Britain is leaving the EU
- Thread starter Cheetah
- Start date
Though i don't plan to be -scopic.
That's to report problematic posts. These days, now that normal users have access to the delete function, you don't need to report double posts or even replace an unwanted post with n/m (or similar devices).
Hmmmph.
But, but, the EU is stealing!
(never mind those agricultural subsidies, by the way)
Britain could still make payments to the EU, Tory manifesto confirms
The manifesto confirms Britain will be leaving the single market
Britain could still continue make payments to the European Union after it leaves the bloc, the Conservative manifesto has confirmed.
The Tory document, launched on Tuesday, neither rules out Britain paying a one-off divorce bill to the EU to settle outstanding arrears and commitments.
(…)
the Tory manifesto confirms the party’s policy of taking Britain out of the single market and customs union – a 180 degree reversal of the party’s 2015 policy.
(full article)
The manifesto confirms Britain will be leaving the single market
Britain could still continue make payments to the European Union after it leaves the bloc, the Conservative manifesto has confirmed.
The Tory document, launched on Tuesday, neither rules out Britain paying a one-off divorce bill to the EU to settle outstanding arrears and commitments.
(…)
the Tory manifesto confirms the party’s policy of taking Britain out of the single market and customs union – a 180 degree reversal of the party’s 2015 policy.
(full article)
But, but, the EU is stealing!
(never mind those agricultural subsidies, by the way)
I would claim to be surprised that anyone is surprised by Tory incompetence over Brexit by now, but even I'm surprised by that. Not only are they confirming that a 'hard' Brexit is now party policy (rather than just party incompetence), they're also pledging to not grabbing the European ball and running away? Are they trying to offend all their voters at once??
Mega Tsunami
Emperor
@ Arakhor - I take it you are not one of the so-called “Re-Leavers” then?
It appears, according to a YouGov poll this week, that we Brits are getting more and more behind the idea of Brexit.
From the Telegraph:
More than two thirds of people now support Brexit following the emergence of "Re-Leavers", according to the latest poll.
A total of 68 per cent of respondents would like to see Britain withdraw from the EU, the latest YouGov figures show.
Some 45 per cent said they were Eurosceptics, while 22 per cent said they wanted the Government to ignore June's election result.
A total of 23 per cent – described as “Re-Leavers” – said that they voted Remain last year, but now believe the government has a duty to carry out the will of the British people.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/15/two-thirds-voters-now-support-brexit/
More detail here:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/
It appears, according to a YouGov poll this week, that we Brits are getting more and more behind the idea of Brexit.
From the Telegraph:
More than two thirds of people now support Brexit following the emergence of "Re-Leavers", according to the latest poll.
A total of 68 per cent of respondents would like to see Britain withdraw from the EU, the latest YouGov figures show.
Some 45 per cent said they were Eurosceptics, while 22 per cent said they wanted the Government to ignore June's election result.
A total of 23 per cent – described as “Re-Leavers” – said that they voted Remain last year, but now believe the government has a duty to carry out the will of the British people.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/15/two-thirds-voters-now-support-brexit/
More detail here:
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/
Of course not. My opinion hasn't magically changed simply because Brexit might actually happen now. If the Government really had a duty to carry out "the will of the British people" (rather than carrying out this one in a shameless attempt to court the UKIP vote and silence the Eurosceptic wing), then a whole mountain of different things would have happened in the last seven years since Labour left power.
Mega Tsunami
Emperor
Well, I happen to think the EU is doing all the anti-EU work for the Government – they don’t need (the remnants of) UKIP to do that.
One of the reasons more and more of us are getting behind Brexit IMO has been the EU’s vindictive attitude towards us as shown, for example, in thewar reparation demands they are making.
Think back to Project Fear I (PF I) during the Scottish referendum. IMO that gave the Nationalists a good 10% of the vote and nearly won it for them.
Then came PF II during our EU referendum and IMO it did win it for the Leavers.
And now we have PF III from the EU with our reparations for leaving the EU going up from 40 to 50 to 60 to 100bn just like that. It is all made up nonsense designed to scare us into submission.
Well it appears to me that it is having the exact opposite. It is obviously hardening Britain’s determination to leave – we Brits hate been bullied, whether it is by Westminster or, even worse, by Brussels.
The EU (so we are told, especially by the French) exists because of what happened 70 years ago and we must not forget what Germany and Italy did back then. All very well, but they conveniently seem to have forgotten what we did for them 70 years ago.
Unfortunately the EU seems hell bent on making a ‘Versailles’ type agreement with the intention of making us into some sort of “Russia in the West” as a punishment. I have not heard the word ‘sanctions’ used against us yet, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we did.
