BRIEFING for FIRST Meeting with KISS

[fe3333au]

I just want to put every one in the overall full picture


Firstly I have Received This PM

1st meeting & deal <MINUTES.ZIP>

To sum up
Kiss receives Alpha & IW
Mia receives CB, WC, & 1gpt for 20 turns

Movement on the thread ... lots of Chamnix, Peter_Grimes and I e-mail and PM and end up AIMing
>Chamnix enters meeting

Meeting Starts
>Kentharu
>Chamnix
>>Whomp
>>Bebe
>>Tubby Rower

So through AIM ... I am kept informed from Chamnix
... I post on thread

Later Chamnix opens an AIM Chat

AIM Whispers
>Chamnix
>fe3333au
>Peter_Grimes

So we got discussions happening with bits of info we get from Chamnix and also Kentharu on the main thread ...

Later Emp.Napoleon join us in the Room of Whispers ... and later still the main meeting

KISS have also bolstered up their numbers

MAIN Meeting
>Kentharu
>Chamnix
>Emp.Napoleon
>>Whomp
>>Bebe
>>Tubby Rower
>>4 others

*Nikodeemus is KISS

So your Foreign Minister has thredas opened ... AIMS poppin up everywhere and suddenly ... after the meeting was told I am alseep ... Nikodeemus AIMs me ... damn

I just woke up to see how meeting went ... yawn

Oh said he ... it is still going

Bloomin Heck say I

Blah Blah Blah later <don't worry I have kept transcript>

They too are frustrated ... I say we have a good team and ultimately Kentharu is our diplomat and has the power

Our Prez turns up in the Whispers Room ...

3-4 hours in VR ... Deal struck

see above

But this was mentioned 2 hours ago ... so we got to do something

I am just rambling atm 5.00am ... but a lot of behind the scenes ... and I think we got a bloody good deal

Well done !!!

 

[Chamnix]

Just some quick notes -

We told them we had no other contacts. I think we need to come clean about Donuts ASAP. As I understand it, we cannot actually trade contacts until Printing Press. Will Donuts and KISS be able to speak to each other even if we admit contacts? I'm just hoping KISS doesn't get the opportunity to discuss when we met the Donuts.

We did promise them Masonry and Mysticism (my fault it was those 2 - I threw them out just because they were the first 2 I saw with the same price) for Writing. I don't know how to rate our chances of beating them (they have 7 citizens to our 5, but they have a granary=1 gpt maintenance and they are paying us 1 gpt), but I would think they would be thrilled to accept Masonry and the Wheel instead if necessary.

I'm not sure how this deal will go down anyway once we tell them we know the Donuts, and they have writing.

 

[ybbor]

okay, for those of us not there (where was there anyway, i couldn't find out, was it aim or msn?), and don't want to wade through 4 pages of long text, did anything important happen besides alphabet and iron working for cereonial burial warrior, and gold. I think i saw something about one of us researching writing? can someone expand? please?

 

[Kentharu]

well other than that there is teh possiblity of an alliance, or atleast peace for a long time
also we are going to go for republic together, we won't research writing anymore (since they think they are better than us) but we are doing masonary and mysticism for them, then we will trade techs without any discussion
i think they might have contact with D-nut, they talked about them a lot so my guess is they saw D-nuts ship first and might know we have contact that is why we MUST
come clean with them, if we do it will show them we are honest and force them to do the same

 

[peter grimes]

@Kentharu: I just wrote (and lost) a lengthy speech about how well you handled this first meeting. They were really quite misbehaved... uncivilized... people speaking up, clamoring to be heard, and all the while you were able to stay focussed and look out for our interests. You did a great job. In the future, we will certainly pre-correspond about talking points so the meeting doesn't take all ____ing day.

About our putative 'relations' with DNUTs... here's the relevent excerpt from the meeting today:

Whomp says:
My concern is we miss the philo sling by a turn because the beakers are not at the pace of Donuts
Kentharu says:
have you had contect witht he Donuts?
Kentharu says:
contact
Whomp says:
How?
Whomp says:
Do you?
Kentharu says:
you mention Donut a lot that is all
Daghie says:
We can not have contact w/o alpha, you can for all we know
Whomp says:
I believe donuts started with alpha and may have gone writing already
Tubby Rower says:
HAve you met D'nuts or TNT?
Chamnix says:
I think it would be a crying shame if we cannot agree to some tech trade - you need Alphabet, and neither of us wants you to research it on your own.

