Brave New World's 9 new Civs

[LoneRebel]

Fair enough on this little side conversation you guys are having...but, I think you may be short changing the strength of the Dutch culture in your conclusions. The fact that a group so small maintained independence and thrived in such a war-focused neighborhood of big guys, then managed to pwn the entire SE Asia region is nothing to sneeze at.

Not sure how you would come to the conclusion that they were "shortchanging" the Dutch in any way. And the Dutch didn't "pwn" the entirety of Southeast Asia either.

 

[PhilBowles]

Could still be Anasazi (theoretically). Earlier, I advanced a scenario in which the devs might have set the achievement list prior to Pueblo's ouster, then simply replaced them where they stood in the list with a new civ out of alphabetical order. So, one of the two P-Z slots could actually be anybody in that case.

Italy/Morocco/Cherokee/Vietnam
Indonesia/Morocco/Argentina/Venice

It's a very specific scenario, perhaps not too likely, but it's certainly possible.

Achievements take very little time to set up - I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have finalised the achievements shortly before they became unlocked on Steam. It wouldn't make any sense for them to put them together before the product was finalised, and they've known the Pueblo were out for a long time.

 

[sanpavlos]

Achievements take very little time to set up - I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have finalised the achievements shortly before they became unlocked on Steam. It wouldn't make any sense for them to put them together before the product was finalised, and they've known the Pueblo were out for a long time.

Well, I don't know how their backend processes are set-up. If you do, then fine, I'm wrong. In fact, I fully expect that I am wrong. It's more reasonable than you're giving credit (I've seen this kind of thing in practice), but I don't care to defend it because... I'm sure you're right: I'm wrong.

The point of that scenario isn't to say "this is exactly what happened," the point is to illustrate that there are unknowns which could easily undermine the alphabet/achievement clue. And I think it's worth considering, that's all.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Could still be Anasazi (theoretically). Earlier, I advanced a scenario in which the devs might have set the achievement list prior to Pueblo's ouster, then simply replaced them where they stood in the list with a new civ out of alphabetical order. So, one of the two P-Z slots could actually be anybody in that case.

What would the Anasazi leader be? What language would he speak? The Anasazi are essentially a lost Civilization, the Pueblo claim them as ancestors but that's all we know. Remember why they went to the Pueblo Council in the first place - they could not find a voice actor. If the only voice actor appropriate for an Anasazi leader (of whom we do not know any) speaks a Pueblan language, they still have the same problem.

 

[otaman1]

Pópe might've just been replaced .. or I hope so

 

[Loaf Warden]

Remember why they went to the Pueblo Council in the first place - they could not find a voice actor. If the only voice actor appropriate for an Anasazi leader (of whom we do not know any) speaks a Pueblan language, they still have the same problem.

They didn't abandon the Pueblo because they couldn't find a voice actor; they abandoned them because the Pueblo specifically asked them not to put Popé in a game.

That's immaterial, I think, because the only so-called "evidence" for the Anasazi is an offhand remark by a journalist who wasn't even talking about BNW. But as I recall, finding someone who could speak a Pueblan language was not itself the issue.

 

[Alexander Boney]

Anyway, I think that something like Fascist Italy or the USSR could be added, as there aren't many, if any, European leaders from beyond the 1920's. I think that the Sioux are a likely civ, considering the Civil War scenario, but I think that the Cree/Canada might be a good addition.

Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy
-Ben Franklin

And coconuts are living proof that he's a dick.

 

[Louis XXIV]

They didn't abandon the Pueblo because they couldn't find a voice actor; they abandoned them because the Pueblo specifically asked them not to put Popé in a game.

Well, no. They couldn't find a voice actor, which is why they contacted the Pueblo Council. The Pueblo Council objected to the inclusion of Pope. They never said they solved their problem of finding a voice actor.

 

[Menzies]

And coconuts are living proof that he's a dick.

...and Bananas, Cattle and pretty much every crop and cultivated livestock on the planet is living proof we are better designers than him, even working from a more limited toolbox.

 

[Seek]

Regarding the Anasazi comment - before the Pueblo were removed, there had to have been some guy thinking about pottery fragments and how to make a UA or whatever out of them. Doesn't mean they're not out, which was all but confirmed at the Pax panel.
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Regarding the alphabet theory, G&K had Boudicca in a totally different spot than the rest of the civs so it's not 100%. Although BNW's achievements look to be much more organized, so I'm not saying we'll get a civ out of order (I'd laugh heartily if we do).
___

Am I the only one who thinks they'll add another western NA tribe to replace the Pueblo? Ute maybe? A northwestern tribe would be awesome imo.

 

[ripple01]

With the almost certain unveiling of Morocco tomorrow, we are down to 3 final spots for new civs.

We know that one of the three is European.

I'd like to point out that none of the leaders revealed so far for BNW have been female. G&K was heavy on females, but I would find it pretty unlikely that BNW would not have at least one female leader. I think we can use this fact to narrow down the choices for the last civs.

The general consensus for the main two remaining European civs are Italy and Hungary. To my knowledge, there are no notable female leaders for either civ.

I am not familiar with any notable female Native American leaders (they really wouldn't put Pocahontas in would they? Just....no.)

So, we must ask, who are civs being talked about that have a notable female leader? Only one immediately comes to mind: Vietnam. The Trung Sisters are national heroes for Vietnam and it would give Firaxis an opportunity to do something they've never done before to my knowledge: Have two leaders in one leaderscreen.

 

[Loaf Warden]

I'd like to point out that none of the leaders revealed so far for BNW have been female. G&K was heavy on females, but I would find it pretty unlikely that BNW would not have at least one female leader.

