[BtS] DIPLOMACY: a mod for Diplogames!

[Vortilex]

Which one has the wrong button?

The maceman has the archer's button.

I am going to enhance Pirates, yes. But there won't be a bonus for defeating them. Potentially a relations boost with other civs, but that's it.

great

You have to go to custom game, and select 'choose religions' to get the new religions. Only seven religions will be founded in a game, but this time you (and the AI) get to choose their civs. Which means Saladin will choose Islam, Nebuchadnezzar will choose Anunnaki, Brennus will choose Druidism, etc.

Cool. I wonder if it's possible to get all of them in a game if you modify the XML/Python

 

[Edgecrusher]

The maceman has the archer's button.


great



Cool. I wonder if it's possible to get all of them in a game if you modify the XML/Python

No Python Needed.
The reason they all have that dummy tech, is so they dont all appear in the same game. They are all added, and give the chooser a larger pool to choose from if using the Choose Religion Options
So theoretically all you would have to do to get them all in 1 game is assign them each a technology. Say assign 1 to Mysticism, 1 to Monarchy, 1 to Music, 1 to Hunting, etc... Each Religion would have a tech to discover it.

I mean though, having so many religions defeats the purpose of having religions, if everyone has their own.


Just wanted to say this here, I posted something in the Computer Talk forum, about an issue I am having with my PC at home, if anyone who is tech savey wants to give it a look, I would appreciate any advice.

 

[The Capo]

Okay, I'm going to try to get the Flavian Amphitheatre to work tonight, and hopefully I can get the playtest out tomorrow or on Wednesday, either way it will definitely be out by the end of the week.

One question though; right now I am altering the code from Tsentom's Topkapi palace. In a nutshell this wonder strengthens your vassals (by giving them a bonus to gold and experience points) and gives you a 20% chance of constructing one of their UUs. What this means is that if you are Rome, and have vassalized the Vikings, whenever you build a Maceman there is a 20% chance that it will turn out a Beserker instead. You will not know what the unit will be until it is built. If you are Rome and have vassalized the Aztecs when you build a Praetorian it will always be a Praetorian, i.e. it will never be a Jaguar.

I am changing the code. First I am going to remove the strengthening vassals feature, I want it to be the Flavian Amphitheatre because of where it fits chronologically with the other wonders, and to me this makes no sense. If anything Rome attempted to weaken their vassals to keep them as their vassals (although they failed miserably in the late Empire/early Dark Ages). Since I am doing this I was thinking of adding another feature. The two I was thinking of adding were a Colosseum in every city OR no disorder in the city it is built in. Another change is that it no longer requires you to vassalize a player. It just takes it from all of the other civs in the game (by that I mean the particular game you are playing). So if you are the Greeks, and you are playing against the Sioux and the Persians you will have a chance to buid Dogsoldiers and Immortals, even if you are at war with them. If you conquer the Persians, you will only have the chance to build the Dogsoldiers. So the civ has to be in the game and must be alive. The alternative to a free Colosseum everywhere is that you will get a Gladiator every X amount of turns. The reason I don't like this one so much is because I planned on having the Colosseum obselete with either Engineering or Gunpowder (which are pretty close together anyway really). So basically these are the issues:

1. Should I give an extra benefit at all (besides the unit thing)?
2. Is a colosseum in every city better?
3. How about no disorder in the city?
4. Should I increase or decrease the possibility of building another civ's UU?
5. Is Gunpowder or Engineering a suitable obselete tech?
6. Should I make the Flavian Amphitheatre require a Colosseum in the city or is that redundant?

Try to chime in as quickly as possible, the quicker I get this resolved the quicker I can get the playtest out.

EDIT: @ Vortilex, I was considering adding another religion tech to the game so there would be eight rather than seven religions, but I decided against this. I am willing to revisit it of course, but eight is as high as I'll go. All you have to do is go into the ReligionInfos XML file and change the tech. I am not sure about this, but I THINK you would have to make a new button with the religion symbol, but I could be wrong. If I were to do this, I'd probably make Calendar the tech that pops another religion, and make Teotl the religion.

 

[Vortilex]

Sure, give an extra benefit, but I don't really know what it should be. One of the great things about mods is often the modder will surprise, so go ahead and add something, and hopefully no one will go, "now why did he add that?"
I'd rather a Colosseum in every city because the no disorder thing would only be one city, and therefore I wouldn't really bother with it.
You ought to increase the possibility of building another civ's UU, but I'd rather be able to build my vassal's UU's.
I think Gunpowder is a suitable obsolete tech.
Since there are many "redundant" things where you need x to build y but y is more of an expanded x, I would say go ahead and require a Colosseum.

