[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[arstal]

I like the Bombard idea.

That, Fusiliers, and Motorized Infantry would be the three new units I'd love to see in your next update.

Maybe Fusiliers and Grenadiers could co-exist, Fusiliers with Mil Science and Grens with Mil Tradition?

Fusiliers- 12 Str, Musketman Upgrade and Draft Unit.
Grens- 10 Str, 50% vs Cities, Not a Draft Unit. This would make it a specialist unit. Maybe make this the unit Pikeman/Macemen upgrade to? Grens would upgrade to Maine. Or make it lose City Raider promotions but gain infiltration promotion. Or trade promotions if that is possible?

Is there any way to make city raider promotions not work on gunpowder units though?
Really not a fan of the CR musketman exploit that's doable in the mod.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Really not a fan of the CR musketman exploit that's doable in the mod.

I assume you speak of upgrading a CR3 swordsman or maceman-type of unit into a CR3 Musketman? It's doable in the base-game too... the only way to get-rid of
that would be to prevent the CR series of promotions from the early units all-together... as it is now in the mod, NO UNIT (gunpowder, tanks, nobody) gets CR promotion other then the ancient infantry... but yes, whatever ancient units survive, can be promoted to modern units... and I'm sure not going to prevent the upgrade path and force everyone to rebuild entire armies from scratch.

On a totally unrelated note, I went-ahead and finally added a "reading" for the quote when you discover the one and only new tech in the mod, Air Superiority... so now you'll get that little "gong" followed by the reading of the quote... and no... it's not my voice... I was going to do the reading myself, but any recording on my end always has "the sound of air" in the background and that wasn't high-enough quality for the mod, so I had to think of another solution that was a "clean" recording of the reading I wanted. I hope folks like it.

 

[phungus420]

On a totally unrelated note, I went-ahead and finally added a "reading" for the quote when you discover the one and only new tech in the mod, Air Superiority... so now you'll get that little "gong" followed by the reading of the quote... and no... it's not my voice... I was going to do the reading myself, but any recording on my end always has "the sound of air" in the background and that wasn't high-enough quality for the mod, so I had to think of another solution that was a "clean" recording of the reading I wanted. I hope folks like it.

Little things like this are awesome, makes your mod quite professional in quality.

 

[arstal]

I assume you speak of upgrading a CR3 swordsman or maceman-type of unit into a CR3 Musketman? It's doable in the base-game too... the only way to get-rid of
that would be to prevent the CR series of promotions from the early units all-together... as it is now in the mod, NO UNIT (gunpowder, tanks, nobody) gets CR promotion other then the ancient infantry... but yes, whatever ancient units survive, can be promoted to modern units... and I'm sure not going to prevent the upgrade path and force everyone to rebuild entire armies from scratch.

On a totally unrelated note, I went-ahead and finally added a "reading" for the quote when you discover the one and only new tech in the mod, Air Superiority... so now you'll get that little "gong" followed by the reading of the quote... and no... it's not my voice... I was going to do the reading myself, but any recording on my end always has "the sound of air" in the background and that wasn't high-enough quality for the mod, so I had to think of another solution that was a "clean" recording of the reading I wanted. I hope folks like it.

My idea was kinda clumsy- but it was to give all post-medieval units bonus against city raider promotion.

Or this idea.

Implement an age system for units like you did for naval unit, and give CR promotions a penalty vs gunpowder and modern age units equal to the level of the promotion's benefit.

No idea if either of those are workable, or practical. That said, it does make the most sense, as it would allow CR to still be murderous if you have a tech advantage.

 

[Ninja2]

Why exactly is it a problem if CRIII promotions are carried over to gunpowder units?

 

[Perfxion]

A unit would have to fight a lot, then survive many battles, then get upgraded to be of use. If a warrior/axemen/swardsmen/macemen/spearman/pikeman could fight enough to get up to city raider III then it deserves to keep its promotions. It would be an elite fighting unit and a rare one, so it wouldn't be going into a battle without a clear victory in sight. And it isn't an exploit if it takes a long time for it to happen. its not the 1 gold for 100 gold trade exploit that used to be in the game.

 

[von Krysiak]

A unit would have to fight a lot, then survive many battles, then get upgraded to be of use. If a warrior/axemen/swardsmen/macemen/spearman/pikeman could fight enough to get up to city raider III then it deserves to keep its promotions. It would be an elite fighting unit and a rare one, so it wouldn't be going into a battle without a clear victory in sight. And it isn't an exploit if it takes a long time for it to happen. its not the 1 gold for 100 gold trade exploit that used to be in the game.

