BOTM 58 First Spoiler

jesusin · Oct 5, 2012

jesusin, contender. Goal: Fastest cultural victory.

Settled on Marble, built Settler first thing, researched Meditation.

Spoiler :

Demographics told me nobody had more initial research output than me and I was lucky to get my religion.
Revolted to Buddhism just after my Settler was built. I thought about the diplo consequences, but the extra happy face would help me to recover part of the cost of my bet.

Fishing, AH and BW followed.

Spoiler :

Stupid mistake made me not build a Worker for a turn on second city.

Spoiler :

Capital settled on Marble.
02 1E of pigs, with Pigs, Cow, Clam, Horses, 2lake, sea. Used to set up my empire, then as Legendary GPFarm.
03 West with Fish, 2lake, silver, iron, 3hills. Used as Legendary production city.
04 on Stone, because I wanted Pyramids (no cottages planned anywhere).

Confu and Christ gone very early. Exploring WB sets sails.
Barbs weren't a big problem, as my ultra-early cities fogbusted for me.

1000 BC Stats: 4 cities, 15pop, 2workers, WB, 4units(4Que), 2 strategic resources, 0 luxury resources, 3 health resources, 0 great persons, 0 world wonders, 0 national wonders, food/production/commerce=57-14-62, 33 bpt at breakeven, 5 culture per turn, 0 great person points per turn, 0 gold, lh, 2monu. 1 religions, 0/0 cottages used, 11 Techs: BW+first 2 tiers. 0 civs killed. 3 hours played.

3AI met.
Pyramids lost by 4 tuns, oh, oh, what a set back! At least I had a lot of hammers overflow ready and they were redirected to Moai in capital.

05 built between capital and 03, with Fish, Crabs, shared Spices, 2lakes, shared lake.
06built in N island, fish, cow, copper, shared gold.
Barb galleys are a pain. Nets lost. Exploring WB dies.
I did Aesthetics and Literature before Alpha cause Toku had Alpha very early. That was a mistake.
07 North by Rice and Cows.
Moai in 01, NE in 02, Parthenon in 03.
Music race failed by 1 turn. I could have got it!
Revolt to HR+slavery. Trade for lots of luxuries, solving the happy problem.
Research Drama, trade for Currency at last, that's a big one on this map, trade for CoL.
08 built far North, on island by France, with 2 Fish.

1AD Stats: 8cities, 38pop, 4workers, 8units (2Gal), 5 strategic resources, 4 luxury resources, 6 health resources, 0 great persons, 1 world wonders, 1 national wonders, food/production/commerce=120-53-194, 115bpt at breakeven , 44 useful culture per turn, 30 great person points per turn, 0 gold. 1 religions. 0/0 cottages used, 25 Techs: CoL, Music, Drama, Lite, Monar, IW, Curr, no MC. 0 civs killed. 7 hours played. reli/city, temples, caths== 4,1,0

Falabello · Oct 8, 2012

- I settled seven cities in the continent and two on Islands.
- My Galley arrived in the Copper/Fish Island with a Settler and a Quecha, but Togu settled it just 1 turn before me! I didn't see that one coming :mad:

!
- My techs were Fish/Min/BW/Sail/Mas/AH/TW/Pot/Writ/Aest/Poly/(IW,Priest traded)/Lit/(Mono,Hunt Traded)/(Alpha gifted)/Metal Casting in 18 turns
- I lost TGL by 2 turns (counting with forests prechopped). It was built in 1880 BC by a stupid unknown Empire

.
- Im trying to build The Great Library, but there are still 16 turns to finish it (with two forests). Impossible!
- Barbs were no problem: just a few warriors and Archers.
- The intention: this game is impossible to win (for while). So Ill try to play peacefully and concentrate my attention in Diplomacy, with no war against me. Among with NoDeity players my target is the Green Ambulance

.

- So at 1 AD I have 9 cities (all founded) - Pop 25 / Treasury 45
- 113 bpt (100%) and 32 bpt (30%)
- Cyrus +3 / Wang Kon +2 / Togukawa +5 :eek:

Falabello · Oct 9, 2012

Hey, Ive been waiting for the right game to take some doubts! And this is the right moment with the perfect game. Its because that game is an isolated mini continent with some Islands, no problems with barbs and two different situations for the same game: the test and the real one. And also it is Deity and very commented

. So my problem is how to build a powerful and strong Empire till 1AD :confused:

.