Hope that helps

 

[cybrxkhan]

As for the Flavian Amphiteatre, all I can say right now is that I feel that Gunpowder is a better obsolete tech. It's later, and it makes more sense - in the sense that Engineering would make a lot less sense as an obsolete tech, since, well, the Romans were engineering masters, so... Eh.

 

[Edgecrusher]

As for the Flavian Amphiteatre, all I can say right now is that I feel that Gunpowder is a better obsolete tech. It's later, and it makes more sense - in the sense that Engineering would make a lot less sense as an obsolete tech, since, well, the Romans were engineering masters, so... Eh.

I actually wouldn't make the Wonder Obsolete. Only really because UU's are through all Eras, Basically having an obsolete tech, makes it so that any Civ with a Vassel with a UU that appears after gunpoweder (France, America, Germany, Spain, Russia, Netherlands, Ethiopia, who else?..)
wont get the benefit. Is the AI smart enough to not build it, if its not going to need it?

 

[AbsintheRed]

I get the idea of UU from every civ in the game, that gladiators can come from any nation.
But what if there are some civs you did not even meet yet? Ot what if a civ is totally closed (Toku for example). In these cases it would be very strange if you get those civ's UU...
So I would stick to the original, just a chance for you vassal's UU. It makes more sense this way.
It can require a Colosseum, and should not obsolete. It's a cool extra for vassalizing.
I'm not sure about free Colosseum in every city, maybe it's too much.

Also, I was thinking that maybe you could add Topkapi Palace too as an UB wonder. It would be really cool to have them both. Strengthens vassals, and can keep enemy UBs when you capture a city.
And of course a small chance (same as the UU wonder, probably should be at 20-30%) to build your vassals UB. Something like this
The best thing is that this shouldn't be hard to add after you manage to get Flavian Amphitheatre work


EDIT: Maybe the free Colosseum is not that much, some good bonus is needed even if you don't / can't have vassals. But if you add this, then make the wonder expensive enough

 

[The Capo]

I was going to remove the vassal requirement, and just make it an "is alive" requirement. Remember, the Romans trained their gladiators to fight like different people, a Thraex was made to fight like a Thracian, there were also Sarmatian, Greek, African, etc. styled gladiators (that always weren't from those lands) so the idea to me would be to create generic soldiers. Originally I wanted to do it for any active civ in the game, but I figured that would be unrealistic for the "fantasy history" that is created in a game of civ. But history aside, as a wonder it would be better if you had a bigger chance of building units, and so you aren't saturated with foreign UUs, I figured removing the vassal requirement would make it better. Perhaps I could change it to only civs you have contacted.

As far as the obslete goes; I understand Absinthe's point, but at the same time it should run its course at some point. Italy (as a geographical region, not the modern country) was extremely advanced in military development and engineering through the end of the Empire and to the Renaissance, after that I don't see much of a reason for the wonder to continue working.

The Topkapi wonder (as a UB wonder) could be a good idea too, and I'll consider that. I wanted to have the next playtest out by now, but I really want to revamp and improve the unit graphics (by that I actually mean adding some better ones, adding some new ones, and actually cutting some out that are fleeting and are simply taking up space). So the playtest should be out within the next couple of days. My birthday is on Wednesday though, so that might delay it a bit.

 

[The Almighty dF]

I'd stick with a free colloseum in every city, personally. The small chance of getting a UU just seems kinda worthless to me, since that UU isn't going to be that useful by itself.

 

[The Capo]

I'd stick with a free colloseum in every city, personally. The small chance of getting a UU just seems kinda worthless to me, since that UU isn't going to be that useful by itself.

That's a good point. And I am against adding wonders just for the sake of adding wonders, so I guess this begs the question; should I just take it out of the game altogether?

 

[Edgecrusher]

That's a good point. And I am against adding wonders just for the sake of adding wonders, so I guess this begs the question; should I just take it out of the game altogether?

You could always combine the 2.
i.e. you want a UU Wonder, and a UB Wonder, make them the same wonder, since the instances where they are usable are very specific, and sometimes may not come up (in the case the builder of the wonder is passive.

 

[The Capo]

I'd have to look at the UB wonder more specifically before I combine them. Right now the Flavian Amphitheatre is teetering on the edge of being cut. I am doing a very ambitious upgrade on all of the units, once a decision is made for the Flavian Amphitheatre I'll release the next playtest.

 

[robertb]

about the flavian theatre i would suggest a coloseum in every city and make it obsolet with engineering. Engineering feels more real since you can build the notre dame and thus it feels more right that the people abandon the colosseum in favour for the church.

 

[robertb]

i am looking at you units and they look very nice and good.
And to my BIG pleasure i discover swedish units. LOOOOOOOOOVLEY:
I must HAVE them !!!!!!!!!!!!