I totally agree, that would be a kind of elite unit upgraded with most recent weapons available to the country of origin.
In my oppinion it would be just a formation with a lot of experience/tradition - I see where you are coming from that such units are overpowered but lets be honest how many can you have 2, 3?

It would have been a real issue/exploit if them units would be very common but a few per nation is just a nice flavor rather than an exploit ;-)

BTW: just came back after a few month absence - good job keeping the project going guys!!!

 

[Wodan]

Claims that you can only have a few are totally not true.

1) It's not that hard to get dozens in the first place

2) Even if the timing isn't right and you don't have any early wars, all you have to do is not upgrade as many maces as you like. Soften up defenses with Cannon or Artillery. It's trivial for your maces to clean up the weakened / shelled infantry (or whatever is defending). Once you promote to CRIII, then upgrade.

 

[von Krysiak]

Claims that you can only have a few are totally not true.

1) It's not that hard to get dozens in the first place

2) Even if the timing isn't right and you don't have any early wars, all you have to do is not upgrade as many maces as you like. Soften up defenses with Cannon or Artillery. It's trivial for your maces to clean up the weakened / shelled infantry (or whatever is defending). Once you promote to CRIII, then upgrade.

Well the thing is: everything depends on the point of view Wodan. I am looking from a point of view of a casual gamer playing multiplayer with one or two friends - not interested in cheating at all. Now I am also sure that the AI won't be doing the same thing although you are right if AI upgrades some of the older experienced units it might have a few more powerful units than human player.

To me it is not a major issue but I see where you are coming from ;-)

 

[arstal]

Let's just say if I get an early rush, I can steamroll the CPU sometimes and it gets too easy.

This results in me either having to jack up difficulty and always exploit crap, or not early rush to get a fair game.

Has anyone anywhere come up with a workaround for this though?

 

[Wolfshanze]

Let's just say if I get an early rush, I can steamroll the CPU sometimes and it gets too easy.

This results in me either having to jack up difficulty and always exploit crap, or not early rush to get a fair game.

Has anyone anywhere come up with a workaround for this though?

I'm not sure there is a "problem" in the first place... if CR3 guys getting upgraded to gunpowder units bothers you that much, I would say stop upgrading your melee guys to CR3 and/or don't upgrade them to gunpowder units.

It's not like I've ever encountered the AI coming at me with swarms of CR3 gunpowder units, so the only one/person doing this would/could be the human player.

If you don't like it, you have total control not to do it... personally, I don't see it as a huge problem. Also, if I have CR3 gunpowder units, they rarely get any further upgrades since (unless attached to a GG), their experience level gets dropped to a mere 10-points when they get upgraded to gunpowder units anyways.

 

[Wodan]

I am looking from a point of view of a casual gamer playing multiplayer with one or two friends - not interested in cheating at all.

Why would utilizing a game feature be "cheating"? Simply because the AI does not do it (not fully anyway)?

Under that definition there is a TON of stuff that would be cheating.

Also, if I have CR3 gunpowder units, they rarely get any further upgrades since (unless attached to a GG), their experience level gets dropped to a mere 10-points when they get upgraded to gunpowder units anyways.

Agree, it's a good player-decision point.

Though, to be honest it's not all that hard to get 6-10 GGs, which is a sideslip of the decision.

Anyway, this never really bothered me because I thought it was overpowered. If anything, it's because it seems somewhat incongrous that you can upgrade to something that you can't build new. Of course, the same is true of other promotion/unit situations as well. CR is not an exception.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Agree, it's a good player-decision point.

Though, to be honest it's not all that hard to get 6-10 GGs, which is a sideslip of the decision.

Meh... I NEVER assign GGs to ground-pounders... I always assign them to Cavalry units (get the medic promotions), then later-on upgrade them to tanks (hey, no medic promotion for tanks... another CR-type promotion exploit!).

Heck, even after the advent of tanks, cavalry is still available until the coming of the gunship, so if I want a new late-game GG, I'll build a cavalry, assign the GG, get the medic promotions, then upgrade him to a tank!

Let's hear those "cheatin/exploit" complaints!

 

[Wodan]

Meh... I NEVER assign GGs to ground-pounders... I always assign them to Cavalry units (get the medic promotions), then later-on upgrade them to tanks (hey, no medic promotion for tanks... another CR-type promotion exploit!).

Heck, even after the advent of tanks, cavalry is still available until the coming of the gunship, so if I want a new late-game GG, I'll build a cavalry, assign the GG, get the medic promotions, then upgrade him to a tank!

Let's hear those "cheatin/exploit" complaints!

Maybe you should give it a try, then. A CR III mech inf is pretty huge.

