Brave New World's 9 new Civs

[ImperialChaos]

Well, my argument would be that he was the Holy Roman Emperor, but for some reason people argue that his empire still wasn't the Holy Roman Empire, but a Carolingian/Frankish Empire.

Seeing as his HRE more or less vanished until Otto started a new lineage he is more equated to his success as a Frankish king than a Holy Roman Emperor.

 

[Kerath]

Sorry, my bad. I totally forgot civs won't be necessarily limited about history's coherence. Germany is surely a nice example to remember. Well, in that case I place my bet on Lorenzo, just because of that appearance in the intro of G+K.

 

[DeutschDachs]

Speaking of Holy Roman Emperors I would be pretty pleased if they could manage to sneak Charles IV in there somehow in a future version

 

[WChrisMullen]

I would also be interested in bringing back multiple leaders. I kind of miss being able to play as Henry VIII from my Civ II days.

 

[PhilBowles]

Well Boudicca is one of the most well-known Celts in history amongst lay people. Possibly even more so than Brennus. She's been in the Civ series 3 times, as much as all other Celt leaders (Brennus 2, Cunobeline 1). I don't think her being the female option in Civ II makes her a "secondary" option like Sacajawea or Elanor Roosevelt.

Three? I'd thought she was only in Civs II and IV, the former as the token female leader and the latter an extra leader added in an expansion. Given that the Civ II Celts had Gallic cities and a Gallic leader, and that in that context Boudicca was as an appropriate a leader choice as Maria Theresa was for Germany, I'd say she was very definitely a 'token' leader like most of the other female options rather than the primary choice.

[rant]The citizens of the Empire referred to themselves as Romans, but historians call them something different! What? Remember the joke about the HRE? They weren't Holy, they weren't Roman, and they weren't an Empire. But we still refer to them as what they called themselves, the Holy Roman Empire. But we don't for the Romans? Ugh.[/rant]

The citizens never did call themselves Romans or Imperial - if they used a national collective noun at all it was German, even before the state's 'rebranding' as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Charlemagne's conquest was called the Carolingean Empire - the name Empire stuck long after Carolingean was dropped, but Holy wasn't added for another couple of centuries, and Roman for a century or two after that.

 

[Xen]

You've been playing too much Rome: Total War. Your characterisation of Macedonian hoplites is correct, but the name "hoplite" comes from the shield, not the weapon load or the soldiers' background. "Phalangite" as a unit name is a neologism used in games like Total War to add variety to unit names, not a real name for a type of soldier (or rather, it was a real name for a soldier deployed in a phalanx, but it was not a term used to the exclusion of the term 'hoplite') - in reality hoplites also used phalanx formations (and "phalangtes" used hopla), and Greek spear-and-shield infantry were described at the time as 'hoplites' regardless of city-state. i.e. "hoplite" and "phalangite" are not mutually exclusive designations, in the same way that - say - "archer" and "skirmisher" are names that can be applied to a single unit that's both armed with bows and operates in a particular formation. I agree that the unit graphic is that of a more classically Spartan hoplite, but it's entirely correct to describe the Macedonian soldiers as hoplites.

No, It's called a degree in classical archaeology - and if you want to get technical, the term "hoplon" only means "tool" (a reference to it being a 'tool' of war; or more obliquely, the soldiers as a tool of the city state.) aspis is the proper name for the shield they carried, and it is the usage of the word 'hoplon' in English as word for a Greek shield that is the neologism.

 

[VermelhoRed]

Three? I'd thought she was only in Civs II and IV, the former as the token female leader and the latter an extra leader added in an expansion. Given that the Civ II Celts had Gallic cities and a Gallic leader, and that in that context Boudicca was as an appropriate a leader choice as Maria Theresa was for Germany, I'd say she was very definitely a 'token' leader like most of the other female options rather than the primary choice.

[rant]The citizens of the Empire referred to themselves as Romans, but historians call them something different! What? Remember the joke about the HRE? They weren't Holy, they weren't Roman, and they weren't an Empire. But we still refer to them as what they called themselves, the Holy Roman Empire. But we don't for the Romans? Ugh.[/rant]

The citizens never did call themselves Romans or Imperial - if they used a national collective noun at all it was German, even before the state's 'rebranding' as the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation. Charlemagne's conquest was called the Carolingean Empire - the name Empire stuck long after Carolingean was dropped, but Holy wasn't added for another couple of centuries, and Roman for a century or two after that.

Carolingian dynasty of Francia/Frankia, a.k.a. Frankish Empire.

 

[sukritact]

Granted, it's possibly unfair to put Ramkhaehaeng in the same boat as the others, and I suspect if you asked the Thais they'd probably rank him high on the list of good leader candidates (while if you asked the French, chances are they would name a dozen leaders they'd rather have than Joan).

The newly issued 20 Baht bill features him on the reverse; Thai's consider him one of the greatest kings in Siamese history. In addition to the "Father Governs Children", he's also credited as the inventor of the Thai Alphabet.

Although to be frank, people tend to ignore the fact that all this history is based of a stele that could either be fake or glorified. I see absolutely no reason to consider him the inventor of the Thai alphabet either.

Basically he's semi-mythical but no one thinks of it like that.

 

[Moraiwe]

Prussia is different because the Prussians were instrumental in the creation of the German state. Venice was not. If Venice had unified Italy and called it Venice, that would be analogous. Venice would be analogous to Austria had Anschluss not been reversed after WWII. It's culturally distinct from other Italian cities, it has a unique political system, it has a different dialect (even if mutually intelligible), and, in no way, can Italy be seen as a direct successor to Venice.

