BOTM 28 First Spoiler - 500 AD

[Duckweed]

Have not played isolated start for a long time. I usually rate isolated start as hardest map only 2nd to warmonger sandwich start. However, this map is far beyond the case, instead of seeing more than a dozen of techs available for trade in every AIs hand, I had some big Renaissance techs over them. A very relaxed Monarch/Emperor game.

1st GG was born in 1800BC.

Spoiler :

500AD Capital

Spoiler :

 

[Mitchum]

Great game so far, Duckweed. Nice capital!

It's interesting how what happens on the other continent can be so different from game to game. In my game, the Oracle was built by an AI in 1960 BC. In you game, you're still building it in 1760 BC and got it 6 turns later.

In general, is this "luck of the draw" or are there things that can be done to influence things on the other side of the world?

 

[Ribannah]

Duckweed, what did you take from the Oracle, and how many cities did you have in 500ad?
Was building the Great Lighthouse worth the effort?

Looks like you concentrated heavily on the capital, while I expanded faster early on (4 cities in 1760ad to your 3).

 

[babybluepants]

Damn, that's one sexy capital, Duckweed! In-place was clearly better here long-term.

@Mitchum,
In my game, the Oracle went in 2000 BC, as well, as I was teching Medi or PH.

 

[Duckweed]

@Mitchum
Building every early wonder in deity is a risk since AIs are capable of beating you if they want (or in another word, they randomly decide to do so). However there are general dates that AI will complete them in deity. Take 50% chance for example, both GLH and Oracle will be gone ~1500BC, hence I went for GLH 1st since it's more important IMO. Basically the movement of all your units, settlement of cities and even tiles worked by citizens can affect the AIs decisions and hence the completion of wonders.

@Ribannah
Oracle took CoL. Actually I was wonder crazy but not capital emphasis. IMO GLH was the most important wonder for this map given 2 islands nearby. In 500 AD, I had 14 cities with >600 beakers at 100% science slider and I already have Astro atm. I finished this game with a very sloppy play in the end. This map was a joke to be called deity.

 

[Ribannah]

CoL: I thought so. Personally, I prefer Metal Casting.

Oracle and Great Lighthouse both went to the AI early in my game; lacking 4 forests though (challenger save), I might have started early on the Pyramids anyway. I also lacked a Great Scientist for an Academy.

Still, I could have had Astronomy by 500ad, but prioritized Theology and Divine Right instead for the Apostolic Palace (extra hammers) and also Versailles, thereby preparing already for the later stages. If at all possible, I build Versailles rather than the Forbidden Palace on the starting continent, to make sure that I have 3 well-placed centres by the time I need them. The FP was built on the northern island at the 1-tile lake.

Around the cut-off point the building queues are usually full enough and research speed not a bottleneck, so I tend not to go for Education asap; I find it more important to lay the foundation for the later ages.

 

[Htadus]

That is an impressive capital Duckweed . Were you able to build the AP? I must admit this game does not feel like a Deity game since by now I would have ticked off several AI and has a stack to deal at my border. Looking forward to seeing your end game.

As for my game, I was getting ready to start the second part but just found out I can finish the Always Peace Gotm. So this have to wait for another time.

 

[Duckweed]

^ Instead, I razed the AP later. My ending was pretty crappy and I was a little lazy to post it.

 

[budweiser]

^ Instead, I razed the AP later. My ending was pretty crappy and I was a little lazy to post it.

I nuked the AP city in my game.

It was the only thing that could lose me the game.

 

[Mutineer]

AP never was a problem in my game, as my 2 freed vassals never got AP religion.

 

[Htadus]

^ Instead, I razed the AP later. My ending was pretty crappy and I was a little lazy to post it.

 

[srad]

@Ribannah, Duckweed:

Can you tell me how you micromanaged the start (I do not feel confident with coastal starts so I'm interested)?

Worker till Fishing (working the corn tile), then workboat with the 3H hill? Then finish worker?

 

[Ribannah]

I first finished the Worker, who appeared in 3520bc and improved Corn, Wheat, Ivory and Copper in that order, to finish those jobs in 2720bc. One turn earlier, the capital was size 6.

The Workboat appeared in 3080bc, when the capital was already size 3 and the Worker moved to the Ivory.

Switching from Worker to Workboat is hardly ever efficient. Here, you would reach size 6 two turns later with the Copper still to improve.