I went through a "stage" where I was exploring the abuse of GG strategies. Really opened my eyes on a few things.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Maybe you should give it a try, then. A CR III mech inf is pretty huge.

Pfft... a speed-3, 5-star, commando-moving, Blitz-enabled Heavy Tank with gunpowder and trench warfare bonuses just doesn't lose in field or in cities... and you get to attack over and over and over again.

How many times does your CR3 Gunpowder units get to attack a turn... once? Mine get to attack 3-times as often and go strike deep into enemy territory.

Thanks but no thanks... I'd rather have another commando-blitzing tank that can attack multiple times a turn then a CR3 gunpowder unit that is effective only a 1/3 of the time my GG Tank is.

All my games are also long-over before I even get to Mech Infantry... I don't feel like waiting 5,950 years of game time before a GG becomes useful... most of my games are done by then anyways. You're probably getting to Mech Infantry technology because you have too many GGs dedicated to Gunpowder units waiting for Mech Infantry... you could have finished your game by now if you had assigned them as Cavalry/Tank units!

 

[arstal]

I almost wish CR was removed from the game entirely at times, I think it makes it too easy.

My adj to CR would be for it to add a penalty if the unit is a gunpowder unit, or a penalty equal to the bonus against any post-medieval unit.

Usually my GG's are cev units to maximize withdrawal, or ground pounders to make them move as fast as cav with CR promotions.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I almost wish CR was removed from the game entirely at times, I think it makes it too easy.

My adj to CR would be for it to add a penalty if the unit is a gunpowder unit, or a penalty equal to the bonus against any post-medieval unit.

Usually my GG's are cev units to maximize withdrawal, or ground pounders to make them move as fast as cav with CR promotions.

I don't agree... when you run into AI defenders with CG3 sitting in cities founded on hills, sometimes a CR3 unit is the only one that can reliably crack the defenses (well, without committing your entire GNP budget for a century to the conquest of one city).

I'm fine with CR as-is... I've never seen the AI abuse it, so if it's a personal issue, the simple answer is not to do it yourself. My biggest happy-factor with CR promotions was simply removing it from the Armored Units category... it never belonged there in the 1st place.

If it really, REALLY bugs you, you can remove the CR promotions on your own end... but good-luck when you come-up against CG3 units in cities on hills.

 

[Perfxion]

I know you said you wanted to make a 2 speed infantry unit. Why not make a "speed" promotion for ground units. Combat 3/4 level and enable it to the Military Science tech.

 

[Feyaria]

First of all, a great mod! I just tried it out for the first time and like a lot of your changes. But I found some things that doesnt seem right:

- Fallschirmjäger have range 5 instead of 7 from paratrooper. I think you missed that as you changed the paratrooper.

- Scythe chariot gets defensive bonus, isnt it only an offensive unit?

- Naval unit from Age of Steam till Dreathnoughts are possible without Astronomy! In my last game, i had the Colossus, so i delayed Astronomy. Later i built the Trafalgar Square and had 5 commerce in coastal tiles (financial leader) This lead to an huge tech advantage and an early domination victory. I wonder how my paddle steamer found the way to the last enemy without proper navigation.

- Viet Cong looks a bit overpowered: 2 moves, 20% withdraw and woodsman I + II. thats more bonus than any other UU gets.
With 10 xp you can make crazy things like guerliia III for 70% withdraw or woodsman III + combat I + medic I for a super medic.
Ho-Chi Minh is protective, so woodsman III + drill line for uncountable first strikes.

- With combustion you get access to oil, but the ships that come with combustion are only fueled by coal, this seems a bit strange to me.


A note to the CG vs CR theme:

CG III give an additional +10% vs melee, but CR III gives +10% vs gunpowder. Thats the reason why CG III longbows are so strong vs maces and CR III units upgraded to rifles/infantry so strong vs defening gunpowder units.

On the other hand, with rifles and infantry, you never ever attack healthy defenders. Its always better to soften them up with cannons/artillery first. An upgraded CR III infatry will have 99,9 % chance against a wounded defender , while a Combat I - Pinch infantry will "only" have 99,2% or soemthing like this. And the later one is useable outside cities too.

In a Japan game, i never upgraded my CR Samurais, i wanted to get them to CR III + Drill IV before upgrading them to Infantry. The game ended with about 10 Samurais with about 40 to 50 XP, protected by infantry and tanks. With that many first strikes, the samurais often didnt get hurt even when killing wounded rilfies/infantry.

 

[Xenomorph]

- With combustion you get access to oil, but the ships that come with combustion are only fueled by coal, this seems a bit strange to me.

Pretty much all future units require oil, so you can see oil at combustion so you know where it is and can plan your expansion (and conquest) accordingly.