Brave New World's 9 new Civs

[Dragonflow]

Is there even some kind of gameplay niche Belgium could fill?
I just don't know what they could specialize on. Maybe World Congress?
Even I would be pretty disappointed if Belgium is added and I was one of the people advocating Austria the moment G&K was announced.

 

[SkaisonFire]

I could see them introducing more "modern" civs like brazil,as they said in the demo that they were focussing more on the late game as were in G&K they worked on the early- and midgame

 

[SolInvictus]

Fair enough. I think your speculation list is pretty solid nevertheless and is similar to my list here except with the assumption of more Eurocentrism from the devs - the only one I'd be iffy on is Belgium, but they've done stranger things in the Civ series. Also a potential native American civ to replace the Pueblo which they cut, you might want to consider that - I'm pretty sure they're going to have one if they said they were about to add the Pueblo in the first place.

I think your list is quite solid too. I'd love to see the Navajo or Sioux--I sometimes play the Iroquois as the Caddo--but I suspect that Pueblo weren't replaced. I know Belgium is iffy, that's why I fear it could be a dark horse. I'd much rather have the Cherokee, Moche/Chimu, or Mapuche than Leopold II greedy beard trying to make my lands his personal colony the entire game. I think Leoplold is the best potential block against a Belgian dark horse, but I still have an uneasiness about it.

 

[cybrxkhan]

I think your list is quite solid too. I'd love to see the Navajo or Sioux--I sometimes play the Iroquois as the Caddo--but I suspect that Pueblo weren't replaced. I know Belgium is iffy, that's why I fear it could be a dark horse. I'd much rather have the Cherokee, Moche/Chimu, or Mapuche than Leopold II greedy beard trying to make my lands his personal colony the entire game. I think Leoplold is the best potential block against a Belgian dark horse, but I still have an uneasiness about it.

Out of curiosity, what makes you suspect the Pueblo weren't replaced? I would think that the fact that the devs bothered to work quite a bit on adding a native american civ makes it very obvious that they'd be trying to add one.

 

[Dragonflow]

I think your list is quite solid too. I'd love to see the Navajo or Sioux--I sometimes play the Iroquois as the Caddo--but I suspect that Pueblo weren't replaced. I know Belgium is iffy, that's why I fear it could be a dark horse. I'd much rather have the Cherokee, Moche/Chimu, or Mapuche than Leopold II greedy beard trying to make my lands his personal colony the entire game. I think Leoplold is the best potential block against a Belgian dark horse, but I still have an uneasiness about it.

His beard does give him a chance of being in BNW.
I just can't imagine them having a Belgian dark-horse, when there are some far better civs to add even in the industrial/modern era.

 

[SolInvictus]

Out of curiosity, what makes you suspect the Pueblo weren't replaced? I would think that the fact that the devs bothered to work quite a bit on adding a native american civ makes it very obvious that they'd be trying to add one.

The tone of the presentation at PAX made it seem to me like it was something that they were still grieving, a might-have-been that was now lost. That's just my impression, I could easily be wrong. I haven't been able to find the part of the PAX video where they talk about Pope and the Pueblo since I watched the live stream.

 

[ehecatzin]

They also talked about how much it took them to make a leader screen, what was it about 10 weeks?

I imagine they would have gone to get the Pueblo feedback BEFORE doing the bulk of the work of the animation, its just common sense.

Now that they had to take Popé out, they probably settled for another leader that the council found suitable.

I dont think they had to throw out that much work away, Im positive the Pueblo are still in.

But lets assume they had to take the Pueblo out, another native Civ would have to take its place, why would they let us know they planned to add a native civ, if only to replace it with say, Belgium?

Worst case scenario, we still get a native civ from the area, either Comanche, Apache or Sioux.

 

[ferretbacon]

Honest question: is there even anything iconic enough in Belgian history to form the UUs/UB/UI?

 

[ehecatzin]

Honest question: is there even anything iconic enough in Belgian history to form the UUs/UB/UI?

The Belgium proponents mention their role as seat of the EU, as something that could translate to the world congress mechanic.

 

[SolInvictus]

His beard does give him a chance of being in BNW.
I just can't imagine them having a Belgian dark-horse, when there are some far better civs to add even in the industrial/modern era.