 

[Duckweed]

@Ribannah, Duckweed:

Can you tell me how you micromanaged the start (I do not feel confident with coastal starts so I'm interested)?

Worker till Fishing (working the corn tile), then workboat with the 3H hill? Then finish worker?

Can't remember exactly.

The build in capital should be worker->WB.
Worker irrigated the corn 1st and then Ivory->Wheat->Copper.
1st citizen on Corn, 2nd citizen on Fish tile and then on improved ivory.

 

[srad]

Thank you both!

I replayed the start several times today and came to the same conclusion and I was also thinking about the improvement order and when to build the first settler or if second worker first makes sense.

Did you a second worker before settler?


Until now I did never think too much about the start micromanagement and never did calculations. Just played it what my "gut-feeling" recommends me. This might sound funny especially that I consider the first 100 turns are probably the most important in a game.
But so I'm happy to have the feeling to go one step forward in the game and next time is calculation time

 

[Ribannah]

Thank you both!

You're welcome.

Did you a second worker before settler?

No, there was no need. Note that in other games, there may be.

Note, btw, also the difference between Duckweed's and my opening. Duckwood improved the Ivory before the Wheat. Thereby, he probably built a Settler at size 5, and timed Sailing and Masonry so that he could build Lighthouse and Great Lighthouse right after, while growing further without unhappiness. I, on the other hand, with less forests to chop (Challenger save), built a Settler at size 6 and went for more early Settlers and floodplain cottages.

As a consequence, I expect that Duckweed was ahead of me in technology during the middle game, while I had the potential to catch up later on, perhaps around Assembly Line. You'll have to read the second spoiler to see if that came true.

So you see, that the choices you make in the opening are also based on how you plan to play the middle game and even the endgame.

 

[srad]

Note, btw, also the difference between Duckweed's and my opening. Duckwood improved the Ivory before the Wheat. Thereby, he probably built a Settler at size 5, and timed Sailing and Masonry so that he could build Lighthouse and Great Lighthouse right after, while growing further without unhappiness. I, on the other hand, with less forests to chop (Challenger save), built a Settler at size 6 and went for more early Settlers and floodplain cottages.

I noticed the improvement difference but I had no explanation (maybe some more hammers and gold for a few turns).
Challenger save on Deity ... respect!

As a consequence, I expect that Duckweed was ahead of me in technology during the middle game, while I had the potential to catch up later on, perhaps around Assembly Line. You'll have to read the second spoiler to see if that came true.
.

You expect this because of the Oracle and the Great Lighthouse I assume?


Another question regarding your game: Researching Theo and Divine Right that early (building AP, Versaille, Spinal Min.) is this something 'normal' in such a scenario - going space with lots of land and no war necessary - for you?

I went Hammer Economy (early game cottages - later Workshops, State Property, Caste and early Assembly Line). 1830AD is not great and the main problem was surely a to slow expansion during early-midgame. But I had also lots of trouble with unhappiness (other civs in Emancipation) and health (factories and coal plants). So I doubt that even with a well played game the Hammer Economy route is a way to be competitive with your game.

 

[Ribannah]

You expect this because of the Oracle and the Great Lighthouse I assume?

And the fact that Duckweed is an excellent player.

Another question regarding your game: Researching Theo and Divine Right that early (building AP, Versaille, Spinal Min.) is this something 'normal' in such a scenario - going space with lots of land and no war necessary - for you?

As I had not faced such a scenario before, I can't say...

 

[Fluroscent]

Interesting... I was expecting to be heading for a nearby capital with immortals, and possibly needing to preserve some good sites "behind the lines".

So I actually settled 3E, with pigs/corn/gems (and copper ) in the BFC, leaving room for a strong production city on the ivory.
Expansion was the name of the game after it became obvious that we were isolated and the lands were so damn good.
No idea how you people managed so many wonders... I did try for pyramids, but it went the turn I wanted to start, around 1300BC. Oracle+GLH was long gone by then. Also wanted to attempt HG, but it went just as I finished the aqueduct around 800BC (was hoping to get failure gold). The only wonder I even managed to put turns into was colossus, which was purely for failure gold anyway.

OTOH, my rexing went well enough. Settled the FP/corn/gold site first, then corn+ivory+3x gems (had IW anyways), then the "starting location" on the ivory, then the awesome SW site (debated earlier settling, but a bit distant that early).