From this, I really get the feeling they have met DNUT. I'm not sure how this may have happened.... Daghie says: we can not have contact w/o alpha, you can for all we know

Whomp: the beakers are not at the pace of Donuts where's he coming from with this? I really don't have any reason to think they are being straight.... yet nor are we (shame?)

They never reference or ask about TNT. They repeatedly ask about our [potential] contact with DNUT. I really think they already have contact with DNUT.

 

[fe3333au]

REPORT - KISS NEGOTIATIONS #1

Officially Meeting- MSN CHAT - Kentharu and Chamnix ... and later Emp.Napoleon
AIM CHAT - To Advise - Chamnix, Peter_Grimes, fe3333au ... and later Emp.Napoleon, General_W
Private AIM - fe3333au and Nicodeemus - only KISS with AIM capability


Agreement #1 - Known Technology Swap ... Confirmed in PM from Tubby

1st Meeting & Deal <MINUTES.ZIP>

To sum up
Kiss receives Alpha & IW
Mia receives CB, WC, & 1gpt for 20 turns

fe3333au,

When you're turn comes up, please accept the deal after you send us Alpha & IW. That will help us start Writing next turn. Thank you for you're help in this matter

Tubby (Team Kiss)

I sent this -

Thankyou Team KISS

An arduous task performed with merit by all involved ... please congratulate your team ... The methodology can only improve with additional meetings between our two great peoples ...

My President has been instructed to send you the technology ... we expect the corresponding knowledge and first gold payment ... An agreement will be drafted and sent for your perusal ... you will send it back with your signature ... and then forwarded to UN

Regards and Well Met

Feaurius III
Foreign Minister MIA

I am not in agreement to tell them of D-Nuts until we talk to them ... I have not found any reference to an agreement to talk about others ...


Psychie of KISS
Bede says:
We are peace loving agricultural nation but believe that the best defense is a strong offense

Knowledge Shared on Research
Bede says:
Accordingly we are developing our lands to grow quickly but at the same time we will have a strong military. We currently know the secrets of of BW, Pottery, Warrior Code , Ceremonial Burial & will shortly know the secrets of forging iron.
Kentharu says:
We have Alphabet (as you know), Bronze, and iron working and will currently be revealing the secrets of this circular thing our researchers call the Wheel


Knowledge Shared on Government
Whomp says:
do you know what you're preferred govt is chamnix?
Chamnix says:
Yes - our current plans involve eventually establishing a glorious Republic.
Whomp says:
so would it benefit both of us if we start on writing?
Chamnix says:
I agree - we both want writing, but there is certainly no need for us both to expend energy researching it.
Whomp says:
indeed

Share Research
Kentharu says:
Chamnix has informed me that both our nations wish for a Republic gov't
Kentharu says:
and that writing should only be researched by one nation


Mega Slip #1
Whomp says:
indeed. do you think we can beat donuts to the sling?
Kentharu says:
if we work together i believe we can
Kentharu says:
how do you know of the donuts?

> Ambassador welldone ...

New Topic ...
Bede says:
Which raises another interesting question: have you been able to see another continent?
Kentharu says:
no we have not, we have no ships the same as you correct?
Whomp says:
we don't have alpha
Bede says:
As we still lack knowledge of Alphabet we have not built any ships and our exploring warriors have seen no hints of another landmass
Kentharu says:
neither do our warriors, perhaps when we are able to draw maps we could share the knowledge we gained from our seperate explorations?