Some examples of what I talk about (chosen from the initial spoiler and first spoiler. Also from the players that post these stats

):
1AD Stats=>
My game:
10 cities, Pop 28, 146bpt at 100% (test game)
09 cities, Pop 25, 113bpt at 100% (real game)
Jastrow:
09 cities, Pop 32, 168bpt at 100% (first test game)
11 cities, Pop 31, 221bpt at 100% (second test game)
Importance of the order of cities: an extra 10 pop. (third test game)
11 cities, Pop ??, 200bpt at 100% (real game)
Shakabrade:
11 cities, Pop 46, 220bpt at 100% (first test game)
13 cities, Pop ??, 230bpt at 100% (second test game)
Shulec:
08 cities, Pop 26, 207bpt at 100% (real game)
Jesusin:
08 cities, Pop 38, 115bpt at breakeven (real game)

Comparing these results, I realize that my games are far behind from the ideal, very inefficient to build WW or prepare and maintain a strong army

. And independent the level (even in the lowest) this powerful beginning is crucial for a good victory (score or date) and to be more competitive. Also it gives you the power and the chance to choose and build firstly your Wonder Worlds preferred. Im trying to do this alone, but its not working well :sad:

. So I invoke the experienced CivGods (just kidding, anyone who wants to participate

) to help me. Im sure this help will contribute to improve the game of a great number of players.

These are some issues that confuse me :dunno:

and certainly cause influence in a fast and strong growth:
- Is it better to build settlers and workers just in capitol, or with initial cities or each new city must contribute too?
- Is it ok whipped all your units and buildings? If no, what is the best idea?
- When whipping what is better: as soon as possible or wait till last turn for more overflow?
- Cottages x Farms: how to decide this?
- Granaries x Libraries: what is better to build first?
- Must we choose specialized cities? One how GPFarm, one to construct WW, one to improve the treasury, others to build units, and so on??? If yes, how to make this choice?

Any tips here (to improve the Empire till 1AD) will help me so much and will be very accepted :help:

. I thank your attention :thanx:

.

sossos · Oct 9, 2012

@Falabello

Check the SGOTM threads, you'll find the details of each step there.

Jastrow · Oct 9, 2012

First, to fill in the missing information about. In the real game I had only 29 population at 1AD. Significantly less then in the final tests. Reasons for this include:

-Barb galleys were a pain, and I spend several turns missing seafood tile contributions. (might have cost 2 or 3 pops)

-Not having met enough AI, I could not judge wonder pace, and took HG a bit earlier than I might have needed to (this cost 3 or 4 pop)

-Most imporntantly, the tech pace in the real game was better than in the tests (because we were not isolated), which means that I had more needed techs for infrastructure, which I whiped in some cases, so the "missing" pop at 1AD had already been converted into buildings which would pay back later.

To address your question however, I think you are being a bit harsh on yourself when you say you are far behind. The difference between our two games for example...

I assume you are basically seeing that you have 20% fewer cities, and more imporantly 45% less science, and that is your worry. That is certainly fair, but how big a difference is it really? You missed TGL by two turns (and would have been 5 turns slower than me building it.) Lets pretend you had gotten it (i.e. that the AI had given you two extra turns)...

You had 9 cities. Eeach of these gets two extra trade routes, and at least one of those is an island (since you have two). You also probably have enough AI contacts (at 3) to have 9 AI trade routes. If that is the case, all 18 extra trade routes are worth 2 (maybe 3, but lets say 2). That is 36 extra resources gpt, and with a few of those running through libraries, say 40 bpt. That is over half the research gap.

A little more optimiation would cut most of the rest. My point is that I dont think you need a major change, just a bit of tuning, to your approach.

My first question would be where exactly did you put cities and in which order?

Mine:
1 (Cap): on Marble
2-1E of pig
3-Silver city (1W of fish)
4-1E of stone
5-1E of copper
6-11 (I forget the order)
-SW of gold
-one on each island just SE of capital
-Fish island SW of continent
-NW of rice

Our tech paths were similar, but the one difference that strikes me is that I inserted math earlier (just after writting) which helps the value of chops significantly.

Falabello · Oct 9, 2012

@sossos
thanks for the information. This site became a gigantic library and is easy to get lost in here... I'll try this

.

