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broken wonders/world projects

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by gdambrauskas, May 21, 2012.

  1. SargontheGreat2

    SargontheGreat2 Modder

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    :eek::eek::eek::eek: Thanks, never played farther than Pre-Historic
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Actually it is from Civ III where The Great Library also gave you the techs any other three civs had. RoM is based on a couple of Civ III mods. The Great Library went obsolete at Education and then The Encyclopedia came in at Psycology and went obsolete at Computers then The Internet came in later.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    I was not only here when that change was made, I suggested it ;)

    I greatly disagree that it would be too powerful. I do agree that perhaps it should obsolete whenever the Colossus does. Lets compare its power to the Colossus... +1 Gold in ALL water spaces (for the building civ) vs +1 Hammer in water spaces only in the city it was built in.

    Ok, so hammers may be more valuable than gold usually, but consider these points:
    1) Water spaces, even with an extra hammer, are never going to be a good choice for a citizen to work in comparison to a good land space unless some special resource is there, and then having a hammer there would only mitigate the production hit you're taking to use any water spaces at all.

    2) The main benefit of water spaces is NOT food or production, generally the highest priorities for a growing city (which all your cities are in the early stages of the game when the Statues apply), but are best for taking a growth hit for immediate research/gold benefit (especially if you're racing to a certain tech to be first.) So EVEN with +1 hammer in each water space, your ability to really benefit is actually somewhat rare since that measly hammer still doesn't do much to make water spaces worthy of working over a good hearty mine.

    3) The Colossus seems to be fairly moderate, even though it enhances the PRIMARY value of the water spaces as it is. However, consider what it does for Financial rulers, who find that the extra gold makes all water spaces qualify for the benefit of an extra two gold on top of that, so for those leaders, tends to make a massive number of spaces leap a whopping +3! This kinda puts the benefit of a hammer in those spaces to shame in comparison.


    I am NOT making an argument to Nerf the Colossus, just an argument to say that the benefits of the proposed change to Maui would still be more moderated than, or at least fairly balanced to that wonder.

    Additionally, I would suggest an early Hut - the Driftwood collection hut, that gives +1 hammers in the city's coastal water spaces. This would water down the vast impression that a more wide sweeping Maui statues would appear to have.
     
  4. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Would need a new tag. There is only a water tag at the moment.
     
  5. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

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    Could just use that then considering that open ocean tiles aren't that great at first, even with an extra hammer, anyhow.
     
  6. CIVPlayer8

    CIVPlayer8 Prince

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    Please remember to put in obsolete techs for wonders. Many ancient/classical wonders have none.
     
  7. Epona222

    Epona222 Warlord

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    Unfortunately this is not the case - at Modern Physics both the Nature Circle of Power and Invocation Hut (Druidism and Shamanism buildings, required to build missionaries) obsolete. As do other missionary providing monasteries. The difference with the Druidic and Shamanistic buildings is that even if you have the civic "State Church", which is supposed to allow you to build missionaries without requiring their building, and you can carry on building most of the other missionaries, that does not include missionaries for all religions.

    Thus even with State Church civic (which gives you the supposed ability to build missionaries without their monastery) - this doesn't include Druidism, Shamanism, Tengrii, Ngaii... might be a few others - if you have State Church civic you still need to build a building to make missionaries for some of the 'old religions', and once you get to Modern Physics those buildings are obsolete, then you can't build those missionaries in cities where you hadn't already built the Nature Circle of Power or Invocation Hut or whatever other building. That is a form of obsolescence. I am against it, because I live in the 21st C and my entire family are modern druids, and I was raised as a pagan - I would rather have a different set of modern buildings to represent the differentiation between ancient druidic/shamanistic religion and modern day neo-pagan religion, than have those old religions cut off at any particular tech - which to an extent they are, because after that point you can't build new missionaries in but a few of your oldest cities, and you can't build any of those religious buildings or missionaries in your newer post-obsolescence cities, regardless of religion civic.

    They are not all the same and equally valid, some of them go obsolete and you are unable to spread them using missionaries even if your religious civic is State Church which should still allow you to build missionaries without their special building but doesn't, at least not across the board, and even if Druidism is your state religion - it is dead in the water after a while.
     
  8. Rasma

    Rasma Warlord

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    Isnt there an option to be able to build obsolete buildings?
     
  9. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Which is correct, they still provide culture and tourism if nothing else.

    That is a bug which I have not encountered before. I will look into it.
     
  10. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    The problem here is that State Church uses the SPECIALBUILDING_MONASTERY value to determine which units can be built. IE those units can be built if the building required to build them are of special type SPECIALBUILDING_MONASTERY. That value is also used to define the default build and obsolete tech for these buildings.

    For the religions which come after tech Meditation and have monasteries I can easily fix the problem.

    The problem is those that come before Meditation (Druid and Shaman) and those that use non-monastery buildings to build their missionaries (Ngai, Tengrii and Mesopotamian; plus Jain or Sikh). For the former I could make building of missionaries the same as the core ie not available until Meditation but this would be a big change to game play.

    The alternative is to change the Civics code so we can specify which units can be built without their prerequsite building.
     
  11. MaXimillionZero

    MaXimillionZero Warlord

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    Can't you create a new building type for the missionary-providing buildings that aren't monasteries, and have state religion allow units from those as well?
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Sounds like a possible solution. That should work for Druid and Shaman. I will investigate further. Thanks.
     
