Boycott Bee!

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Valka D'Ur said:
Then she should have called her a hypocrite and been done with it.
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She could have, but she didn't. Again, the reasoning for this particular word choice is explained here:
Owen Glyndwr said:
Her use of the word was intentionally vile and scandalous to equal the vileness of the literal concentration camps this administration has set up to "handle" immigrant families. Bee's use of the term was unfortunate only inasmuch as it has given people writ large the license to ignore the larger point.
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You are ignoring this part (or at least not explicitly commenting on it), which is why I make certain conclusions:
Valka D'Ur said:
Y'know what? I'm more than tired of people telling me what I said and what I mean, when I am capable of knowing that for myself.
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Your position is valid and legitimate, but you can also admit that there is more nuance and context to this situation?

Valka D'Ur said:
Even mail-order brides get to say "no".
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Ok, but that's not the point? The point is that a rich white man from America holds more social capital and power than an immigrant woman from a poor Eastern European country.

Given Trump's track record (like today's comment that he has the right to pardon himself), it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that Melania might be literally threatened to stay married to Trump. It could be like those mafia girlfriends who can't leave these mafia relationships because the mafia would ruin their lives. Thing is, we don't know what we don't know. I don't feel too bad for Melania, but she is definitely the least despicable person in the entire Trump family.
 
adcarrymaokai said:
She could have, but she didn't. Again, the reasoning for this particular word choice is explained here:
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So every rotten government policy is met with the "c-word"?

Your position is valid and legitimate, but you can also admit that there is more nuance and context to this situation?
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Don't you mean I'm just not parroting the American nuance and context? Or maybe just not the male nuance and context?

I look at this situation from a Canadian viewpoint and from a woman's viewpoint. I may despise everything Ivanka Trump appears to stand for, but she does not deserve to be called that word, and admittedly one of my reasons is because when people accept that it's somehow okay to apply it to her, that makes it okay to apply it to all women who do or say something that somebody disapproves of.

I've been on the receiving end of that word. It's not okay. It doesn't inspire any kind of good will at all, and I despise the people who have used it. I'm also disgusted with the people on this forum (CFC) who have said it's okay.

And some of you wonder why there aren't more women in OT... I'd invited someone yesterday, but I'll have to send another message and say, don't bother. Misogyny is alive and well on CFC.

Ok, but that's not the point? The point is that a rich white man from America holds more social capital and power than an immigrant woman from a poor Eastern European country.
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Yeah, it is the point. At some point in the wedding vows, the bride is allowed to say no, if she really doesn't want the marriage.

Given Trump's track record (like today's comment that he has the right to pardon himself), it wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that Melania might be literally threatened to stay married to Trump. It could be like those mafia girlfriends who can't leave these mafia relationships because the mafia would ruin their lives. Thing is, we don't know what we don't know. I don't feel too bad for Melania, but she is definitely the least despicable person in the entire Trump family.
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I never said she wasn't under constraint to remain in the marriage. She's probably tied up into a financial pretzel if she initiates divorce proceedings or refuses to do anything he tells her (I can just imagine that she was pushing it in the early months and people were remarking at what an absent First Lady she was and how indifferent she was to her new duties), and for sure she would never see her son again.

What I'm talking about is walking into that marriage in the first place.
 
Valka D'Ur said:
Don't you mean I'm just not parroting the American nuance and context? Or maybe just not the male nuance and context?

I look at this situation from a Canadian viewpoint and from a woman's viewpoint.
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I honestly don't think you are much better qualified to provide the "general woman's viewpoint" or "general Canadian's viewpoint" than you are the "American" or "male" viewpoint. I would suggest that you stick to the Valka Viewpoint.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
I honestly don't think you are much better qualified to provide the "general woman's viewpoint" or "general Canadian's viewpoint" than you are the "American" or "male" viewpoint. I would suggest that you stick to the Valka Viewpoint.
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Of course, because all men here know much more about women than women do. :rolleyes: I really despise mansplaining.

I'm more qualified to give a woman's viewpoint than you, or any other male CFC member.
 