@jastrow
My difficulty not only refers to this game. In my test game I had GLH, and yet I was not well. In every game I realize that my population and science are always behind. The number of cities is not so important, because it varies greatly. I used this game to post this because I have examples to compare after I play it again. Those questions refer to any game and I always have the same doubts. Here we can see the map, but it was an exception. My problem is repeated in "normal games" with obscure map when you have to explore and discover it. If you can help me, thinking singly in those questions, I'll be very grateful :please:

. Thanks again :thumbsup:

!

Duckweed · Oct 9, 2012

Falabello said:
These are some issues that confuse me and certainly cause influence in a fast and strong growth:
- Is it better to build settlers and workers just in capitol, or with initial cities or each new city must contribute too?

Capital is a major production center for settlers/workers for sure, at least ~3 settlers will come from capital, and 2nd city will usually take the job when it's mature.

- Is it ok whipped all your units and buildings? If no, what is the best idea?

Depends on your happy cap, try to work all great tiles and do the whip as much as possible, especially after you have granary.

- When whipping what is better: as soon as possible or wait till last turn for more overflow?

Again, depends, if you want a Q right after your worker/settler whip, then you might want to delay 1 turn to get more overflows, otherwise, with the support of GLH, the soon the settlers, the better.

- Cottages x Farms: how to decide this?

In this map, you can consider 0 cottage, financial leaders are really strong on working water tiles and there's 0 riverside tile in this map.

- Granaries x Libraries: what is better to build first?

Except that you want a GS, then library 1st might be good, otherwise, granary/LH (growth building) are always better.

- Must we choose specialized cities? One how GPFarm, one to construct WW, one to improve the treasury, others to build units, and so on??? If yes, how to make this choice?

Depends on what type of victory you will pursue, you might want to specialize your city or not. For me, usually capital is almighty.

Any tips here (to improve the Empire till 1AD) will help me so much and will be very accepted . I thank your attention .

For your statistical collection.

Spoiler :

shakabrade · Oct 9, 2012

Golden Age doesn't count.

Fantastic. So much to learn...

sossos · Oct 9, 2012

@Duckweed

Can't agree more especially on "0 cottage" for this map.

@Falabello

I think Duckweed has hit 9 out of 10. However, you'll still see controversy here and there. In SGOTM threads, there are play plans at micro level. After you compare it step by step, you'll find the answers yourself. The devil's in details and the general rule may be applied in different ways under different scenarios.

Jastrow · Oct 10, 2012

@Duckweed,

I know this was intended for the more general question of Falabello, and probably not meant to be over specific, but I am curious about the zero cottage comment on a few details.

1- I thought that cottaging the capital spice was a no-brainer (and work it up to town village level from a helper-city at rice.)

2- Not as clear to me, but I also decided to cottage another couple of tiles to the west of the capital (in part again, helper-city growing them using population from silver site.)

I agree that on this map, I wanted zero non-capital cottages, because I wanted every tile on the island that did not have a resource or a hill to be used for a workshop to get production. However, with the beuraucracy bonus, I though cottaging the Capital was still correct.

Did you see things differently regarding the capital area (Note that this is in terms of planning for a peaceful (space, culture or diplo) game. I would make argument 1 for any game, but would not make argument 2 for conquest/domination)

jesusin · Oct 10, 2012

Not sure if I should be answering after Duckweed did :rolleyes:

Falabello said:
These are some issues that confuse me and certainly cause influence in a fast and strong growth:
- Is it better to build settlers and workers just in capitol, or with initial cities or each new city must contribute too?
Once a city is working its power-tiles, it is not very useful to grow it farther, so it should be building Workers and Settlers as far as they are needed.
By the way, always send a Worker with your Settlers!
- Is it ok whipped all your units and buildings? If no, what is the best idea?
If you have lots of food, few hammers and decent happyness, whip. Don't whip citizens working power-tiles, whip citizens working poor tiles. Generally a mined green hill is slightly better worked than whipped.
- When whipping what is better: as soon as possible or wait till last turn for more overflow?
It depends. Do you have a use for the overflow? Do you have an immediate use for the thing you are whipping? Act accordingly.
- Cottages x Farms: how to decide this?
Specialice your cities. This is a city-by-city decision. Farm your GPFarm, always. Generally cottage your capital, specially if you plan to spend some time in Bureaucracy. For the rest, tend to farm wih Pyramids, tend to cottage with rivers...
- Granaries x Libraries: what is better to build first?
I'm not sure on this one. I generally go Granary first, Library later. When having a superb start and going for CS sling, I've got better results with Library first, Granary later.
- Must we choose specialized cities? One how GPFarm, one to construct WW, one to improve the treasury, others to build units, and so on??? If yes, how to make this choice?
Yes, fore sure. Just look at the map. Use the most fooded one for GPFarm. Use the one with good food and thousands of mines for production city (for units or for WW). Use the one with good food, a couple hills and many green river tiles for commerce.

