[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Healz]

You actually think canons are that good Arstal? I actually find cannons to be a useless unit. I tend to go in and send in enough units and all the cannon really is, is a waste of hammers, especially since you have to be right next to the city anyway to use them. The first bombardment mission I tend to use in my games is the fighter/bomber mission in the modern age to bomb the cities and units. Much more useful and has better range. At least make cannons range 2 units around themselves, Artillery 3, and Radar Artillery/Modern Artillery 4. Much more useful for someone like me. And make Radar Artillery a slight bit faster. It really seems so uselessly slow in the game...

 

[phungus420]

You actually think canons are that good Arstal? I actually find cannons to be a useless unit.

At least the way I usually tech, cannons do dominate my game when they come out. They are usually the best defenders I have in a stack, as well as the best for offense in almost every situation. They probably should be moved back again with a transitional bombard unit available earlier.

Historically speaking, adding a TECH_MUSKET wouldn't be that bad of an idea (And adding techs is probably the easiest thing to do). Cannons came out considerably before muskets (In the case of your mod you would name the early cannon Bombard obviously-- For stats I woudn't use 6 x2 for city attack, I'd use 7 + 50% city attack). Also it wouldn't lessen the lifespan of the Musket, as you would change Military Science to also require this tech (along with chemistry), and Rifling would be changed as well. Simple enough and I think you'd rather like it. Adding a single tech, or 2 given the scope of your mod would probably work out for the best, historically speaking and for gameplay. Lord knows it worked for the Air_Superiority tech. The more I think about this, the more I really like the idea of this change. If you do add in a bombard, make sure you change the Korean UU!

I'm not too big of a fan for changing the gren. I agree with you completely that the musket->gren->rifle progression works very well and I don't see any reason to alter this. Renaming it would probably be better aesthetically though, as you commented. But finding the art and doing the XML changes is a lot of work. I think you have more important things on your plate right now as far as this mod goes. I'd much rather see motorized infantry and other tweaks you have planned come out then an aesthetics only alteration. At the end of the day though, your priorities are your own, mods like these are hobbies, you work on parts of it that are the most fun (at least I always did on my mod).

Since people are throwing out suggestions left and right, figure I'd drop in another 2 cents worth. I really think you should add in a cog for late middle ages transportation, something akin to the galleas (though I'd tag it on engineering instead of guilds). Lord knows people weren't transporting goods around in 2000BC trireme like galleys in the late middle ages (The unit art is already there as well--Id' even dig them up for you if you seriously consider it). Also I think adding a cog would really flush out the navy in terms of gameplay and allow you to push back the Galleon to Gunpowder where it should be.

 

[walbeek]

You are right Wolf that the progression of musketman 9, Grenadier 12, Rifleman 14 is fine. Who cares too much about the name/animation of the Grenadier.

I agree

However! Where I tend to get upset is gunpowder units and siege weapons. Musketmen usually end up fighting alongside trebuchets for a long time, kind of wierd even the turks were using cannon in 1453 at Constantinople before they had many musket men. Then chemistry and bang! musketmen are totally outclassed by the cannon. ...

Where the game runs into problems is the early gunpowder age. This is because it makes musketmen arrive first, when actually cannons arrived first (early handguns were useless, matchlocks were first effective firearms) what about having the "bombard" unit (siege str 6 double vs city) arrive with gunpowder and then have the cannon 12 arrive with military science along with the grenadier and cuirassier. Finally perhaps add the tech "musket" which is between gunpowder and chemistry and adds the musket unit, just like rifle has its own tech. This way armies will consist of knights, musketmen, pikemen and bombards (nice representation of 16th-17th century warfare) and then go into cuirassier, grenadier, cannon (excellent simulation of 18th-early 19th century warfare) and then on into rifles, cavalry, cannon (late 19th to early 20th century) What do you think? This way cannons do not dominate musketmen in the 16th-17th century, which is more accurate.

I second an early-cannon. I don't care much for an additional tech. It's good to add an early cannon in with gunpowder, along with musket to fill up the gap from treb to cannon.

I'm not too big of a fan for changing the gren

Seconded

Since people are throwing out suggestions left and right, figure I'd drop in another 2 cents worth. I really think you should add in a cog for late middle ages transportation, something akin to the galleas (though I'd tag it on engineering instead of guilds). Lord knows people weren't transporting goods around in 2000BC trireme like galleys in the late middle ages (The unit art is already there as well--Id' even dig them up for you if you seriously consider it). Also I think adding a cog would really flush out the navy in terms of gameplay and allow you to push back the Galleon to Gunpowder where it should be.

I don't agree. Yes, Cogs were used in late middle ages, but adding it to the game wouldn't add anithing to the game (playablity is something to keep always in mind). And Galleas were actually used up within the 17th century. As for the cog graphics you sugest. I believe Wolf had allready put them in for some nations as a recplacement for the caravel (graphic-wise).