Early tech path: Mining-AH-BW-Wheel-IW/myst-Pott-Writing-Masonry(failed to do any good) -fish. Then 0% until GS born, then currency (through math)-> optics beeline. Kicking myself for forgetting that courthouses are cheap, should have pursued those.

500AD - 13 cities, ~150 sustainable beakers, 347 max. Weird tech path, no religion techs beyond myst, researching CoL slowly while massing gold (Hoping for trade... no luck so far). Almost circumnav, met 3 AI (any more details would be spoilerish it seems)

Other notes: Moved capital to triple gems site (also built academy there, only GP so far), happiness managed mostly by nice +6 forges. For cities, there are two on the SW "silver" island, rest on mainland. 3 more planned on mainland, and then a bunch on the NW large island.

Outlook: Looks like I'll have to work hard to lose this game, will now have to consider what VC to pursue.

 

[jesusin]

jesusin, contender, goal: fastest diplo or fastest cultural

Pregame thoughts:

let's have an open minded approach, I have never won a Deity XOTM. The worst risk in a Deity game is being left behind in the tech trading game, so I'll settle with the gems, leaving a bit of space behind for later backfilling, and I'll beeline Alphabet. Some people are announcing they are settling in place, let's hope an AI second settler takes the gems in their face.


Initial steps:

Sco 1NW 1SW sees nothing, settle 1SE. Build worker, research mining.
Nobody met when mining is in, no barbs either, the worker is busy, pick the wheel for reaching Alpha through Pottery. Early cottages are key for a financial civ.

Start a second worker till the corn is improved, then grow, complete worker at pop2.
Worker improves corn, ivory, wheat, gems.

When pottery is in, it is clear we have a lot of space to settle. REX is priority from now on. Don't go for Writing but for BW. No religions and looks like I'm alone, so no culture this game. In addition diplo will go well with the huge pop I'll get with all this land.


Expansion:

I think the key to this game is the order (and speed) you settle your cities.

02, second city, built S, with gold, stone, supercorn, 3FP, oasis; connected by road. This was important, since I missed Pyramids by a couple of turns. I deliberately left the stone for later, my goal was maximizing cottaged FPs while keeping the gold.

03 built with overabundance of food: 4FP, sheep, corn, wheat, 2wines, ignoring gold. It pumped out settlers for a long time, while always working its cottages.

04 goes E, has no resources but 7FP.

1000BC I've failed on Pyramids by 2 turns, I miss the extra happiness. Stats: 4 cities, 15 pop, 6 workers, 1unit(War), 2 strategic resources, 3 luxury resources, 2 health resources, 0 great persons, 0 world wonders, 0 national wonders, food/production/commerce=54-18-59, 48 sustainable beakers per turn, 4 culture per turn, 0 great person points per turn, 250 gold, 2gra,2monu, almost Lib. 0 religions, 4/4 cottages used, 13 Techs: Pott, Maths, BW, Myst, Mason. 0 civs killed. 2.5 hours played. Hire 2 scientists. I wonder if researching currency is the right thing to do, maybe I should be beelining Optics instead of going for CS.

05 corn, pig, 3gems.
06 fish,corn, pig.
07 clams, cow.
08 fish, 2sugar (those who settled this early, please, why did you do so?).
09 sheep.
10 fish, clams, stone.

1AD Stats: 10 cities, 45 pop, 2Set, 11workers, 6 units (2Axe), Gal, 3 strategic resources, 3 luxury resources, 7 health resources, 1 great persons, 0 world wonders, 0 national wonders, food/production/commerce=160-34-193, 157 sustainable beakers per turn, 23 culture per turn, 0 great person points per turn, 240 gold. 1 religions. 17/32 cottages used, 18 Techs: Curr, CS, IW, MC, Maths, Myst, no Aest,no Alpha. 0 civs killed. 5.5 hours played.
I am running Bureaucracy, have an Academy, no wonders. Ready to build 2 more cities:

11 pig, horses, ivory, -8gpt when settled.
12 built in NW island, with corn and river.

Since I had to research it all myself, I delayed the silver a bit too long. My cities where chosen because of food, happiness was my limit.
I am going for Oxford before Optics.

13 built in SW island, +4gpt when settled because trade routes, crabs,2silver.
14 marble,corn, copper, the gold that had been despised by the 3rd city.

500AD: 14cities, 90pop, 12workers, Educ, MC. 323sust bpt, almost Oxford. 40%pop, 30% land. The game is as good as won.


Now, I wish I had settled in place for faster REX but, how was I to know we had been given two thirds of the world?