Any tips here (to improve the Empire till 1AD) will help me so much and will be very accepted . I thank your attention .

sossos · Oct 10, 2012

Jastrow said:
1- I thought that cottaging the capital spice was a no-brainer (and work it up to town village level from a helper-city at rice.)

I would make argument 1 for any game

For culture victory, 1 food is at least eaqual to 30 culture at the Capitol (Sistine + 400% bonus + NE). The spice can also be traded for at least 8~10 commerce.

I still cattage 2 tiles because of health limitation but cottage 0 at Capitol.

Duckweed · Oct 10, 2012

Jastrow said:
@Duckweed,

I know this was intended for the more general question of Falabello, and probably not meant to be over specific, but I am curious about the zero cottage comment on a few details.

1- I thought that cottaging the capital spice was a no-brainer (and work it up to town village level from a helper-city at rice.)

Spice gives 1F2C right from start and a potential resource trade, which is far better than a cottage on it. Even in late stage, the resource trade could gives~15g and 1F > 3B with Representation, which is also far better than a town. Therefore, cottage on a resource is never an option for me.

2- Not as clear to me, but I also decided to cottage another couple of tiles to the west of the capital (in part again, helper-city growing them using population from silver site.)

I agree that on this map, I wanted zero non-capital cottages, because I wanted every tile on the island that did not have a resource or a hill to be used for a workshop to get production. However, with the beuraucracy bonus, I though cottaging the Capital was still correct.

Did you see things differently regarding the capital area (Note that this is in terms of planning for a peaceful (space, culture or diplo) game. I would make argument 1 for any game, but would not make argument 2 for conquest/domination)

If you are looking for a late victory, then let helper city grow some cottages can be considered. However, my 2nd city (the silver site) was used for settlers until ~1AD, so it really does not have spare time to grow any cottage. Moreover, skipping cottages also saved me a lot of worker turns as I only had about 3~4 workers ~1AD.

Jastrow · Oct 10, 2012

Good point on trading the resource. I dont really remember if it applies in this game or not... Part of my reason was that I have two other spices, so one for me, and one to trade. The question is wether two AI's needed spice. If so, then you are correct that cottage was a mistake. If not, then it was still worth considering.

In any event, the fact that I did not check this was certainly a mistake.

To clarify, I also did not have Silver city helping by one AD. At that stage, it was a plan for the future (At 1AD, the capital was still only big enough to be working its lovely, Moai powered, lac and coast squares. I was preparing cottages for let game, population 20, configuration.)

sossos · Oct 10, 2012

Jastrow said:
Good point on trading the resource. I dont really remember if it applies in this game or not...

Maybe it is because you don't play for culture victory in this game. You build so many cities at 1AD. If you have a large empire, you may not care one more resource. My contradiction is mainly about your conclusion of "no brainer" and "any game"

sossos · Oct 10, 2012

@Jesusin

Music race failed by 1 turn. I could have got it!

I got music at the expense of 1 GP. Cyrus is crazy.

I didn't choose to found my own religion because I think it will reduce the rate of religion flipping from AIs. Diplomacy is another concern if you try to make use of your religion. Toku and Nappy are tough guys to please at the beginning. God bless you.

Jastrow · Oct 11, 2012

sossos said:
Maybe it is because you don't play for culture victory in this game. You build so many cities at 1AD. If you have a large empire, you may not care one more resource. My contradiction is mainly about your conclusion of "no brainer" and "any game"

Yes, I agree with you completly. I said "no brainer" and "any game" because that is what I was thinking at the time. The resource income is something I had competly overlooked in factoring the decision.

Thanks to the responces I now realize that is is far from a "no brainer" and that it is certainly game specific. It might still be correct in some cases, but I certainly have to think about it very differnently than I was, so this realization is definitly something which will improove my play

Jastrow · Oct 11, 2012

Falabello, Sossos expressed what I was trying to say much more clearly then I did, so I will repeat his words. The point is indeed that the “devil is in the details”. To your questions above, I would have given similar answers as those Duckweed and Jesusin did, and I suspect you yourself would as well. The biggest difference between your games and contending games (assuming mine are contending) is probably just details, and not something which can be answered two generally.