Summary
Bede says:
To summarize where we stand right now: Pottery, Warrior Code , Ceremonial Burial are held by the Celts, while our Greek neighbors know Alphabet and Iron Working. We are in agreement that a Republican government is desirable for both and that we must know Writing to achieve it. (It goes without saying that at least two other secrets are also necessary). To get that knowledge it is desirable that our two nations share the burdens and advantages. Is this a fair summary of the position
Kentharu says:
a very fair summary

Who best to research Writing
Bede says:
I have to then ask the question: is your economy strong enough to undertake that task in a timely fashion. The beaker cost of writing is 240.
Whomp says:
can you finish in less than 15?
Kentharu says:
we can finish it in less than 15 turns
Whomp says:
wow. what's your beakers per turn?
Kentharu says:
so is it agreed? we will take on the research and you masonary and mysticism
Whomp says:
we are confused how you can get 16 beakers with 5 citizens?
Kentharu says:
cities will be built accordingly, you have nothing to be worried about

>Hmmmm

KISS Curious about how we will forfill
Whomp says:
To build trust between our great nations to be please consider the fact that we cannot have met any other civ while the mighty Greece can. We would be filled with joy by any information that clearly shows you have not been approaced by others. Take this as no accusation but a mere wish for a solid ground to stand on when we make further arrangements.

<KISS Influx as citizens arrive ... and subjest changed ... On Ya Daghie>

[bContinental Unity[/b]
Kentharu says:
greetings to you all, i am glad that your nation's citizens take such an active role in dealings outside of their country
Soul Warrior says:
that's free citizens...
Daghie says:
And what a country, what a great continent this could develop into
Whomp says:
What does MIA hope to come away with in this conversation?
Kentharu says:
indeed it can, our people stress continental unity
Kentharu says:
we would hope that you have a tradeable tech for Alphabet
Whomp says:
is that all?
Kentharu says:
and the understanding that both our great nations strive towards the same goals
Kentharu says:
republic of course
Whomp says:
is that all?
Kentharu says:
is there more?

Disturbing Psychie of KISS
Kentharu says:
we are a peacfull people and do not seek any war with the great celtic nation
Whomp says:
how about with the other nations?
Kentharu says:
what about them?
Whomp says:
What is your view of each?
Kentharu says:
we want peace for all and i would hope the same for you? yes?
Kickbooti says:
I believe that our peaceful intentions are mutually recognized, the question before us is what is the most expeditious way to acheive our Republican ends...

> Warmonger Alert !!!!

Blah Blah ... and then ... Alpen horn Fanfare
Chamnix says:
I am not a diplomat - I am a straight talker. It seems we have been dancing forever with nothing accomplished. Here is what seems to be fair - Alphabet for Pottery and Warrior Code. They have the same tech costs and a curragh would be very useful to you. We will also be happy to relieve you of your burden of completing Iron Working, but our scientists would be severely offended if we gave their hard earned secrets away for nought. Perhaps some gold would assuage their feelings
Kickbooti says:
Currah's would be nice, from our perspective graneries are even more essential. Your price seems steep. Let us take Iron Working off the table...
Chamnix says:
Iron Working can be a separate discussion, but the price seems even to me: WC + Pottery = Alphabet.
Tubby Rower says:
no way
Kickbooti says:
We would be willing to trade Pottery and WC for IW and Alphabet.

<etc blah blah blah > ... Our Poor Boyz

Hmmmm
Whomp says:
You have 5 citizens and we would believe you like to grow
Chamnix says:
Civ AIs are not relevant. What matters to us is how long it would take us to research it on our own. Pottery would not take very long, but I think we agree that both of our civs would be better off if we did not have to spend that time.
Kickbooti says:
I fear the tone has gotten more cantankerous than I beleive any of us feel. If tech trade is a bone of contention - let us simply agree to research goals. We could resaearch and trade Masonry and Mystecism in exchange for you researching and trading Writing.
Kentharu says:
how true
Kentharu says:
simple agreements are needed

Then Another Interesting Reference
Whomp says:
My concern is we miss the philo sling by a turn because the beakers are not at the pace of Donuts
Kentharu says:
have you had contect witht he Donuts?
Kentharu says:
contact
Whomp says:
How?
Whomp says:
Do you?
Kentharu says:
you mention Donut a lot that is all
Daghie says:
We can not have contact w/o alpha, you can for all we know
Whomp says:
I believe donuts started with alpha and may have gone writing already
Tubby Rower says:
HAve you met D'nuts or TNT?
Chamnix says:
I think it would be a crying shame if we cannot agree to some tech trade - you need Alphabet, and neither of us wants you to research it on your own.