And all we have done is to exercise our democratic right, not invaded, bombed and killed.
Do we owe something for leaving? Yes, of course we do, but it is not remotely near 100bn. After this last week or two, I reckon that whatever slim chance there was of us deciding to remain has now gone. So too has the (always very slim) chance of us ever wanting back in gone forever. I doubt very much if an iScotland (for example) would want anything to do with the EU either. Who in their right mind would when you have vindictiveness on this scale?
However, there is hope for a reasonable reparations settlement: maybe this story in the Telegraph will give Juncker some common sense on the negotiation table.
€100bn Brexit bill is ‘legally impossible’ to enforce, European Commission’s own lawyers admit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ally-impossible-enforce-european-commissions/
Most of that is under a paywall, so here is the Mail’s report on the Telegraph’s piece.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4481498/EU-lawyers-say-92billion-Brexit-Bill-t-enforced.html
One of the reasons more and more of us are getting behind Brexit IMO has been the EU’s vindictive attitude towards us as shown, for example, in the
Think back to Project Fear I (PF I) during the Scottish referendum. IMO that gave the Nationalists a good 10% of the vote and nearly won it for them.
Then came PF II during our EU referendum and IMO it did win it for the Leavers.
And now we have PF III from the EU with our reparations for leaving the EU going up from 40 to 50 to 60 to 100bn just like that. It is all made up nonsense designed to scare us into submission.
Well it appears to me that it is having the exact opposite. It is obviously hardening Britain’s determination to leave – we Brits hate been bullied, whether it is by Westminster or, even worse, by Brussels.
The EU (so we are told, especially by the French) exists because of what happened 70 years ago and we must not forget what Germany and Italy did back then. All very well, but they conveniently seem to have forgotten what we did for them 70 years ago.
Unfortunately the EU seems hell bent on making a ‘Versailles’ type agreement with the intention of making us into some sort of “Russia in the West” as a punishment. I have not heard the word ‘sanctions’ used against us yet, but it wouldn’t surprise me if we did.
And all we have done is to exercise our democratic right, not invaded, bombed and killed.
Do we owe something for leaving? Yes, of course we do, but it is not remotely near 100bn. After this last week or two, I reckon that whatever slim chance there was of us deciding to remain has now gone. So too has the (always very slim) chance of us ever wanting back in gone forever. I doubt very much if an iScotland (for example) would want anything to do with the EU either. Who in their right mind would when you have vindictiveness on this scale?
However, there is hope for a reasonable reparations settlement: maybe this story in the Telegraph will give Juncker some common sense on the negotiation table.
€100bn Brexit bill is ‘legally impossible’ to enforce, European Commission’s own lawyers admit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ally-impossible-enforce-european-commissions/
Most of that is under a paywall, so here is the Mail’s report on the Telegraph’s piece.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4481498/EU-lawyers-say-92billion-Brexit-Bill-t-enforced.html
Verbose
Deity
Yes, well the UK at various points as a EU member agreed to shoulder a joint responsibility for things like retirement plans for functionaries employed in common by the EU. The EU demand is that if the UK wants out, it needs to settle those outstation bills first. I.e. the EU won't just accept the UK doing a runner from the cheque. So far the wrangle is more over the exact size of the outstanding bill.
Except the British press is spinning it in the direction MegaTsunami is headed.
No, there won't be much negotiation, at least not successful, if the UK position is one of refighting the Battle of Britain. The British clearly won't excuse the EU for not thinking this is WWII all over, but the EU still won't comply with unreasonable British sentiments. No point. No need. If Britain is actually this dead-set of simply crashing, then so be it. It MIGHT be a negotiation strategy, but only if the UK is actually like North Korea. Otherwise it's just bizarre.
Except the British press is spinning it in the direction MegaTsunami is headed.
No, there won't be much negotiation, at least not successful, if the UK position is one of refighting the Battle of Britain. The British clearly won't excuse the EU for not thinking this is WWII all over, but the EU still won't comply with unreasonable British sentiments. No point. No need. If Britain is actually this dead-set of simply crashing, then so be it. It MIGHT be a negotiation strategy, but only if the UK is actually like North Korea. Otherwise it's just bizarre.
It wouldn't matter even if the EU wasn't insisting that leaving has to be a worse deal than not leaving (for fairly obvious reasons). May is in love with being seen as a fighter for X or a strong and stable bulwark against Y & Z, so with most of the press there to back at her at every step, the headlines almost write themselves.
When two-thirds of the current population and the press are backing the May recipe, riding on the waves of national pride.....
So be it.
Makes me remember what Oscar Wilde said: "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"
So be it.