But the flag on them. NOT good, please make a swedish flag or the "3 crowns" symbol

(if this has been discussed before, please excuse me, i have a lot of posting to read thru)

 

[Edgecrusher]

about the flavian theatre i would suggest a coloseum in every city and make it obsolet with engineering. Engineering feels more real since you can build the notre dame and thus it feels more right that the people abandon the colosseum in favour for the church.

If it is obsoleted at Engineering (or even Gunpowder), I would just omit it.

Assuming it is available at Construction, and it has a heafty cost (500 hammers?), it wont be built quickly. It will probably be finished at the end of the Classical/Early Medieval era.

So your talking it is built by the time Engineering (Medieval Era) is discovered (depending on how fast techs are learned), for me its usually 1 tech every 7 to 8 turns at that point. Gunpowder is late Medieval/Early Renaissance, so at that point its only useable for only 1 Era.

If there is an obsolete tech, it should be Steel (IMO) or a tech in that range. That way the Wonder is useful for 2 Eras of gameplay.

One thing to check is:
If you give the wonder the ability to put a free colosseum in each city, what happens to these colosseums when the wonder becomes obsolete? Do they disappear? I have never tried anything like this, and the two wonders already provide this benefit Stonehenge/Monument (both go obsolete at the same time) and Eiffel Tower/Broadcast Tower (dont obsolete), dont give an example of what happens.

Another idea, is to give the Gladiator the ability to rush build a colosseum in cities. (Like the Great Prophets can build Shrines).
and make the Amphitheatre spawn Gladiators

Although, programing the AI to know what to do in that instance might be an issue, not sure.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I'd stick with a free colloseum in every city, personally. The small chance of getting a UU just seems kinda worthless to me, since that UU isn't going to be that useful by itself.

Whaat??
It's the whole point of the wonder. The bonus with free colosseums is just there to provide a bonus if you don't or can't have vassals in a game.
UUs can be very useful, even if they are not your original UU. If not else, you can join them to a GG, their bonuses remain even when you upgrade.
And of course it's a very cool flavor IMO, makes your wonder really unique.

So, if you don't want to add the UU feature, than don't add the wonder at all.
It would just be another boring new wonder without any uniqueness, unfortunatly many can be seen in other mods.

That's a good point. And I am against adding wonders just for the sake of adding wonders, so I guess this begs the question; should I just take it out of the game altogether?

If you can get the UU features to work properly, I would definietly add it (along with Topkapi Palace)
If they work, then it won't be an add just for the sake of adding wonders at all.
Again, I think the free Colosseums and the strengthens vassals bonuses are the extra bonuses for the UU and UB wonders, the main bonus is UU/UB features, not the other way around.


EDIT: Sry if this post is a mess. I already had a couple shots of absinthe tonight

EDIT2: I have the same concerns as EdgeCrusher about wonder obsolation. What will happen then to the free colosseums? I think it should never obsolete.
I can imagine a civ watching his neighbors closely, and trying to train something very similar to the enemies unique units. The 20-30% chance represents that trying, and of course this can happen through the whole game...

 

[The Almighty dF]

Whaat??
It's the whole point of the wonder. The bonus with free colosseums is just there to provide a bonus if you don't or can't have vassals in a game.
UUs can be very useful, even if they are not your original UU. If not else, you can join them to a GG, their bonuses remain even when you upgrade.
And of course it's a very cool flavor IMO, makes your wonder really unique.

So, if you don't want to add the UU feature, than don't add the wonder at all.
It would just be another boring new wonder without any uniqueness, unfortunatly many can be seen in other mods.



If you can get the UU features to work properly, I would definietly add it (along with Topkapi Palace)
If they work, then it won't be an add just for the sake of adding wonders at all.
Again, I think the free Colosseums and the strengthens vassals bonuses are the extra bonuses for the UU and UB wonders, the main bonus is UU/UB features, not the other way around.


EDIT: Sry if this post is a mess. I already had a couple shots of absinthe tonight

EDIT2: I have the same concerns as EdgeCrusher about wonder obsolation. What will happen then to the free colosseums? I think it should never obsolete.
I can imagine a civ watching his neighbors closely, and trying to train something very similar to the enemies unique units. The 20-30% chance represents that trying, and of course this can happen through the whole game...

Except that you don't get to choose what UU you get, and chances are you won't be fighting someone who has a useful UU you could get a small % chance of getting.
Unless you're playing against say, Rome, and you had this wonder during a time where Praetorians are still useful? Or Hannibal and his Berserkers?
Just seems way too situational, even when you ignore the fact that it's not a guaranteed chance to get said UU.

 

[Edgecrusher]

Except that you don't get to choose what UU you get, and chances are you won't be fighting someone who has a useful UU you could get a small % chance of getting.
Unless you're playing against say, Rome, and you had this wonder during a time where Praetorians are still useful? Or Hannibal and his Berserkers?
Just seems way too situational, even when you ignore the fact that it's not a guaranteed chance to get said UU.