  13. gdambrauskas

    gdambrauskas Warlord

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    this thread digressed a bit:) I have no objections about religion etc It is only about wonders/projects and how crazy their stats are. Playing in mp games we have to agree not to build them, but then if AI builds it and you take their city you end up owning it, leads back to original problems. A very good example is hellenism statue of zeus, +100 war weariness is a game breaker when you are at constant war with your human enemy. There's no peace making and soon the person without statue of zeus has 10-15 unhappiness in his cities and that continues to grow as war goes on -> game over in a stupid way due to a broken wonder.
    I played RAND before (c2c mp games were constant oos, v23 seems so far work well), so this an example from rand with my changes

    https://github.com/gdambrauskas/anewdawn1.74Hspinoff/commit/59cafdd40535e96a5bdffd873eb5c61903d8a76f

    at the bottom i kept a changelog of what exactly changed(i kept refining values in the mp games)
    I like ton of things in a mod, but it's painful to skip buildings in mp games due to how unbalanced they are.
     
  14. Sgtslick

    Sgtslick Emperor

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    yes +100% war weariness does seem excessive.
    Pretty much the vast majority of wonders need a nerf/rebalancing and an increase in hammer cost.
     
  15. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I'll make a mod from your document and let people try it out. Can't do the Olympic Games changes you want in a mod, WoC doesn't allow it. :(

    Edit
    1) I can't do any modifications that set things to the default.
    2) I thought the main complaint we were getting with Palace of Potala was it was OP with regards to money.
    3) Some are in Hydro's mods so I will need to get him to turn off his forced overide tag on them.
    4) I strongly disagree with a number of these (what's new). EG the only reason for building "The Art of War" is it gives you a once only cheaper upgrade on units built in that city.

    I will still get it done but it is not as important as some of the other things I am working on - the fix for missionaries in State Church civic and getting some more content in the Nomads demo.
     
  16. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Also many of the Wonders have been completely changed from RAND.
     
  17. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Ans some are still the same as in BtS "Statue of Zeus" for example is only changed to be a religion wonder.
     
  18. Epona222

    Epona222 Warlord

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    Thank you for the responses about the missionaries for old religions, and for the PM about them - I will have a look tomorrow and sorry for taking the thread off-topic, that seems to be my specialty :o


    Back on topic, the wonders I am currently finding a bit OP are the Via Appia, and the Three Gorges Dam -

    Via Appia is somewhat amazing, and as a lover of Roman History I am delighted to see it in there (and I can also admire a nifty bit of programming, because it is spectacular) - but the effects are OP and my treasury is joyfully rolling around meowing and demanding tummy-rubs for a job well done, whilst all my workers are sitting around on tea-breaks - all my paths and roads got instantaneously upgraded saving me an absolute fortune in cash, and many turns spent doing it with workers - and (if I read it correctly?) as long as I make sure that my BUG menu options are set to show obsolete worker actions, I never have to spend a single dime on building paved roads - that's going to make a MASSIVE imbalance to my treasury between the techs of paved roads and railroad, if I''m not having to spend 4 gold on every tile of paved roads that I build. It's not possible to have a bad medieval/renaissance era with that wonder. Is there any way to make it reduce the cost of a paved road improvement from 4 gold to 3 gold? So you get them a bit cheaper but not as a free giveaway for centuries on end!

    Three Gorges Dam annoys me a bit, power to all cities on a continent? I know it was that way originally, but it's always annoyed me from the start. IRL, the whole of Eurasia does not get power from a dam in China. It sort of robs me of the joy and challenge of working out how to build (pre-fusion) power plants in all my cities, researching various techs because I want all my cities to have access to power - I like that sort of thing where I am using resources for coal/oil, getting some payback for the steampunk tech with peat and wood fired dynamos, then I get a tech that allows me to build hydro plants in my cities with river access, then working my way towards solar/wind/tidefarms etc... I can build 3 gorges dam and all that fun is wiped away, and as I play on a gigantic terra map, that's pretty much the end of any challenge in terms of producing power in my cities. I would like to see the Three Gorges Dam provide power in the city where it was built, and reduce the cost of hydro power plants, or give +hammers for hydro plants built in your continent, rather than have it give free power - yes that may not be realistic, but for me at least, building it can suck some of the fun out of planning how you're going to get power - there were a couple of versions of C2C where it didn't give power to all your cities, and honestly I liked it better that way.
     
  19. Rasma

    Rasma Warlord

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    Sorry to go off topic a second but,
    As I was looking up I saw the suggestion for a +hammer water building, but one already exists, it is just later in the game and culture locked to the dutch, the dyke, adding another one seems like it would devalue one of the main advantages of the dutch culture.

    Also for the Three Gorges Dam, could it be modified to be the closest X cities are provided power, where X is a variable based on world size?

    And for Via Appia, perhaps make it upgrade them all once, that would make it still incredibly useful but not overpowered.
     
  20. Epona222

    Epona222 Warlord

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    It does upgrade every path or road within your territory on that continent to a paved road in one fell swoop - and it saved me a small fortune over doing it myself with workers - I felt that it was unbalanced and gave too big a bonus when it insta-upgraded all my routes. There's fun in expending effort and treasury reserve and having stuff to do with your workers, having stuff handed to you on a plate is not so much fun. I love the idea of the wonder, but the advantage is too big, and I like having stuff for my workers to do, I look forward to being able to upgrade my routes, I don't want it all given out for free for little effort and then sit there looking at my workers and thinking "well that's that then, have a tea break until I research Railroad". If that makes any sense! That's why I also dislike the Three Gorges Dam, I want to have to make a bit of effort myself for getting good routes and power, rather than have it provided by a Wonder with little planning or effort involved.
     

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