There is at least one, unless you know something about Portuguese history that I don't. . . .

 

[brhlbryce]

I'd like to point out that none of the leaders revealed so far for BNW have been female.

Are you MAD? Like Maria?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Maria I of Portugal is BNW's only known female leader.

notable Native leaders:
Osceola - Seminoles
Sitting Bull - Sioux
Tecumseh - Shawnee
Quanah Parker - Comanche
Geronimo - Apache
John Ross - Cherokee

 

[sukritact]

Maria I of Portugal is BNW's only known female leader.

If Italy is in, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect Queen Margherita, Caterina Sforza, or Lucrezia Borgia.

Personally, I'd want Caterina of the three; she is amazing in Assassin's Creed II

 

[ImperialChaos]

If Italy is in, it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect Queen Margherita, Caterina Sforza, or Lucrezia Borgia.

Personally, I'd want Caterina of the three; she is amazing in Assassin's Creed II

Yeah, you really get to know her.

If Italy is chosen I don't think they'll go the female route. Maybe with the Asian civilization, though. Female leaders in Asia are underrepresented so far. Just Wu.

 

[Leugi]

Still hoping for Venice myself... (and the Inuit)...

I still doubt they'd talk so much about the Pueblo if they didn't scrap the idea...

...and Bananas, Cattle and pretty much every crop and cultivated livestock on the planet is living proof we are better designers than him, even working from a more limited toolbox.

So, we humans are sort of great modders now!

 

[blackcatatonic]

There's a good chance that if we get either Indonesia or Vietnam, there'll be another female leader there, as both have good and interesting candidates.

If they add Lucrezia Borgia I will not be impressed.

 

[PhilBowles]

Well, I don't know how their backend processes are set-up. If you do, then fine, I'm wrong. In fact, I fully expect that I am wrong. It's more reasonable than you're giving credit (I've seen this kind of thing in practice), but I don't care to defend it because... I'm sure you're right: I'm wrong.

The point of that scenario isn't to say "this is exactly what happened," the point is to illustrate that there are unknowns which could easily undermine the alphabet/achievement clue. And I think it's worth considering, that's all.

I admit this is an inference on my part based on my experience with the DLC system - there can often be very little time between work apparently begins on a DLC and the addition of achievements.

Either way, it makes no sense to settle on the achievements until enough of the game is finalised to know which achievements will be in - a civ that's taken out of the game doesn't just create one 'achievement gap', almost every civ has at least one other achievement beyond "win the game" specific to that civ. We also have no reason to believe the Pueblo were the only civ removed from BNW in the planning stages - they were explicitly described as an example of the way civs can be removed during the game design process. Similar things have probably happened in prior expansions with no 'achievement gaps' resulting.

EDIT: Somebody's suggested the Celts are out of place in the G&K order, however it strikes me as unlikely that the Celts would have been a 'substitute' civ since they're a returning civ that fits the game's theme, so the explanation there is quite likely different.

I'd like to point out that none of the leaders revealed so far for BNW have been female. G&K was heavy on females, but I would find it pretty unlikely that BNW would not have at least one female leader. I think we can use this fact to narrow down the choices for the last civs.

it's been noted that they have Maria. We know they'll stretch to get a female leader if a civ they've chosen has a possible option (see Maria), but that doesn't imply that whether there's a female leader factors into their decision when including a civ. I'm not sure there are any civs in Civ IV you can point to and say they're unlikely to have been considered if they have no possible female leaders.

The general consensus for the main two remaining European civs are Italy and Hungary. To my knowledge, there are no notable female leaders for either civ.

Hungary seems unlikely - it doesn't explain the apparent absence of Venice from the BNW CS list, and it's been suggested that Bratislava may rule it out.

I am not familiar with any notable female Native American leaders (they really wouldn't put Pocahontas in would they? Just....no.)

Irrelevant. The inclusion of a Native American civ has the strongest evidence of any option for the final three civs, since we've seen a unit with a Native American graphic. We don't know why it's been seen with barbarian colours, but it's too specific not just to Native Americans but to a particular group of Native Americans to plausibly be a generic barbarian unit. This is the only evidence we have for any unique associated with any of the three remaining civs, with the more ambiguous exception of the motte and bailey (which has not been seen in any actual gameplay screenshot).

So, we must ask, who are civs being talked about that have a notable female leader? Only one immediately comes to mind: Vietnam. The Trung Sisters are national heroes for Vietnam and it would give Firaxis an opportunity to do something they've never done before to my knowledge: Have two leaders in one leaderscreen.

Indonesia apparently also has notable female leaders from what's been said in past threads, though I don't recall who.

I still think we may be dismissing the "joke" about the definition of European civs too readily. We were asked "what do you mean by European?" with the options:

European civ: Venice or Italy likely.
Eurasian landmass: Possibly a reference to Morocco, a non-European civ culturally with territory in Iberia.
Culturally European: No suggestions. But if the other two 'teasers' are taken, this one might be. Considering a Native American civ as being culturally European is a stretch for any time period we'd expect Native Americans to represent (unless perhaps the civ is the Cherokee). That seems to leave the mystery civ. Colombia is contentious, but may fit the alphabet. Canada is less contentious and also fits. The Philippines would add an Asian civ, and fills in part of the SE Asian geographic gap while fitting the "culturally European" criterion to a degree, but would be a truly bizarre choice.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Just a thought: The 34 strength UU could be a Camel Cavalry for Morocco. They still have a Camel Corps even today.