Take the GLH in this case as a specific example. The fact that you are 5 turns behind me to it, is a difference of 40 bpt for you. So the details that led to you being 5 turns behind there, in this case, would have been a significant fraction of the difference. Add several more of those details, and you get the entire difference.

So, maybe it would be a useful exercise to ask why you are 5 turns slower to GLH…

I have very detailed notes (from my tests, but the game was identical to this point) as to how I made it to GLH. Now, my path may be slightly different than other people used (I went Quencha first, but others, such as Shakabrade where getting the same results with worker first, so both approaches look identical.)

Here is my detailed path to GLH. Where/how did your approach differ? I suspect it will be in details.

4000: Settle on Marble, Fishing, Quencha (using 2F+H tile.)
3800: Start Quencha #2, work spice tile.
3720: Growth, Start workboat, continue working spice to size 3, research mining.
3560: growth. Adjust to max hammer tiles to get workboat in 3 turns.
3440: Send WB to clams, start WB2, work Clams + spice until growth.
3400: Start bronze working
3200: Growth, Adjust tiles to max hammers for WB in 2 turns.
3120: Complete quencha #2, WB to crab, work clams + spice+ 2F3C lake.
3080: Crabs netted, work crabs instead of lake.
2960: Growths, start worker, work clams + crabs+ 2 x 2F3C tiles
2920: start Sailing, revolt to slavery
2880: Whip worker, start WB, send worker to mine sheep.
2680: Adjust tiles to work seafood + mined sheep.
2640: Throw waste production in something like Stonehenge. Adjust tiles for max F + C; send worker to chop forrest S of capital.
2560: Start masonry, start lighthouse.
2520: Put chop in LH, set up timing to two pot whip LH with 29 overflow. (i.e. use 3 turns of: 3 seafood+2F3C, and 1 turn with Sheep instead.)
2480: Worker moves to next chopping forrest
2400: 2Whip LH, overflow into GLH, work seafood + sheep, start wheel.
2360: work 3x seafood (to grow in 2 turns), chop into GLH.
2320: move worker to next chop.
2280: Growth, work 3 seafood + sheep, start settler.
2200: Switch to GLH to receive chop.
2160: Move worker to shop, switch back to settler.
2080: 2whip settler for max overflow into GLH.
2040: Head settler towards Cow-Pig site, Chop into GLH.
2000: GLH is in!

As you can see, there are an awful lot of small details to get there and leaving out a few of these easily pushes you back 5 turns or more.

Falabello · Oct 11, 2012

@sossos
I checked SGOTM threads (GOTM Home Page / C-IV S-GOTM / Discussion Forum) - is it right? I confess that I was completely lost there :blush:

. I don't know the mechanics of that game. I think it will be hard to find the tips I need in the midst of so much information :confused:

! But I'll try again...

@the others
Thanks a lot

! I will read it carefully and try to apply the tips. I'll use them in the next games: GOTM 83 and WOTM 46

!
About the help you are giving me, the more, the better

! Thanks to all again :thumbsup:

!!!

@jastrow
yes, you're right: there's a lot of details. Before I read your detailed path to GLH, I tried again to reach it in 2000BC. With some changes in whipping, I got it in 1920BC, with a Settler and two Quechuas. Now I'll try following your guide. This little difference in turns make a great difference in the whole game. I've read all answers and learn the importance of specialize the cities. With this detailed guide and the answers I can learn so much. It'll be one more step to be competitive here anf reach Deity

. Thanks very much for you and the others that helped me :thumbsup:

!

sossos · Oct 11, 2012

@Falabello

Yes, there are several teams playing the same game, and there may be different opinions in the same team. You may download the save, play yourself and compare with the result from others.

I don't think you'll find a definite answer by reading all of the different thoughts, but I think it's the best way to learn. Especially from the debates in the winner team, we can see how others are thinking which can help us here or there in the game.

BOTM 58 First Spoiler

Ant

Prince

Prince

King

Deity

Prince

Deity

Praise Vivec!

King

Deity

Ant

King

Deity

Deity

King

King

Deity

Deity

Prince

King

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