I play with the wonder with a 25% chance, and you would be surprised how often it happens. If your concerned about the frequency, increase it to 50%. I have to say, its a wonder I usually am for, more so for the Great Engineer Points. That and when I play I usually playthe Revolutions mod, which creates lots of opportunities for vassalization.
If I get early Engineers (from the Pyramids/Forge) I usually save him to rush this wonder.

The way I have it set up:
Modular Python that uses Bug, so if you need the code, I will zip it up for you,
25% chance to train a vassals UU.
Available at Construction for 500 hammers.
Great Engineer Points.
never goes obsolete.
I make it never go obsolete because as I mentioned in an earlier post, if it only effects unique units, there isn't much chance to use it later in the game anway, so I didn't think it was necessary to take away the ability. In the off chance that you have vassalized America or Germany, its a nice bonus for you. That and if your adding more modern Civs, having their UU's available would be nice (Hungary's Hussar, Polands, Winged Hussar, Austria's Jager, Israels Merakava (if thats the UU not something else)).

That and the Colloseum is still standing. If wonders like the Statue of Zeus and Mausoleum dont expire (although I think thats an oversight), why would one that has an effect that becomes rarely used become obsolete?.

"Tourism effect", I set to give commerce after 200 turns too.

But, I mean increasing the Odds, or adding the Unique Building Capture ability that Tsentom1's Flavian Amphitheatre has, wouldnt be that difficult.

 

[The Capo]

The AI "knowing" how to use the wonder is basically irrelevant. What is there to know? There is no control over what unit you get. I just have to flavor it for military and that's about it. And if there are free Colosseums in every city I don't know what happens, but doesn't stonehenge give you a free Monument in every city? So what happens with that? (I never build Stonehenge, I usually go for the Oracle first). So that should answer our questions here. My reason for obseleting it at Gunpowder was that there'd be no reason to fight in an arena with guns, it'd kinda be stupid and boring really. But I suppose I could bump it up to Military Science if that makes everyone feel better, or I could increase the chance from 20% to something like 40% or 50% although I think 50% might be too high.

EDIT: I am willing to have it not obselete, although I'd personally rather have it obselete. For commerce I could also add something simple like +1 gold from all Colosseums or something like that too, because a lot of money is generated around Colosseums whether "legitimate" (selling food, tickets, slaves, drawing people to market) or illicit (prostitution, gambling etc.). If I add this I will also add a similar wonder for buildings, although I'd rather shy away from the Topkapi wonder as the wonder, simply because the graphics aren't available (the one Tsentom uses looks NOTHING like the actual Topkapi palace to the point that I am shocked he used it).

 

[The Almighty dF]

I play with the wonder with a 25% chance, and you would be surprised how often it happens. If your concerned about the frequency, increase it to 50%. I have to say, its a wonder I usually am for, more so for the Great Engineer Points. That and when I play I usually playthe Revolutions mod, which creates lots of opportunities for vassalization.
If I get early Engineers (from the Pyramids/Forge) I usually save him to rush this wonder.

The way I have it set up:
Modular Python that uses Bug, so if you need the code, I will zip it up for you,
25% chance to train a vassals UU.
Available at Construction for 500 hammers.
Great Engineer Points.
never goes obsolete.
I make it never go obsolete because as I mentioned in an earlier post, if it only effects unique units, there isn't much chance to use it later in the game anway, so I didn't think it was necessary to take away the ability. In the off chance that you have vassalized America or Germany, its a nice bonus for you. That and if your adding more modern Civs, having their UU's available would be nice (Hungary's Hussar, Polands, Winged Hussar, Austria's Jager, Israels Merakava (if thats the UU not something else)).

That and the Colloseum is still standing. If wonders like the Statue of Zeus and Mausoleum dont expire (although I think thats an oversight), why would one that has an effect that becomes rarely used become obsolete?.

"Tourism effect", I set to give commerce after 200 turns too.

But, I mean increasing the Odds, or adding the Unique Building Capture ability that Tsentom1's Flavian Amphitheatre has, wouldnt be that difficult.

Still just seems kinda pointless, to have a wonder that is only really useful if you vassalize someone before their UU loses its usefulness. I guess that's great against those that have modern UUs, but more than half of the UUs would more than likely be useless by the time you get this wonder and vassalize that Civilization.
However, I do like the idea of adding a UB bonus to it as well. That -would- make it useful, but preferably if it's a 100% chance as long as that civ is vassalized.

So mabye...
50% chance of vassalized nation's UU
You gain the ability to build said nation's UB until they are no longer your vassal (at which point you keep your already built UBs, but all future versions will be the base building).

However, that'd only work if you could somehow pick if you want to build said UB. Like say your UB is a barracks, and the enemy's UB is a barracks, and yours happens to be better.