<Again well Parried>

But ... and we need to Discuss and have Admin Input
Tubby Rower says:
I repeat, have you met D'nuts or TNT?
Kentharu says:
we have not
Whomp says:
Thank you.
Whomp says:
Neither have we

<Cool because we have not physically met them yet>

Back to the to and Fro
Whomp says:
You can easily get this from D'nuts once you meet but we would prefer a mutually tech exclusive relationship. 1+1=3 seems to make sense in my simple mind
Chamnix says:
Bottom line - we have alphabet, you want alphabet, we want you to have alphabet. We want fair value for alphabet. You consider pottery to be too valuable. What are you willing to part with? Gold, a worker - what can you offer to make us feel like we are not being cheated?
Tubby Rower says:
What about all known techs to be traded with a small gold amount from the Greeks?
Kentharu says:
and you think that fair?

Bit of Fun ... But Warmonger Alert
Whomp says:
A strong offense is a good defense
Soul Warrior says:
or wild aztecs withnukes
Kentharu says:
we have sufficient warriors to deal with barbs, they are no threat
Tubby Rower says:
So why are you researching the Wheel?
Soul Warrior says:
friendly farm ponies?
Kentharu says:
how did you guess

Sharing Contacts reference
Whomp says:
contacts?
Kentharu says:
what about them?
Whomp says:
shared?
Kentharu says:
i would have to consult with my superiors but yes i think we can

<Unconfirmed ... GOOD ... I say NO>


Damn ... Ouch !!!
Whomp says:
Hello HSL
Kentharu says:
FE is the decision maker, but he is asleep
HSL Armando says:
about time
Whomp says:
Hmm...he is not available on IM
HSL Armando says:
My name is Emp. Napoleon, forgien minstery helpers

<I am on AIM and have told many my ID>

Deal Eventually Stamped
Chamnix says:
I believe we have our first firm offer of the day. MIA has offered IW for 20g - do we have our first agreement of the day?
Chamnix says:
I don't want to waste my entire day off...
Kentharu says:
neither do i
Whomp says:
We will Emperor. I think we agree that a deal for IW and alpha for 1gpt wc and cb
Whomp says:
20 turns
Tubby Rower says:
1gpt for 20 turns
Whomp says:
btw it's my bday...I should be the one concerned about being here.
HSL Armando says:
ok so MIA gives Alpha for CB, WC and 1 gold per turn?
Kentharu says:
happy birthday Whomp
HSL Armando says:
for 20 turns?
Whomp says:
alpha and IW
Tubby Rower says:
No MIA gives Alpha & IW this turn
Tubby Rower says:
KISS will give CB, WC & 1gpt

<Yeah Happy B'day ... Ya Not Gettin' A Betta Deal>

Possible Ally???
Kentharu says:
of course, again i would like to stress our unity agaisnt other foes
Whomp says:
I think that needs to be discussed further.
Whomp says:
2 against one is better than a dogpile
Kentharu says:
yes, so allies perhaps? just putting that up, other wise mutual peace
Whomp says:
I think we should discuss that with our teams. I see big benefits.
Kentharu says:
as do i

Agreement #2 - Share Research
Kentharu says:
i trust you fully, we will do masonary and mystic and you writing then?
Tubby Rower says:
correct

<I believe NO Time factor >


NIKODEEMUS FACTOR
OK As mentioned ... I was on AIM Whispering the Chamnix

When I was spied by Nikodeemus who did not mention me ... hmmm

Nikodeemus: hey, I'm Nikodemus from the team K.I.S.S. from the mtdg at the cfc site, wonder if you're around?
fe3333au: Yes
Nikodeemus: late night there, eh?
fe3333au: I just woke up .. I am 330am very sleepy
Nikodeemus: oh man
fe3333au: Just visting my site to check up
fe3333au: how meeting with you guys wne
fe3333au: *went
Nikodeemus: well we're still talking

