 AD. Granted, I had stone, but that's 2 wonders to JUST GLH. Obviously we'll be a bit slower if we HAVE to use galleys though.

Agreed, on most of this. I haven't seen a non-hut-roosting barb on my test map games, so I'm not too fussed about them in the short term, but it depends on how large our landmass is.

Another factor in the REX rate is the need to send some exploring boats to make sure you will have profitable trade routes when the time comes, and/or the desirability of circumnavigating for 50% faster boats should an axe or mace rush be on the cards, or just for faster island REXing. It's not clear to me whether you might build a pair of WB right after GLH for this purpose, or maybe after your first settler, or maybe randomly as things pan out. Bear in mind that these WBs will also be your main scouts east and west for your REX, so they serve that purpose too.

 

[mabraham]

But OK... AI do tend to cross water slowly , so even building the GLH one should be able to get land for settling. That might be the strongest opening possible. If there is copper or horse anywhere in the start screen, I'm sure it is the strongest.

Would you abort a GLH if you had bronze and an AI on your landmass? I would. Would you delay GLH by teching AH to find horses? I wouldn't.

 

[smitsk00]

I think is better built: WB-WB-(change to worker when city has grown to 2[whip 1]) - continue with WB - LH (whip) - Warrior - GLH (whip3) finishing in 1840 BC

I agree...basically. In my test games, my earliest GLH date was also 1840BC. Build was simple WB, Worker, Lighthouse, GLH. Research was sailing, Mining, BW(immediate switch to slavery), Masonry. Worker mined one hill, prechopped another and is 2 turns from mining the last forested hill when GLH is started. Masonry is reached at the same time city hits pop 4 - lighthouse is whipped -GLH starts. I have then been researching straight to MC (we are likely to NEED hamers on a small Arch map, and need them sooner rather than later-even if that means running a workshop on a grassland sometimes!) I have been able to trade MC around for most essential back techs (usually AH, Writing, Alphabet, IW, Math at the least, sometimes Compass). Then I pursue Optics or Machinery (sometimes Optics has to wait for me to get Compass). I have been able to use my first Great person, typically a merchant to bulb Currency for the +1 trade routes. When you add in harbors, the GLH is pretty awesome!

I have been right in the thick of the liberalism race. If I bypass Optics, then I get it, but then I cant trade around for Astronomy . One time I was able to trade for Philosophy instead of teching it and then I won the race. It was a risk though becasue I gave away CS in order to get it. My military is pretty small, though, so I worry about what could happen next.

 

[kcd_swede]

Would you abort a GLH if you had bronze and an AI on your landmass? I would. Would you delay GLH by teching AH to find horses? I wouldn't.

on both counts.

 

[srad]

Not in my tests. Only east-west.

Ok, thanks for the info!

 

[pnp_dredd]

Does the GL do anything to stop religion spread? Perhaps something about trade routes?

I'm playing a culture test game on mabraham's test map, and built the GLH. I've just completed Liberalism and only had one religion spread to a single city (the capital) - the rest of my cities are completely religion free.

I've got the GLH so I've had open borders with everyone for most of the game (I've cancelled open borders with people sometimes due to demands). No, I'm not running Theocracy.

Is there something else bleeding obvious that I missed?

In my other test game I had 3-4 religions by now, and every city had something spread to it. This is simply too unlucky to have happenned by chance. There's three other religions in AI cities butting up against my borders, I have open borders, but they just will not spread to me.

Very strange.

 

[mabraham]

Does the GL do anything to stop religion spread? Perhaps something about trade routes?

I'm playing a culture test game on mabraham's test map, and built the GLH. I've just completed Liberalism and only had one religion spread to a single city (the capital) - the rest of my cities are completely religion free.

I've got the GLH so I've had open borders with everyone for most of the game (I've cancelled open borders with people sometimes due to demands). No, I'm not running Theocracy.

