Bryce Running Extreeeemly Slow

[Gary Childress]

It's been almost 30 minutes now rendering a single frame! The polygon count should be low. The only things in the scene are a bomb, two fire and one smoke spheres.

Any ideas on how I can speed this up or why it's taking so long?

Thanks,

 

[Wyrmshadow]

make sure you don't have any other programs sucking up memory. Also smoke takes up a lot of processing power so see if its not too detailed. Also check the resolution of your render, you dont neet anything beyond normal quality. Anything higher makes the colors flicker and shimmer when you make a unit. Wasted effort.

 

[Bjornlo]

fire & smoke....

Sounds like volumetrics. These always slow your PC down. But, 30 minutes per frame is extreme. More than 3 minutes and typically something has gone wrong. 30 seconds is quite do-able.

What are your PC specs?

 

[Gary Childress]

Hi Bjornlo,

I have a 2.8 GHz processor and about 512mb memory if I recall correctly (it's been awhile since I tinkered with the memory). I've done a few volumes and smokes before this and it took a little while to do but never like this. The smoke and both of the fire polygons are all volumes.

@Wyrmshadow, I have a few things running in the background. I'll try shutting them all down and see if that helps. I've had things running in the background before and it didn't seem to have that much effect as it seems to be having now. I also tried "normal" rendering and it still took awhile. I eventually turned off Anti-Aliasing altogether and that seemed to help a bit. Is it feasible to do a unit animation without AA?

Thanks,

 

[Bjornlo]

Hi Gary,

Well. Volumetrics always take time.

Render tips or how to make your PC run slower for no appearent reason)
1. Volumetrics. This is basically a texture that seems to add depth. It makes nice fires and smoke. It is occasionally used for other things too. Avoid it whenever you can.
2. Transparencies. These seem to not impact quite as much as volumetric materials. But, they still add a good deal to the render. Avoid these when you can. Use them in place of volumetrics when you can. Fuzzy transparencies have the same bug (over lap them and they destroy each other) as volumetrics. And they seem to seem to really hammer render times too.
3. Fuzzy materials. Unless it is a fuzzy transparency it is not as bad as the first two. But, it is still quite a hit.
4. Reflections. They mess up most renders at Civ scale, and can add a little or a LOT to your render time. How much these add in part depends on the complexity of your object. For an example and for fun, try a highly reflective sphere with just a photograph applied to a box to fake a background image. Next do the same with two Torii (doughnut shaped primitives). have them interlock, but not touch (like a chain). There you have reflections of reflections. Ugh.
5. advanced render options. Bump up the rays a bit too much and go on a camping trip before it is done. AA above normal is pretty much a waste for Civ. TIR, rays per pixel, etc... default is fine.
6. Texture size. Big honking textures can take a LOT of time to render. It can have as much or more of an impact to render times than poly count.
7. Poly count. This is the number of sides an object has (when you view the wire frames). The actualy number of objects has a part too. Bryce made (ie; not made in a modeler) always render much slower. The big reason is polygon count. They never discard unused polys the way you can in a real modeler.
8. Running Bryce too long. Bryce has a memory leak. If you run it for too long it slows down. Wyrmshadow and I have a bunch of ram, so we don't suffer too bad from this. but, with only 512mb... it is something you need to keep in mind. If you have somewhat recently started bryce and have not opened and closed a bunch of scenes, you're ok. If you have opened and closed scenes or just used it for a while.. Exit Bryce and restart it. This clears up most of the resources Bryce uses. If you really want maximum performance, restart the PC.
9. The color yellow. I do not know how true this one is, but I heard from a sincere and knowledgeable person that Bryce has (since version 3) had a minor slow down when yellow is used.

2.8ghz, is fast enough for bryce (it does not matter if it is an AMD or Intel). But, 512 is a bit of a problem. I really reccommend 2gb, if you have the resources to get this done. 2gb is the perfect amount for Bryce. It can use ALL of it. Above 2gb, and Bryce does not make full use of it. But, if the OS and other stuff has a little bit for itself, this can leave more of the magical 2gb amount for Bryce.

