BOTM 16 Pregame. Starts March 15, 2009

[kcd_swede]

All very true, but rexing with GLH means you can rex longer before hitting negative gold at 0% research. This is especially true now colony expenses are off (or do you also miss the extra commerce from off-continent cities?)

You are assuming that the REX will be economy-limited. I am assuming it will be land-limited. 6 AI. Small map. Mostly water. See what I mean?

 

[Adonias]

Just so, though I reckon KCD's point is that there'll be no good land left to REX to on this map if you delay to get the GLH.

ah... small map, 6 AI, immortal... yah... I get the point...

[edit]
you beat me to it
[/edit]

 

[srad]

Is it possible to get the "circumnavigate the world"-bonus on a toroidal-map if you do a north-south circumnavigation?

 

[LowtherCastle]

You are assuming that the REX will be economy-limited. I am assuming it will be land-limited. 6 AI. Small map. Mostly water. See what I mean?

Well, you'll be able to settle the north clams and the eastern pigs. That's already two cities. And it's low sea level. Plenty of islands to settle.

Speaking of pigs, folks, that jungle can't spread while the warrior is on that tile, so if that island is small, you might want to sentry him there.

 

[Markus5]

Speaking of pigs, folks, that jungle can't spread while the warrior is on that tile, so if that island is small, you might want to sentry him there.

Really? Now, that's something I'd never heard of before. Thanks.

 

[MarkM]

Speaking of pigs, folks, that jungle can't spread while the warrior is on that tile, so if that island is small, you might want to sentry him there.

That's a new one for me too.

I wonder about the generality of this, does that mean that new resourced (gems, gold, silver, etc) also can't be "discovered" inside a working mine if there is a unit in the square?

 

[Gwyddelig]

Is it possible to get the "circumnavigate the world"-bonus on a toroidal-map if you do a north-south circumnavigation?

Yup, circumnavigation is on offer. If you want to bag it though I suggest you start early. In the test games it's going comfortably in the BCs

 

[Gwyddelig]

Well, you'll be able to settle the north clams and the eastern pigs. That's already two cities. And it's low sea level. Plenty of islands to settle.

Speaking of pigs, folks, that jungle can't spread while the warrior is on that tile, so if that island is small, you might want to sentry him there.

That happened to me alright. What were the bloody chances? Iron-working was still unresearched at that point. Typical.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Is it possible to get the "circumnavigate the world"-bonus on a toroidal-map if you do a north-south circumnavigation?

Not in my tests. Only east-west.

 

[Deckhand]

...
Far better, imo, to ignore the GLH until someone else builds it. And then go capture it.

We should take advice about conquering our neighbors from you?

... [from BOTM15 completed game spoiler thread]
Units attacked = 0
Units defeated = 2 (xxx found a couple of auto-exploring caravels)

 

[Deckhand]

Not in my tests. Only east-west.

That's my circumnavigation experience as well. (anecdotal evidence)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

To those knocking GLH:

It is going to be worth FOUR non-pop commerce in every city guaranteed (intercontinental trade by settling any other island), and MORE if we meet even a single AI. Rather than comparing it to a hamlet, it's more like comparing it to a village in every city, without tying up pop. That's pretty significant.

 

[adrianj]

I have never won on Immortal before, but I'm fairly comfortable on Emperor. I've been working on my Cultural strategy and I think that's my best shot. This won't be the easist map type for culture!

Please feel free to comment on the following thoughts:

Start:
Settler 1S then see. The capital needs as many cottages as possible. With a couple of food resources I'll happily cottage the hills later on. Would like at least 10 cottagable squares (only guaranteed six from what we can see). I'm encouraged that 2 SE is coast rather than ocean, indicating that there is extra land somewhere to the S that we can't see (hoping for forested grassland, but jungle will do).

The alternate strategy is to settle in place and use the Capital as a GP farm, however this limits tech speed with Beaurocracy, and I may need to relocate the capital somewhere cottagable, which really slows you down. I'll move 1S, and can always move back to the original location if there's not enough land to the South.

Build order will be something like: WB WB Worker Galley Settler

Need to get my three Legendary cities up ASAP and full of cheap libraries, can worry about minor cities later. Second city likely to be a GP farm (and legendary city), and will contribute a settler or two early on. Third city needs 10 flat green squares and 3 hills and may not be coastal. Fourth city needs to be high production to make galleys/settlers/military. Again, may not be coastal.