Is there something else bleeding obvious that I missed?

In my other test game I had 3-4 religions by now, and every city had something spread to it. This is simply too unlucky to have happenned by chance. There's three other religions in AI cities butting up against my borders, I have open borders, but they just will not spread to me.

Very strange.

In my test games on that map up to 1AD I've had a little bit of natural random religion spread, sometimes more than one religion, sometimes only one. Perhaps you've just been unlucky.

I plan to ignore religions in this BOTM unless I acquire a city with the AP religion, since the +2 bonus per AP religion building for getting my Dykes will be too good to pass up in some places.

 

[budweiser]

There are 13 sea tiles there if you settle in place. It just screams moai and colossus.

If you go Mining/BW/Sailing, then be-line priesthood will that be enough time to get the oracle and take MC(pottery needed)? Of course an early library has its appeal as well, but that would require roads, pottery and writing.

I'm not entirely sold on GLH, but I think it mostly depends on the map. The true strenght of the Dutch appears in the early industrial, just when these early wonders start to go obsolete.

I think a Lib/astronomy slingshot would be the best strategy. Followed up with a strong force of amphibius troops transported by East India Men. It would be really good to be able to make amphibious troops right ou of the gate.

Experienced Captain
Note this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313750

 

[mabraham]

I agree...basically. In my test games, my earliest GLH date was also 1840BC. Build was simple WB, Worker, Lighthouse, GLH. Research was sailing, Mining, BW(immediate switch to slavery), Masonry. Worker mined one hill, prechopped another and is 2 turns from mining the last forested hill when GLH is started. Masonry is reached at the same time city hits pop 4 - lighthouse is whipped -GLH starts.

Yep. I just got GLH 1880BC (turn 53) on my contender test map above. Note that the above strategy does not build a warrior, and does not require one. I used prevent-growth while building the WB, and switched immediately to worker despite still being at population 1.

When done, the worker moved onto the PH and mined it. BW has not arrived when he finished, so I moved him twice to the far GFH, since I didn't need the third mine or chop done earlier that this achieves. BW arrived on the turn the worker finished his trek, so I switched. The pop growth to 4 arrived 1 turn before masonry was due and the same time that forest was chopped, so a 2-pop whip was perfectly timed for overflow to GLH.

For the early part of the GLH you are happiness-limited to population 3, but during this time you have only two mines+fish to work, so this is alright. The third mine gets built before you can grow to population 4, and with the early expedition, this worker is now in better position to do whatever else you need (e.g. a road for your settlers later). Essentially you swap a wasted worker turn earlier on for a useful one now.

Of course the earlier GLH is quite moot, since it doesn't earn a thing until you have either access to multiple AI trade routes or 3+ cities or combination thereof. You now need to backfill some WB and warrior to REX at full capacity. By turn 66 (1360BC) I'd built my warrior, two more WB, whipped a 2-pop granary and put two turns on a new WB as I arrived back at pop 4 (happiness cap). One could start an explorer WB here, but I made a settler first.

Anyway by 1080BC I had my first city up, teched Alphabet in 875BC (same as earlier game; also dispatched my first explorer WB) and had my third city up in 800BC (so the GLH is finally working). This seems to be ahead of my earlier GLH game on this map. I had been luckier to have been met by more AIs than in that earlier game, so I had decent trading options (IW, hunting, archery, AH, myst and a pile of favourable diplomatic ratings for writing and alphabet).

 

[mabraham]

Experienced Captain
Note this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=313750

Nice thought, but there are no random events in this game.

Also, there's no vassal states, so that's going to make fast domination tricky. Even with GLH, you seem unlikely to be able to support enough of the land inside your own empire to reach both cutoffs before actual conquest occurs I wouldn't be at all surprised for the fastest wins to be "raze 'em all" conquests, rather than domination.

 

[Kito]

Originally Posted by srad View Post
Is it possible to get the "circumnavigate the world"-bonus on a toroidal-map if you do a north-south circumnavigation?