It is possible to make a unit with out AA. You can also experiment with rendering the frames slightly over sized and then resizing them down in Photoshop and letting the paint program apply AA for you instead of applying them at render time. I found that when I work on my laptop, this is faster.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Gary, the times you state would have been about right, IF you were using my old, crappy Pentium III laptop with 384MB of memory.... and you were using a volumetric terrain (like I did with the FIRST version of my shinra #26 Rocket)

I personally have not had much trouble using Bryce 5 in a 2 GHz machine with 256, or since I upgraded it about a year ago, 768MB of DDR RAM.... Then agian, I built that machine from the ground up, even installing the most basic version of XP Home, so it doesn't have a lot of useless, extra "bloatware" taking up memory, like most store-bought computers do.....

Speaking of which, Bjorn, I don't know if you run Linux or not, but is there some version of Bryce that will work under Ubuntu, and/or can Bryce 5 be made to run in WinE (or some other Windows emulator for Linux)? The reason I'm asking is because Bill Gates done ticked me off when he pretty much forced everyone to start buying Bloatware Vista, so I'm jumping ship to Linux when I build my next PC (well, I'm keeping my XP install discs, as long as softare is being made that will run under it).

 

[Bjornlo]

Hikaro,
I occasionally us Linux, but I am not a fan.

I honestly do not care about the OS. I do not "run" any operating system. I use them. They are mostly irrelevant to me. They are just a platform to allow me to run my programs. And, 100% (as in every single one) of every program I have tested runs better under Windows XP Pro, so I run that.

I have read the crap Linux users have to go through to get Bryce, Poser, DS, etc to run "almost" as good as Windows. Why anyone wants to waste their time making the OS their new hobby escapes me.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Welllll...... To answer your question short and sweet: You can't BUY Windows XP anywhere now that Bloatware...er...Windows Vista is out. I refuse to go to Vista for one BIG reason:

Any OS that requries more System resources than DooM3 or Unreal Tournament 2005 to run is obviously a waste of system resources and a thinly-disguised attempt to get you to buy a brand-new computer, when a much simpler, less resource-intensive OS would do the job just as well, if not better (I mean, who really NEEDS 3D menues ).

Vista is just the latest manifestation of Lucifer Gates' unyielding cupidity, and therefore I'm going to give him the finger and go with the good guys; you know, the people who are offering an OS that's just as good as Windows XP, takes up less system resources and can be used to make your own sub $2K supercomputer.... FOR FREE! That's right, not one red cent for Linux and you get the equivalent of the whole MS Office pack (which would cost about $500) for free as well.

 

[BadKharma]

Maybe have a look here Newegg I am sure there are other places where XP is still available also.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Well, while I'll still be using Xp for some things, I may just use Linux and 4-8 X-Boxes to create a mini-Beowulf cluster server and use Bryce's Network rendering function (especially since X-Boxes have better 3D graphics processors than most PCs do) to speed the process up a bit.... I still have two copies of XP (Japanese version), but I may buy an English version from them as well, just to be safe.

OOH, and thanks for the link... That place has got some good deals on Motehrboards (I'm slowly working on building a steampunk portable PC to replace my semi-defunct and heavily obsolete laptop).

 

[Bjornlo]

You can buy XP (all flavors) until the end of May 2008.

Vista does not suck. It is reasonably fast. Just not as fast as a fully tuned XP system. So, I run XP. I have run Vista. At my previous place of employment, I helped make Vista; and so I know it inside and out.

Using XBoxes as render PCs is a waste of perfectly good xboxes. Rendering is all about.
1. CPU speed
2. ram (amount and speed)
3. disk speed
An XBox has a slow processor, limited ram, and a slow small disk. In otherwords as good as it is at games, is how bad it is as a unit creation too.

The xbox has a fine display (video card). Around the same as a NVidia 7600 as I recall. But, this does not improve render times. Only display times (ie: game play, not unit creation).