Tech pathway:
Beeline for Writing, grab Sailing for galleys, then Alphabet then to CS then beeline for Liberalism (also need to grab Music ASAP for Sistine)
Happy to get up to 3 GSs (Academy, and bulb Philo or Edu or Liberalism)

Wonders:
I think it's unlikely that we'll get Oracle or Pyramids as we start with the wrong techs. Marble/Stone could change this.
Colossus is off the tech pathway for Culture games.
GLH gives +2 trade routes for coastal cities. This is less of a benefit when pursuing culture as I'll only ever build 6-7 cities, some of which aren't coastal. I think I would prefer to get an early settler and library (GS) and get to CS and Beaurocracy ASAP.
Parthenon is nice if I'm early to Aesthetics, but often clashes with building NE / Sistine
Sistine is a must, so I'll be tech trading for Literature ASAP so that I can be one of the first to Music (will this work or do I have to tech Aes -> Lit -> Music after I get CS?)
Moai Statues: not sure where to build this, perhaps in the capital to take advantage of the Beaurocracy boost? But I want to be working cottages in the capital. hmm. Maybe in fourth city.
NE in the GP farm.
Hermitage later on.

Resources:
Marble/Copper are the main resources that are needed to build wonders / cathedrals
Happiness resources are needed early
Health is needed later, and I can trade away all of my happiness resources for diplomatic reasons.

Diplomacy:
This is what often lets me down. I guess I'll need a large number of units to ward of potential attacks, as my power graph will suck. Must be careful when adopting religions. Be selective with open borders: needed for good trade routes but allow civs to see my weakness. My biggest problem in the past has been war from Pleased/Friendly AIs with more than twice my power rating. Late game I'll happily sacrifice my outer cities if it will keep my legendary cities intact.

Happy to hear any comments/critiques!

I read pnp_dredd's post with much interest - as I'm also a typically peaceful player and cultural victory is my latest fad. I thought I was an Emperor level player until Moderator Action. That game is still in progress. Do not discuss games in progress outside the relevent spoiler thread - DS.

My usual strategy was quite standard I believe: Beeline CS, Music, Liberalism, take Nationalism, turn off research and cross fingers.

This game is a move up in difficulty for me, and the map settings aren't great for culture. Plus, I really like the dutch UU and UB, which I would miss out on otherwise.

So my new strategy will be something along the lines of CS -> .. -> Liberalism -> .. -> Astro -> .. -> Steam Power -> .. -> Medicine. I'm hoping that Sid's Sushi Co can do the culture gathering for me. The one good thing about archi maps is the abundance of seafood.

Planning this far ahead in the game assumes that I can stay alive that long, and if I'm going as far as Medicine, how far will the AI go? They could be in space by then

Early game I'm thinking something like BW soon to see if I have copper. If yes, then I'll start an army and try conquer someone, crossing my fingers they build some wonders for me. If I don't have copper I'll hope that I'm not too late to build GLH myself - at least I'll have the advantage of being able to chop it.

After this point I'll try to get my GP Farm up and running, and producing the scientists I need for Academy and bulbs of Education and maybe Philo if the timing is right. NE ASAP would be nice, but I'm not sure whether to reseach Aesth -> Lit myself or trade for it.

Ahhh planning. I think test games are definitely on the cards.

 

[mabraham]

You are assuming that the REX will be economy-limited. I am assuming it will be land-limited. 6 AI. Small map. Mostly water. See what I mean?

The sea levels are low, and to compensate for being mostly water, I think Archipelago maps are larger than other maps. I only have anecdotal data for that, however.

Not in my tests. Only east-west.

Correct. North-south circumnavigation didn't work in my test, though I seem to remember a hub-spokes multiplayer human game where I did it with a north-south warrior. Don't quote me, though.

And while you are testing how to get the GLH, why don't you also test how many settlers/workers/galleys you can get for 200hammers. Just a thought.

settler+worker+galley = 210

Clearly that gives you a leg up on a second city to build defensive units while the food-rich capital keeps on with the settlers and workers. The relevant issues are

• whether the extra time gets you get extra cities from your main REX stream,
• whether you get any extra cities from a side REX stream that you establish earlier having avoided GLH, and
• whether you can pay for it when you're done.

It doesn't seem all that likely that you'll get another city with spare time to build a surplus settler if your civ has been successfully REXing defended cities with some workers scattered around before the available land is full. Thus it seems unlikely that the earlier REX start will amount to more than 1-2 cities difference when the land gets saturated. Obviously the amount of available land is critical here. If there's lots, then your second REX stream will give a boosted response. In my test game, land-filling wasn't going to happen until well after 1AD.

Please keep track for me of how many coins your GLH is actually netting you in 1000BC.

None

In the Contender test game I linked above, I built WB/WB/WB/warrior/worker/lighthouse/GLH completed in 1680BC (turn 58) simultaneously with finishing mining/sailing/BW/masonry/wheel/pottery/writing. I juggled around the warrior and worker so that I whipped the worker before finishing the warrior. By skipping the third WB you can get GLH a few turns earlier. One AI had contacted me, but apparently I wasn't eligible for a trade route (perhaps they need sailing too!). I got Alphabet in 875BC, and circumnavigated with a WB just before 1AD. An AI beat me to it by a handful of turns, because I experimented with a N-S circumnavigation.

By 1000BC (turn 75) I was still on one city (having built two explorer WBs while regrowing), so GLH was earning nothing.