I had to go East-West AND North-South to obtain the bonus....

 

[LowtherCastle]

I had to go East-West AND North-South to obtain the bonus....

Same here. I stand corrected. When I tested it before I tried N-S first, but didn't get the point.

 

[Adonias]

Aargh... missed oracle by one turn for MC after finishing GLH in turn 51, having another city with copper for collosus. That was 1380BC.... darn... Very risky need more games to decide whether or not to pursue this tactic. I'll only try it when I have copper close though (and I verified there is SOME space to expand...)

Other testgames show that even in this setup the GLH is tactic is very strong IF you don't start with another AI on the continent. There is lot's of room in most other cases...

I also had a start where there was a continent circumnavigating the world N-S

 

[Deckhand]

I had to go East-West AND North-South to obtain the bonus....

This seems like a possible edge for us humans. I doubt the AI is programmed to try for N-S circumnavigation. (OTOH their "just explore like crazy" algorithm may take care of it.)
Also, I suspect we will need Caravels to go both E-W And N-S.

 

[Adonias]

Also, I suspect we will need Caravels to go both E-W And N-S.

Very certainly not. Unless the mapmaker edited the map, all land is reachable by galley.

 

[Gwyddelig]

I've done it both with and without the GLH now and while you certainly expand a bit more (maybe 1-2 cities in it at most) if you leave the GLH, it's not by much and certainly not enough to compensate for the +9 per city (basic) that the GLH gets you. The earliest I could get it was 1920-BC(Turn 52). Spam a few settlers after that and I reckon you're still set for early war. Of course, this is a test game only and I'm merely a monarch so take it as you like it.

PS - adventurers; settle the fish first, you'll grow to size two a turn earlier

 

[smitsk00]

Yep. I just got GLH 1880BC (turn 53) on my contender test map above. Note that the above strategy does not build a warrior, and does not require one. I used prevent-growth while building the WB, and switched immediately to worker despite still being at population 1.

When done, the worker moved onto the PH and mined it. BW has not arrived when he finished, so I moved him twice to the far GFH, since I didn't need the third mine or chop done earlier that this achieves. BW arrived on the turn the worker finished his trek, so I switched. The pop growth to 4 arrived 1 turn before masonry was due and the same time that forest was chopped, so a 2-pop whip was perfectly timed for overflow to GLH.

For the early part of the GLH you are happiness-limited to population 3, but during this time you have only two mines+fish to work, so this is alright. The third mine gets built before you can grow to population 4, and with the early expedition, this worker is now in better position to do whatever else you need (e.g. a road for your settlers later). Essentially you swap a wasted worker turn earlier on for a useful one now.

Of course the earlier GLH is quite moot, since it doesn't earn a thing until you have either access to multiple AI trade routes or 3+ cities or combination thereof. You now need to backfill some WB and warrior to REX at full capacity. By turn 66 (1360BC) I'd built my warrior, two more WB, whipped a 2-pop granary and put two turns on a new WB as I arrived back at pop 4 (happiness cap). One could start an explorer WB here, but I made a settler first.

Anyway by 1080BC I had my first city up, teched Alphabet in 875BC (same as earlier game; also dispatched my first explorer WB) and had my third city up in 800BC (so the GLH is finally working). This seems to be ahead of my earlier GLH game on this map. I had been luckier to have been met by more AIs than in that earlier game, so I had decent trading options (IW, hunting, archery, AH, myst and a pile of favourable diplomatic ratings for writing and alphabet).

I am curiuos how you prevented growth and still got the GLH earlier? Interesting...I will investigate. The one turn does make a differece b/c it means that I have my second city out one turn faster too!

I tried teching Alphabet after GLH too, but I found that I got much more in trade if I teched MC instead. Usually only one or two AI had Alphabet, so I was able to get it and trade it around a bit (but not too much!!).