I think not imagining it sort of makes it more likely to be a dark horse. Remember the freakout and speculation over the Attila's Court screen shot? Traditionally dark horses tend to bump other civs considered "more worthy" out of the expansion pack put fit following a very narrow logic of a scenario or theme. In G&K Sweden got in to a religion focused expansion pack due to the role it played in the 30 Year War, while the Moors which passed on Classical learning back to Europe and expanded Islam into Western Europe and Hungary served as a bulwark against an Islamic invasion for centuries and was the first country to adopt the Italian Renaissance were both excluded. Not to mention the drumbeat of it can't be another European civ. That said, I love Sweden. However, the nature of dark horses is that they fit, surprise, and spoil. Belgium fits all of those criteria. :/

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

With Brazil, they surprised everyone with the UU and UI. They are definitely willing to go oblique in their choices.

I can imagine that Belgium could have a similar relationship to the WC as the Byzantines do to religion.

 

[steveg700]

Honest question: is there even anything iconic enough in Belgian history to form the UUs/UB/UI?

Belgium? Waffles, Jean-Cluade Van Damme, and a Monty Python skit are all that spring to mind.

 

[SolInvictus]

They also talked about how much it took them to make a leader screen, what was it about 10 weeks?

I imagine they would have gone to get the Pueblo feedback BEFORE doing the bulk of the work of the animation, its just common sense.

Now that they had to take Popé out, they probably settled for another leader that the council found suitable.

I dont think they had to throw out that much work away, Im positive the Pueblo are still in.

But lets assume they had to take the Pueblo out, another native Civ would have to take its place, why would they let us know they planned to add a native civ, if only to replace it with say, Belgium?

Worst case scenario, we still get a native civ from the area, either Comanche, Apache or Sioux.

I don't really think they were replaced, I think they were originally a tenth civ. That said, I'd love to be wrong.

 

[ferretbacon]

Belgian chocolate, that's a thing, right?

Belgian Chocolate Factory: replaces the factory. No extra production, just a lot of happiness.

 

[Scaramanga]

Belgium was one if the cradles of modern capitalism and industrialization.

 

[Dragonflow]

The Belgium proponents mention their role as seat of the EU, as something that could translate to the world congress mechanic.

Wait a minute!
There are actual Belgium supporters?

I think not imagining it sort of makes it more likely to be a dark horse. Remember the freakout and speculation over the Attila's Court screen shot? Traditionally dark horses tend to bump other civs considered "more worthy" out of the expansion pack put fit following a very narrow logic of a scenario or theme. In G&K Sweden got in to a religion focused expansion pack due to the role it played in the 30 Year War, while the Moors which passed on Classical learning back to Europe and expanded Islam into Western Europe and Hungary served as a bulwark against an Islamic invasion for centuries and was the first country to adopt the Italian Renaissance were both excluded. Not to mention the drumbeat of it can't be another European civ. That said, I love Sweden. However, the nature of dark horses is that they fit, surprise, and spoil. Belgium fits all of those criteria. :/

Yes, but at least you can easily come up with a UA/UU/UB for Sweden and the Huns. Both civs had periods of clear dominance as well, but I can't think of a time when Belgium dominated it's neighbours.

 

[SolInvictus]

Honest question: is there even anything iconic enough in Belgian history to form the UUs/UB/UI?

First, off let me say that I really don't want Belgium in the game at the expense of another civ, it's just a suspicion on my part.

A civ might work like this:

Leader: Leopold II (bad bad bearded man) though Baudouin or Leopold I could work
UU: some sort of resistance unit, 80 Years War unit, or this thing:
UB: Guild Hall +gold, production, and culture
UA; Capital of Europe? +1 vote in the world congress

That said, please don't put Belgium in.

 

[Dragonflow]

First, off let me say that I really don't want Belgium in the game at the expense of another civ, it's just a suspicion on my part.

A civ might work like this:

Leader: Leopold II (bad bad bearded man) though Baudouin or Leopold I could work
UU: some sort of resistance unit, 80 Years War unit, or this thing:

UB: Guild Hall +gold, production, and culture
UA; Capital of Europe? +1 vote in the world congress

That said, please don't put Belgium in.

I'd give them a Flemish Pikeman UU, they were pretty famous IIRC.

Oh god, Belgium can actually work as a civ....I am truly scared now...

 

[SolInvictus]

Wait a minute!
There are actual Belgium supporters?



Yes, but at least you can easily come up with a UA/UU/UB for Sweden and the Huns. Both civs had periods of clear dominance as well, but I can't think of a time when Belgium dominated it's neighbours.