But despite my past (long term) employment, I remain a OS agnostic. I honestly do not care what it is nor who made it. I care only about speed, stability, ease of use, security, and how well my programs run on it. Nothing beats Windows XP, although Vista is a reasonable 2nd choice. Linux works (sorta) for most stuff. But, it is way too much work to get stuff to work and then it is not as fast, stable or generally useable as with XP. The same with a MAC, except that with a MAC it is easier to get started and more software support (for example, native support for both Bryce and Poser).
I have developed for MAC, Amiga, PC, C=64, UNIX/Linux and others. The only two platforms I was every passionate about were my C=64 and my Amiga. It took me many years to learn that I was ultimately only hurting myself.

www.Newegg.com is definately one of the bettershops on the net. They have "good" prices. Good selection. And they are really good to work with after the purchase. Also look at www.zipzoomfly.com a very similar shop with similar customer service, and so on. I have used both those places (and a few others) way too often.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

Maybe you misunderstood me... I said I would be using the XBoxes in a 4-8 node BEOWULF cluster[/ULR], therefore, while they may INDIVIDUALLY be slow and have realatively low memory, TOGETHER, they will be the rough equvalent of a low-end super computer (and a hell of a lot cheaper, too). That is one thing that Linux/Unix can do that other OS's WISH they could: Take a group of computers on a network and the more computers you have hooked up, the FASTER they go..... Windows and everything else, the more computers you have hooked up, the SLOWER they go.

....Besides, the term "perfectly good XBox" is an oxy-moron.

I guess the reason I'm such a stickler for efficiency (as in uses the least amount of system resources for a given function) in an OS dates back to when I was an extremely poor kid in HS and could only afford a second-hand 386 (this was right about the time the first pentiums were coming out to give you an idea of how outdated my first computer was when I bought it), with 2 MB of RAM, and a 80MB HD, so I couldn't AFFORD to have a bloated OS with a whole bunch of useless features taking up what little system resources I had available, and that philosophy has remained in place despite the fact that I can build a fairly top of the line computer for what I paid for my first PC (I didn't abandon MS DOS until 1999, when they stopped making programs for it, but I still use DOSbox to run my old DOS programs on my new, custom-built computers).

 

[BadKharma]

Your welcome I use newegg for all my computer parts purchases. I have never had a problem with them and even had to return one defective CPU that was taken care of quickly and easily. I imigine eventually the bugs will get worked out in Vista it took awhile before XP was running right and adopted by the masses. I can remember all the people complaining at Win98 was better than XP.

 

[Bjornlo]

Oh I understood you just fine. I do not think of a four to eight node cluster of XBoxs as being all that wonderful. I also know exactly how well the various OS's scale. I use a Windows2004 cluster and a Linux cluster daily.

I have done Bryce network renders. I have a network today. Bryce does not run well under emulation. It would be faster to spend the same amount of money and a less money buildng dirt cheap PCs and use every PC in the network to render. Maybe instead of 4 to 8, you end up with 3 to 5, but your net speed is far higher.... and unlike your Bryce on a Linux cluster of XBoxes hack, you install the free Bryce Lightening (network render client) on each PC not on a single cluster and use the distributed processing power.
And, I understand effeciency not just in resources and time, but also in effort.
The fact is you will spend many times the energy needed to get the xbox cluster going. More to maintain it. Your electrical bills will be higher. And ultimately Bryce will not run as well. So it is not a way to really get work done but as I said before a strange hobby which I simply do not understand.

Those who rail against supposed bloatware could instead spend a fraction of that time using google and there by learning how to tune XP and just turn off the stuff you do not want or need. Microsoft's products are well written. They are not the only way to get things done. But, punishing yourself by working twice as hard to "deny Bill Gates" your money is a false economy. Because you in the end only end up costing yourself.
I know about emulators, and all that jazz. I even was a Mac developer that did his dev work at home on an Amiga with a Mac emulator.
I just turned 45. I got in to PCs when I was in High School and I scrimped and saved and cut many cords of wood to buy a heath kit PC which came with just 2k of ram (once you finsihed solder it together). I worked the better part of a summer to earn the money to buy a Commodore C=64 (when they first came out). I also bought a 286 the same way. I later ditched the PC and got all passionate about the Amiga. I turned down early employment at Microsoft and instead pushed, advocated, and so on to try and get the Amiga more in business. Basically I was dumb. I have not learned much since then. But, one thing I definately learned is this. An OS is not a lifestyle. It is just a platform to run other programs. And, when you consider the price of the OS, consider also the value of your time. Linux does not cost anything to "buy". But, it is hardly free. It costs you a lot of time, and energy. It also costs you compatibility, ease of use, and a host of other self-inflicted wounds. To some, it is worth it. Mostly because they consider the OS itself their hobby and so they tinker with it every day. They often rant and rail at companies to support them better..... ignoring that their market share is less than 1%, and so is a bad deal to support as well as say a MAC which has 3-4% market share. And, the MAC at least is showing signs of life again.