Valka D'Ur said:
I'm more qualified to give a woman's viewpoint than you.
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Which it would be great if you would do. In fact, I suggested that giving your viewpoint would be a much better idea than this "all women" and "all Canadian" perspective that you have been trying to pitch.
 
Bamspeedy said:
Since they supposedly sleep in separate beds, I think she has more power in the relationship then some give her credit for. Unless he likes sleeping alone with his cheeseburgers.
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I suspect he sexually assaulted Natasha Stoynoff when he wasn't able to get sex from his seriously pregnant third wife.
 
Valka D'Ur said:
And some of you wonder why there aren't more women in OT... I'd invited someone yesterday, but I'll have to send another message and say, don't bother. Misogyny is alive and well on CFC.
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I don't think it's particularly misogynist to not support that idea that it's never okay to call women, and only women, a certain insulting word. Especially when you factor in the seemingly rather large cultural differences in how that word is used in different countries (which also seems to correlate to at least some degree to the particular posters disagreeing with you). Your argument about it never being received well or inspiring good will seems to bizarrely miss the whole point of insults as well.
 
Does anyone really care about a Trump's feelings tho? Why?
 
Valka D'Ur said:
So every rotten government policy is met with the "c-word"?
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Kathy Griffin posed with Trump's severed head in a photoshoot, which is a little more graphic and shocking than the c-word.

Valka D'Ur said:
Don't you mean I'm just not parroting the American nuance and context? Or maybe just not the male nuance and context?
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Why do you say it's male nuance and context? Samantha Bee is not a man. The opinion piece I posted is also written by a woman.

Genuine misogynists are ok calling Ivanka the c-word because they are misogynist, and many women in the US are ok calling Ivanka Trump the c-word because she is trash. While both of these groups arrive at the same destination, so to speak, their motives and reasons are radically different. That's the nuance.

I would also like to point out that in the US many offensive words have been reclaimed in the 90's and early 2000's. "Queer" is now a commonplace word, and "queer theory" is a legitimate subject, despite certain groups of people still using it as an insult. As far as I know, for the younger generation, the c-word is in many ways also a term of empowerment. The last "Vagina Monologues" I went to, women were chanting the c-word on stage, and they had fun.

There is also this American drag queen who says that the c-word stands for Charisma, Uniqueness, Nerve and Talent.

Valka D'Ur said:
I look at this situation from a Canadian viewpoint and from a woman's viewpoint. I may despise everything Ivanka Trump appears to stand for, but she does not deserve to be called that word, and admittedly one of my reasons is because when people accept that it's somehow okay to apply it to her, that makes it okay to apply it to all women who do or say something that somebody disapproves of.
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Well, the argument I posted from that Medium article narrowly applies to the Bee/Ivanka case, so no, I am not arguing for the widespread use of this insult towards women.

Valka D'Ur said:
I've been on the receiving end of that word. It's not okay. It doesn't inspire any kind of good will at all, and I despise the people who have used it. I'm also disgusted with the people on this forum (CFC) who have said it's okay.
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I am sorry you have been called that, and I also don't really expect CFC to be radically different from other male-dominated spaces.

Valka D'Ur said:
Yeah, it is the point. At some point in the wedding vows, the bride is allowed to say no, if she really doesn't want the marriage.

I never said she wasn't under constraint to remain in the marriage. She's probably tied up into a financial pretzel if she initiates divorce proceedings or refuses to do anything he tells her (I can just imagine that she was pushing it in the early months and people were remarking at what an absent First Lady she was and how indifferent she was to her new duties), and for sure she would never see her son again.

What I'm talking about is walking into that marriage in the first place.
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I don't understand what all of this has to do with my original post. I simply said that out of the entire Trump family, Melania is the least despicable person, and I sometimes feel bad for her. I can simultaneously judge Melania for bad life choices AND feel bad for her.

Timsup2nothin said:
She's trying to play the "an insult to me is an insult to all women, and if you don't like me it means you're a misogynist" card.
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This post of yours is indeed an example of thinly veiled misogyny. You are also mansplaining in another post or two. So yeah, she is onto something here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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adcarrymaokai said:
This post of yours is indeed an example of thinly veiled misogyny. You are also mansplaining in another post or two. So yeah, she is onto something here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Disagreeing with individual women is not misogyny.
 