<Anyway Blah Blah ... with me communicating to Whisperers what has happen ... and me mistyping>

Nikodeemus: can i ask, do you guys have a real democracy with voting and all?
Nikodeemus: our system is more like "see what seems to be the consensus and those who didn't have time to write anything can blame themselves"
fe3333au: yes we vote
fe3333au: but altimately I am not at meeting and my Rep is in charge
fe3333au: Could you outline what is on the table plesae
Nikodeemus: i think the one they're talking now is alpha+IW (we have 3 turns left of it) for warrior code, CB and 20 gold
fe3333au: well I've certainly got a good team
fe3333au: So has your warrior walked far?
Nikodeemus: well.. you weren't exactly on our doorsteps
Nikodeemus: not awfully far but further than i've usually seen on small maps

<Finally a Deal>

Nikodeemus: i think they've agreed to a deal, Kentharu is taking it to his superiors.. just in case that's you
fe3333au: Hmm ... could be just mentioned on the thread
fe3333au: I wish AIM was compatable
Nikodeemus: i'm using this client that can do both at the same time
Nikodeemus: pretty neat, just lacking a little on the help-side, took me a couple of tries to connect to both aim and msn
fe3333au: Thats cool ... so are you relaying me ... or can if necessary

<Finally>

fe3333au: As Foreign Minster for team MIA I would like to thank our neighbours from team KISS and now that agreement has been reached ... let us spit and shake on it ... and now we feast and drink
fe3333au: Could you pass that on when everyone is finished
Nikodeemus: okeydokey
fe3333au: Also we should discuss ideas to streamline diplomacy
Nikodeemus: yeah i think it could make sense to form an agenda for the metting before hand
Nikodeemus: put some basic offers on the table that the other team at least has a clue what the other one is going to propose
fe3333au: Yes I will add your thoughts to our discussion ... we are already thinking similar thoughts

-------------------------------

Excellent Gentlemen

 

[Chamnix]

I don't think KISS has met the Donuts. They were constantly concerned about the speed of researching writing/philosophy and getting the Republic slingshot - if they had met Donuts, they would already realize it will be impossible to beat Donuts to Philosophy.

The only reason they mentioned Donuts instead of TNT is that Donuts started with Alphabet so that they had a head start to Philosophy, and Donuts could build curraghs while TNT couldn't so a meeting with Donuts was possible whereas a meeting with TNT was not unless they started on our continent as well.

I still think we need to tell them we met Donuts. Also, I think we are going to try to trade for Pottery from Donuts. If we get it, then KISS will know we have it (tech prices) and will know we could not have researched it on our own. I think we should go one step further and tell KISS we met and are planning to trade for pottery. At one point, they were looking for a promise that we would only trade with each other (we didn't agree). They can't expect us not to trade for Pottery from someone else (especially since they refused to give it to us without being extortionate about it), but I think we should tell them first just as a courtesy.

EDIT - Actually, if we want to be deceitful, we could tell them we popped Pottery from a hut. I still think we are better off being honest, but we do have that option.

 

[peter grimes]

That's going to be a little tricky... Fe3333au will start to earn his keep, finally!

I agree we should tell them, but I'm not convinced they haven't met. I think we can string them along a little... After all, isn't it possible we'll be able to broker some techs?

I hope we can have the DNUT meeting asap, set stuff up before KISS has a chance to get upset. again: a fait accompli

 

[fe3333au]

Saturday is D-Nut meeting

I also think that they have not met D-Nuts ... and the only reason is that TNT was not mentioned ... the ship came in on SE (I think) ...

 

[fe3333au]

Whomp (and others ??) kept on mentioning that we had 5 citizens ...

What does this mean and how did he work this out ???

 

[ybbor]

Whomp (and others ??) kept on mentioning that we had 5 citizens ...

What does this mean and how did he work this out ???

probably the F11 screen somehow

 

[Chamnix]

I think it was the victory conditions screen - they could see our percentage of total population and their percentage of total population. They know their number of citizens so they can calculate our number of citizens. Using the same approach, I get that they had 7 citizens at the time.