Makes me remember what Oscar Wilde said: "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious"
Ryika
Lazy Wannabe Artista
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2013
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- 9,393
It's funny how different evaluations of a situation can be.
I think Britain will be fine, even with a no-deal-exit. What's the EU going to do? Force other countries to not trade with Britain? Yeah, that's totally going to happen, and if it somehow does, for how long will they be able to keep that up when the countries who already think of the EU as tyrants are given another prime example to fuel that opinion?
In my opinion, the side that is in existential danger is the EU. If Britain leaves unharmed, others will follow. If Britain leaves and is struck down, the resentment against the EU will go through the roof, and others will follow eventually. The only thing that could leave the EU in a safe position for a while, would be if Britain somehow made a 180 and decided to stay after all, but that's obviously not going to happen.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
OTOH I think EU should strike down UK to show its force. That will please the euroskeptics like Le Pen and such and will divide UK itself. Cant think of many in EU who likes UK anyway. Maybe Poland and Hungary but they should be expelled and then struck down too. This way EU will endure for a thousand years.
The "special" position of the UK, demanded by the UK at every internal UK election, certainly did not make UK very popular in the EU.
But besides that.
Why striking down, why the hassle ?
The UK has an enormous trade deficit.
It is year on year now selling off their real estate, their companies, their Gold in the London vaults (nr 1 export product !), only to fill the gap.
UK will lose their trade Hub position between the Commonwealth and the EU.
etc, etc.
The problem with political politicians is that they have in general no background or feel for basic economics.
I have yet to see a vision for what kind of economy UK is steering to.
And by not having that they will cut cost in everything social to keep labor cost as low as possible, to get more competitive.
The last remnants of the industrial knowledge base are already cut away, the knowledge left in older people sold abroad as consultancy.
Poor younger generation in the UK.
EDIT
oh and the only place in UK where education and knowledge are at top global level is Scotland.
And will they stay ?
Verbose
Deity
Nothing. The assumption here is that all the action will be on the UK side – of the BoB kind.
It's just that the EU still represents about 20% of the global GDP, the UK is short on international trade-deals, and replacing 44% of your exports when you have fried your relations with one fifth of the world's GDP is going to prove a little tricky. Especially since of late global trade has been winding down in volume. Not the best time to go hunting for alternatives.
No one needs to do anything. Time and friction alone are almost certain to provide enough of a weigh-anchor to drag the UK down for the foreseeable future.
In (very vaguely) related news, the noted scholar and ecclesiastic Alcuin of York died today in AD 804. He's not particularly well-known, but he was famously quoted as saying, And do not listen to those who keep saying, 'The voice of the people is the voice of God', because the tumult of the crowd is always close to madness.
Who'd have thought he'd be on to something, 1200 years beforehand?
Who'd have thought he'd be on to something, 1200 years beforehand?
Alcuin of York had, so to say, not much confidence in people
He is the one that urged Charles the Great to get rid of the personal confession to God and replace it by a confession to a priest.
The net effect being that the personal responsibility and consciousness of the individual was (partially) taken over by the church, greatly enhancing her power.
The EU27 will agree to do business as usual and just leave the Brits to do their thing. They will focus on strengthening the integrity of the single market and become more open to internal criticism towards the EU, in order to disarm the extreme right political movement in the future.
Britain should be a lot more concerned about what the foreign owners of up to about 35-40% of British companies and assets residing in Britain today, are going to do after 2019. Many of these entities, obviously placed their investments in the UK, not just for UK market access, but for EU single market access through the UK. That amounts to millions of jobs and tax income for the state on the line.
And no, it's not the EUs fault, that the British have been selling out from their Crown Jewels since Thatcher was in office. That is an entirely homemade potential disaster for British workers.
Verbose
Deity
Anything is of course possible, and the EU needs to in a sense start over. But mostly that is a kind of British wish-fulfillment fantasy about it's own supposed outsized importance.
The irony is also that IF that kind of scenario comes to pass as an effect of Brexit, then the economic fall-out will be such that even a post-brexit-UK with a functioning trade-deal with the EU will be screwed economically. The UK still needs for the EU to stick together and do well. IF it by its own actions upset that, like everyone else of course, it will find itself pulled down by it.
Verbose
Deity
Except the EU can't quite know what "business as usual" with a post-Brexit Britain will mean, of what such a British "thing" will be.
By the looks of the Daily Mail, to which PM May clings like a damsel in distress (or at least her policy is to take her cues from it, and never, ever do anything out of line in relation to it), this could mean declaring everyone in Europe a Nazi and tossing crumpets at them from the white cliffs of Dover.