Timsup2nothin said:
She's trying to play the "an insult to me is an insult to all women, and if you don't like me it means you're a misogynist" card.
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:rolleyes:

As usual, you don't have the first clue about why I post what I post. I never said any of that, and it's not what my posts in this thread mean.

adcarrymaokai said:
I would also like to point out that in the US many offensive words have been reclaimed in the 90's and early 2000's. "Queer" is now a commonplace word, and "queer theory" is a legitimate subject, despite certain groups of people still using it as an insult. As far as I know, for the younger generation, the c-word is in many ways also a term of empowerment. The last "Vagina Monologues" I went to, women were chanting the c-word on stage, and they had fun.
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How nice for them. Is that supposed to make me think it's okay?

As for "queer"... I grew up in a time when that word meant "strange" or "odd." It had nothing to do with sexual orientation or anything related to sex. Fast-forward several decades, and it puts a whole different twist on some of the books I read as a child, when some teenage character would say, "That's queer." (I'd decided to do a re-read of a couple of series before giving them away a couple of years ago).

I am not arguing for the widespread use of this insult towards women.
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That's reassuring.

I am sorry you have been called that, and I also don't really expect CFC to be radically different from other male-dominated spaces.
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In some ways this place has come a long way from when I first joined and was bluntly told, "You can't be a girl, because girls don't play computer games."

However, I'm still told by some people to stay out of threads pertaining to women's issues, because apparently being a woman disqualifies me from commenting on them. So go figure. And I still think this forum needs a "Dear Abby" column for the myriad "how do I get a girlfriend" threads, because it's really tiresome to see the same nonsense posted time and again, year after year. I'd nominate @Owen Glyndwr to host it, because he gives very sensible advice.

I don't understand what all of this has to do with my original post. I simply said that out of the entire Trump family, Melania is the least despicable person, and I sometimes feel bad for her. I can simultaneously judge Melania for bad life choices AND feel bad for her.
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Did I ever say she was in any way despicable? No, I did not. I said she's rather clueless about the duties of a First Lady, but that's not the same as calling her despicable. I also said she was foolish/stupid/dumb to willingly walk into marriage with a known philanderer, but if that's what she wanted, I guess she must have thought the likelihood of not being respected was worth it.

adcarrymaokai said:
This post of yours is indeed an example of thinly veiled misogyny. You are also mansplaining in another post or two. So yeah, she is onto something here. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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It's a typical example of his posts, and has been going on for years. That doesn't mean I excuse such garbage, nor do I respect people who post that "twist the other person's words and present the willful misinterpretation as fact" sort of crap. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to call it what it actually is.
 
NovaKart said:
We don't know that she's been abused, this is pure speculation.
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It's not really. There's no doubt whatever at this point that Trump constantly abuses everyone around him.

Valka D'Ur said:
Is that supposed to make me think it's okay?
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What right do you have to tell other women their use of the word is not okay?
 
Valka D'Ur said:
As usual, you don't have the first clue about why I post what I post. I never said any of that, and it's not what my posts in this thread mean.
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To be fair you did essentially claim that an insult to you (as in something you would find insulting) is an insult to all women. You didn't just say that you personally consider it to be an insult to all women, but also that it's never acceptable, which implies that all women will always find it insulting, even when you're not around to take offence on their behalf.
 
Valka D'Ur said:
Even mail-order brides get to say "no".
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Under threat of imprisonment, deportation, and all manner of abuse.

This is unfortunately common that these women are brought over to "model," and then coerced by all manner of threats to be escorts, and even to become brides for powerful men. I don't think you really understand the situation if you aren't willing to grant these women the empathy of understanding why they don't just say "no."

Y'know what? I'm more than tired of people telling me what I said and what I mean, when I am capable of knowing that for myself.

How's this?

My mother married her second husband, knowing that he had certain personality traits that were not indicative of good character. She walked into that of her own free will. Did she deserve what happened later? No. But nobody held a gun to her head on the day of the wedding.
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I think we all would agree that nobody deserves to be abused by a spouse. But it's really hard to read this as anything other than assigning some responsibility for the terrible outcome to the victim, because she could have prevented it had she better assessed the situation.
 
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