For me, my time/money is best spend actually running the programs. For fun, I take pictures, render images, make units, go on hikes, play video games, and most importantly spend time with my 3 young kids.

If the XBox (or other Linux cluster) thing is a fun hobby for you, go for it. If you think that in the end you will be ahead with some lower total cost super computer, I think you will eventually conclude that it was based on a false economy. Hopefully it was fun reguardless.

 

[DJ Bonebraker]

You also forget that I'm just about 1 step away from full-fledged Electrical Engineer (I'm a full Electronics Tech and have over 8 years of actual experience as such, so I could easily set up a single-power distribution network for the X-Box cluster).

Before working on electronics as a carreer, I had about 10 years of experience with it as a hobby... Which explains why I'm paying $75 for my uncle to tool me parts to build an aluminum and brass case for my APC battery-backed power supply/surge suppressor (and using actual wall outlets and a Square D 15 amp circuit breaker in place of the cheap stamped brass sheet outlets and button breaker in the original). It's also why, instead of buying a new laptop to replace my obsolete and semi-defunct one (the LCD display is bad.... I could buy 3 LCD monitors for the price a new LCD display would cost, and to replace the miniature flourescent backlight, which is the actual problem, would cost about as much as one LCD monitor), I'm building a Micro-ATX portable PC with a standard 15 or 17 inch LCD monitor (stripped of all the plastic bits and mounted directly into the case) as the display: All I have to do when it becomes horribly obsolete would be to buy more memory, a new processor, or even swap out the motherboard, which costs a fraction of the price of a new laptop, or even a new PC.... The case will be made of brass, aluminum and braced with steel at strategic points, so it will outlast pretty much anything I'll put in it.

I'm a steampunk, and I look for longevity, ease of serviceability, and quality over flashy, useless crap and I consider planned obsolescence to be the ultimate industrial evil (hence why I modified an 65 year old US army field phone to be my desk phone, which should work for at least another 65 years, while my parents have run through at least 8 modern cordless phones in the past 10 years).

So basically what I'm saying is that TINKERING (whether it be mechanical, electrical or software) is not just my hobby, but my philosopy in life: Hence why I've modded every single PC game I've ever owned.

Edit: Basically, I have no beef with XP... It just that XP did the job very well, and then Bill Gates, the money grubber that he is, decided to come up with an OS that makes ME look good (and that's saying something there), in a pathetic attempt to grab even MORE money (like he doesn't already have more than enough). Of course the joke's on him: I've talked to a number of proffesionals (including the computer tech at Circuit City) who've expressed extreme displeasure with Vista and are going to be switching to Linux or going back to XP (in the case of Circuit City, the aforementioned tech said that the local stores, at least, had all bought SUSE linux for all the store-use computers because Vista was so crappy and inefficient).

Basically, my main plan is to have a Linux PC (or cluster) as a firewall (since Linux is virtually immune to worms, viruses and hacking)/fileserver (since Linux can read almost any OS's file system and pretty much vice-versa), with my two PCs (well three, if I have my portable hooked up) as my main graphics/whatever computers.

...I still won't buy Vista, though... It only proves the theory I postulated when Civ IV was first released: I could take a crap in a box and slap "New 3D Graphics" some where on it and it would sell. I mean, REALLY, what do you NEED 3D menues for. If you can answer that question, then I may acknowledge that your whole "false economy" rant might have a point (which is moot for me, since the only way I can afford anything decent is by cutting costs wherever I can... I don't make loads of money like you, or other computer engineer types do... I'm just a lowly electronics assembler who makes a measley $12 per hour, and that's considered good money where I live).