You are forgetting the great Belgian Empire which spanned from Antwerp to Ypres.

I think there are much better choices than Belgium, I just think it could be our unwanted dark horse. It fits the diplomatic, trade, and Scramble for Africa. I'm not advocating for their inclusion, I think it's possible given what we know so far. It didn't dominate Europe, but it did dominate the Congress of Berlin, which is how it would up with such a significant piece of African for such a small country. When you take into account the Belgian Congo (aka Congo Free State/Democratic Republic of Congo/Congo-Kinshasa/Zaire) in terms of area, Belgium was just as large or larger than Sweden or the Hunnic Pax during the Scramble for Africa and was a major diplomatic player.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Has Assyria been confirmed, or is it just very strong speculation?

Out of the other 7, I think the best bets are (in decreasing order of certainty):
1. Zulu - the certainest of dead certs.
2. Portugal - again, pretty likely. I think the only reason they didn't make it into G&K is because they occupy a similar niche to the Dutch.
3. Brazil - we're due another modern Civ, and with Portugal included, the most obvious choice is Brazil - huge economy, and particularly handy for the tourism thing.
4. Sioux - another Native American Civ is obviously needed for Civil War scenario purposes; the Sioux seem to be the best candidate.
5. Indonesia/Mahapajit - again quite a good candidate based on tourism and culture. I could see the Khmer occupying this spot instead, but I think a South-East Asian Civ is quite likely.
6. Kongo/Mali - with the Scramble for Africa scenario, there's room for another African Civ. Mali have been in Civ before, but Kongo are probably more likely. I'd love to see a North African Civ like Morocco, the Moors, etc. but wouldn't bet on it.
7. Hittites/Phoenicians - I think there's room for another ancient Civ even if Assyria are confirmed.

Revised my thoughts a bit since the other day, since the addition of Brazil and the other tidbits that have trickled through:

1. Zulu - still expect them to be in.
2. Portugal - likewise. Brazil's inclusion if anything makes it more likely we will see Portugal as well, aside from the fact that the trade routes thing seems ideal for them.
3. A Native American Civ - I'm now less certain that this will be the Sioux. Good cases have been made for the Comanche, and there are other possibilities such as the Navajo or Cherokee (the latter being actually involved in the Civil War to some degree). But the whole Pueblogate thing makes it all seem even more likely that they've been thinking along the right geographical lines.
4. Indonesia/Majapahit - I don't think they are as much of a dark horse as some people have been suggesting. I'm confident a South East Asian Civ will be added and I think they are stronger candidates than Vietnam (who would be my next guess). Another trading/tourism Civ
5. Kongo - this is where I start to get a lot less certain, but it seems like another African Civ would be a logical choice as a scenario tie-in. The Kongo Empire was pretty huge and lasted for many centuries, aside from their links with the Portuguese, so they seem like the most likely choice.
6. The 'dark horse' spot, which I am very tentatively going to award to Canada. Brazil's inclusion has shown that modern/ex-colonial Civs are a really possibility. The clue's in the name: Brave 'New' World. I'm only about 20% sure about this one, but I think with their longer history of colonisation and the (albeit vague) possibility of integrating the Inuit culture into the Civ somehow, Canada slightly edges it over other contenders. But who knows?

Other possibilities for the 'dark horse' slot:
- Australia - see above. My next best 'modern' Civ guess.
- Belgium - definitely had a role to play in the Scramble for Africa, but other than that, I'm not sure I see them as worthy of full-Civ status compared to some of the others we're missing
- Vietnam, possibly as well as the Indonesians/Majapahit
- Mexico - not likely I'll grant you, but who knows?
- The Timurids/another Silk Road Civ - would be really neat, and fits with the trade routes, but I just don't know if they're well-known enough.

And some frequently discussed options that I think have very little chance:
- Israel - perfect as a City-State, potentially controversial (although, as I've said elsewhere, I could see a King David-era ancient Israel working - I just don't think Firaxis will go there)
- Phoenicia - somewhat subsumed by Carthage
- Sumeria - Assyria + Ur as a CS more or less rules them out
- Hittites - possibly too similar to Assyria? I'd still love to see them but don't see it happening
- Italy - I can see that there's a case for them, but their inclusion feels surplus to requirements, and the Italian City-States are fine as exactly that: City-States.