Just wanted to point out that Venetian isn't an Italian dialect, it's a language in it's own right. Though I have read somewhere that Standard Italian has up to 15% of it's vocabulary taken from Venetian (sadly can't remember source).

 

[Sleepwalker91]

Guys, a bunch of non-playable city states with Italian names on them does not ACTUALLY represent Italy in the game... the only problem deriving from adding Italy to the game would be having two Romes, but since we have two Istanbuls already, who cares?

IMHO Italy would be a sad exclusion from an expansion implementing great works and revamped culture :/

 

[Scaramanga]

Guys, a bunch of non-playable city states with Italian names on them does not ACTUALLY represent Italy in the game... the only problem deriving from adding Italy to the game would be having two Romes, but since we have two Istanbuls already, who cares?

IMHO Italy would be a sad exclusion from an expansion implementing great works and revamped culture :/

So a leader screen is going to make Italy?

To me city-states are better if you consider that Venice can either be:

a) An empire itself ( in which case no Italy)
b) A city-state
c) A name on Italy's city list

If anything Team Italy and Team Venice should be mortal enemies as denial of one is denial of the other. Venice is made lower than a city-state on Italy's city list.

By the way, you can summon Italy into the game by entering the following commands:

Start game as Rome. Change your name to Enrico Dandolo/de Medici/Victor Emmanuelle/Caesar/Whatever. Play as Rome accordingly. Ally with any Italian city-states. Adopt Patronage. Create some Great Works of Art. Build Pisa. Build Sistine Chapel. Build Uffizzi. Adopt Autocracy. Destroy Ethiopia (after a few tries).

Bam. Italy.

 

[Menzies]

Well, my argument would be that he was the Holy Roman Emperor, but for some reason people argue that his empire still wasn't the Holy Roman Empire, but a Carolingian/Frankish Empire.

EDIT: I have a similar problem when people refer to the medieval and Renaissance Roman Empire as the Byzantine Empire.

[rant]The citizens of the Empire referred to themselves as Romans, but historians call them something different! What? Remember the joke about the HRE? They weren't Holy, they weren't Roman, and they weren't an Empire. But we still refer to them as what they called themselves, the Holy Roman Empire. But we don't for the Romans? Ugh.[/rant]

EDIT2: I know I probably annoyed a ton of history geeks and historians with my rant.

I've discussed this on here before. Holy Roman Emperor was a title, but Charlemagne's Empire wasn't the Holy Roman Empire. There's is some debate about whether or not it is correct to call his Empire the "Holy Roman Empire" at that point, but there is no debate at all that he had that title and was the first to have it. His Empire was very different to the Holy Roman Empire that most would think about as well.

From a game perspective, there really isn't anything wrong with a "Holy Roman Empire" with Charlemagne as the leader, it just isn't the "Holy Roman Empire" of Otto and his successors as such.

 

[Menzies]

Carolingian dynasty of Francia/Frankia, a.k.a. Frankish Empire.

Francia is the correct spelling by the way, but it should be pronounced as "Frankia". That's true of many words from before the time of the English language in fact, but in English the confusion between hard and soft 'C's leads to all sorts of problems. My person favourites are Macedonia (which should be pronounced Makedonia), Celts (which should be pronounced Kelts) and Caesar (which should be pronounced Kaesar). Of course, apart from Celts as Kelts, the other two sound utterly silly to most English speakers (much as most would pronounce Francia as Fran-sia) and this was the case even for 18th and 19th century English speakers.

 

[Loaf Warden]

Given that the Civ II Celts had Gallic cities and a Gallic leader, and that in that context Boudicca was as an appropriate a leader choice as Maria Theresa was for Germany, I'd say she was very definitely a 'token' leader like most of the other female options rather than the primary choice.

The Civ II Celts were explicitly British Isles Celts. The male leader was Cunobelin, the capital was Cardiff (and other cities included Armagh, Tintagel, and Kells), and on the Earth map, they started in Ireland (despite having a Welsh capital; presumably Cardiff was just too close to London to be workable). The Celts were not made Gallic until Civ III. As the female option in Civ II, Boudicca was the logical choice, not a token.

 

[InsanelyApple]

Francia is the correct spelling by the way, but it should be pronounced as "Frankia". That's true of many words from before the time of the English language in fact, but in English the confusion between hard and soft 'C's leads to all sorts of problems. My person favourites are Macedonia (which should be pronounced Makedonia), Celts (which should be pronounced Kelts) and Caesar (which should be pronounced Kaesar). Of course, apart from Celts as Kelts, the other two sound utterly silly to most English speakers (much as most would pronounce Francia as Fran-sia) and this was the case even for 18th and 19th century English speakers.

I'm a native English speaker and I pronunce Celts and Kelts. Selts just sound weird and I have never heard anyone say that.

 

[Hans Castorp]

I'm a native English speaker and I pronunce Celts and Kelts. Selts just sound weird and I have never heard anyone say that.

Yes, apart from the pronunication of Celtic football club.

 

[sukritact]

I'm a native English speaker and I pronunce Celts and Kelts. Selts just sound weird and I have never heard anyone say that.

Native Bilingual, I pronounce it Kelts myself. The game also uses Kelts for what it's worth.

 

[God of Kings]

I pronounce it as "Kelt," even in the context of the Celtic football club and the Boston Celtics NBA team.

 

[SnowKomodo]

I pronounce it as "Kelt," even in the context of the Celtic football club and the Boston Celtics NBA team.

...you pronounce it 'Boston Keltics?' smh

 

[shaglio]

I pronounce it as "Kelt," even in the context of the Celtic football club and the Boston Celtics NBA team.

A travesty!!!

Besides, according to the Merriam Webster Dictionary in my desk drawer, both Kelt and Selt are acceptable.