By 500BC (turn 95) I had four cities. The additional two trade routes were earning 6/5/2/4 respectively. I assumed the most profitable route in each city would still exist without GLH, of course.

By 1AD (turn 115) I had six cities and parity with the tech leaders. I acquired Currency somewhere in there. The two GLH additional trade routes earned 6 in each city, despite two of the cities having not yet built a building and only just having had their cows pastured. There were still three more Dike-worthy city sites that I knew were available. I'd recently popped my Great Merchant and was researching Machinery while holding Monarchy, Calendar, Currency and Compass. I was producing 96bpt at 80%.

Assuming a linear increase of GLH commerce between these two points (not quite valid, but it'll do for this discussion), we can integrate the gained with the trapezoidal rule:

0.5*(17-0)*(95-75) + 0.5*(36-17)*(115-95) = 360 plus the GM.

That seems like a fine return for the first 57 turns of a 200 investment, with the recent trend due to continue for another 10-20 turns while I finish the REX, and a steady increase of a unknown slope due to come after that as the trade routes grow.

It would be really, really nice to get a settler out before the GrLightHouse. That will be my next series of tests.

That might be a useful comparison, along with straight REX. I'll do that on this same map over the weekend.

 

[Kito]

In the Contender test game I linked above, I built WB/WB/WB/warrior/worker/lighthouse/GLH completed in 1680BC (turn 58) simultaneously with finishing mining/sailing/BW/masonry/wheel/pottery/writing.

I think is better built: WB-WB-(change to worker when city has grown to 2[whip 1]) - continue with WB - LH (whip) - Warrior - GLH (whip3) finishing in 1840 BC

 

[Markus5]

I played a bunch of test games on random maps that sort-of matched the starting setup. The research was always Mining, Bronze, Sailing then Masonry. I always built workboat, workboat, worker, warrior, lighthouse, warrior or galley, settler, Great Lighthouse. I tried the galley instead of a warrior to test settling quickly on the island with the initial warrior. I didn't use the whip. The worker just mined and chopped. In 6 tries, I always got the Great Lighthouse. The earliest was turn 61, the latest was turn 72. I checked to see if any AI was building it and 3 times out of 6, one was. The earliest completion date for an AI was turn 75, the latest was turn 86.

It was only 6 tests. YMMV.

 

[mabraham]

...along with straight REX. I'll do that on this same map over the weekend.

I lied. I did it just now. AI built GLH on turn 73. By 1AD I had eight cities this time, including a site stolen from an AI (compared with the other game). One city had its defender still on the way. I could have been faster still - I'd built three libraries along the way. I'd have needed a second galley to actually use more settlers, however. There were quite a few city sites still apparently available.

As expected, basic trade routes were comparable - the capital had a 5 and a 4 and every other city had a pair of 3.

Tech hadn't gone so well. Several AIs had Construction, one had CS, one had Engineering and I was still one turn from finishing Compass. Otherwise it was comparable. I was putting out 69bpt on 50% (cf 96bpt at 80% for GLH).

I hadn't circumnavigated yet, since I was going hard for REX. I had one WB off trying to circumnavigate, though.

 

[mabraham]

I think is better built: WB-WB-(change to worker when city has grown to 2[whip 1]) - continue with WB - LH (whip) - Warrior - GLH (whip3) finishing in 1840 BC

Better, yes, but I haven't yet reproduced your date.

I teched mining/BW/sailing/masonry while building

WB (use prevent growth to get 2 right through building, when built, move to the fish, once fish are improved, allow growth again)
WB (until growth to size 2)
worker (while finishing BW, convert to slavery immediately and whip)
finish WB next turn with excess from whipping (move WB to work far clams since population is 1)

Now there's an issue with your path above. You can't start lighthouse yet because you're still researching sailing. So I got out a warrior and WB in the meantime (WB done with a forest chop before I wanted to work a third seafood) and finally started my lighthouse. I whipped that to flow on to GLH, but I didn't attempt to maximise the flow-on. Now the second forest chop contributes to GLH, and the third whip finishes it in 1720BC (turn 57). [Edit: Whipping LH earlier to get more flow-on led to the same finish date]

 

[kcd_swede]

We should take advice about conquering our neighbors from you?

As the saying goes: Free advice is worth every penny. (You get what you paid for).

 

[kcd_swede]

The sea levels are low, and to compensate for being mostly water, I think Archipelago maps are larger than other maps. I only have anecdotal data for that, however.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/reference/map_scripts_guide.php#archipelago

84x52 on standard size, same as "continents" map, more than a pangea map, lots more than a land-based map like great plains.
So in short... yes, the archipelago maps are among the largest. For a small world, though, 4AI is the default. 7 is the max allowed by HoF due to becoming unbalanced if AI have no room to expand. 6AI is a lot. But OK... AI do tend to cross water slowly , so even building the GLH one should be able to get land for settling. That might be the strongest opening possible. If there is copper or horse anywhere in the start screen, I'm sure it is the strongest.