 

[phungus420]

I don't agree. Yes, Cogs were used in late middle ages, but adding it to the game wouldn't add anithing to the game (playablity is something to keep always in mind). And Galleas were actually used up within the 17th century. As for the cog graphics you sugest. I believe Wolf had allready put them in for some nations as a recplacement for the caravel (graphic-wise).

Well I disagree. And I used to have cogs in there, and I rather liked how they worked from a gameplay perspective. Made them 3/3 carried 2, and could enter ocean with Astro, moved the galleon to Astro + Gun. I thought it offered a good transition unit between galleys and galleons. There is a huge gap between sailing and Astro, and throwing in a unit at Engineering that could stand up to triremes and had +1 movement on galleys added alot actually.

 

[tomppb]

Well there seems to be a lot of consensus that an early cannon unit "the bombard" should come in at gunpowder (as for its stats I like str 6x2 vs city but other possibilities are fine, it just shouldn't be too powerful in the field, knights should eat them, but it should be much better than the trebuchet at attacking cities)

The cannon,everyone seems to agree should come in later. My vote is at military science, but chemistry is too soon for sure as the cannon just totally dominates units at that point (even knights fear the cannon)

So what are your thoughts wolf? We getting a 2.85 anytime soon

 

[Wolfshanze]

Well there seems to be a lot of consensus that an early cannon unit "the bombard" should come in at gunpowder (as for its stats I like str 6x2 vs city but other possibilities are fine, it just shouldn't be too powerful in the field, knights should eat them, but it should be much better than the trebuchet at attacking cities)

The cannon,everyone seems to agree should come in later. My vote is at military science, but chemistry is too soon for sure as the cannon just totally dominates units at that point (even knights fear the cannon)

So what are your thoughts wolf? We getting a 2.85 anytime soon

Wolf's thoughts...

1) Consider the Bombard a feature of the next version... probably a Str 6x2 vs city at Gunpowder... Cannon pushed back to Military Science... CHECK

2) I like the Cog idea (I already have the graphic) as a Medieval Transport (to complement the Galleass) at Engineering. I'm thinking Str-3, Move-2, Cargo-3, coastal-only... never seen a Cog in the New World. Probably give a small bump in combat Str to the Caravel and Galleon... from 3 and 4, to 4 and 5 respectively... I believe there's still room and justification in the Age of Sail units for such numbers (I think the Frigate owns the Galleon just a tad much, and the Galleon and Caravel don't own the earlier units as much as they should). Consider the Cog a feature of the next version... CHECK

Oh, and as for the comment of "Wolf already has the Cog in the Mod as an alternate Caravel"... no, me-thinks you're confusing the Carrack with a Cog... two different ships.

As for "When will we see v2.85?"... well... it more depends on when I'm willing to give-up my current game vs finishing it... because all these changes would wreck save-game compatibility. I'm currently in about WWII tech with my game and I'm starting to steamroll everyone... which is both fun and boring at the same time.

If I want to finish my game, it could be a week or two before I can release a new version... if I say "what the frak" and just give up on it, I could have v2.85 in the next couple of days or so... I've been slowly accumulating changes that didn't wreck save-game compatibility for awhile now, so I do have more changes then what I'm listing above.

Dunno... I think it's been over a month since the last update... you'll have a new version when the mood strikes I suppose!


P.S.
Nobody ever gave me feedback on the AI MG-use change in v2.84. I've played ONE game with the changes, and from my own observations, there's some good and a little bad... the good? Well, the change was for the better over the previous use... the AI does build riflemen along with MG, as opposed to nothing-but MG as it did with the old AI routine, and it won't include MGs in offensive city-taking stacks... the bad? Still a bit-heavy on the MG building for what I think the AI should do... Unless the AI is actually on an offensive mission to take out an enemy city, it tends to not have any "mobile defense" units inside it's own borders... not that the AI does much "mobile defending" anyways... but I personally wouldn't have that many MGs. Overall, the current AI for MGs is better then the old and certainly better then default (when it would almost never build any)... but I still gotta tweak it at some point.

 

[phungus420]

Everything sounds good, but I really think 6x2 against cities will be a little too strong. Gunpowder is a pretty early tech, and the best defensive unit around at the time will be muskets at 9, and more commonly longbows at 6. Even with defensive bonuses the collateral damage is going to put them a little over the top. I'd be more comfortable with a 6 with 50% city attack bonus, that way they are certainly better then trebs and cats in every way, and not too strong. Just my take on it anyway. And remember to change the Hwacha's replacement (so it supplants the bombard instead of the cat).

 

[Wolfshanze]

Everything sounds good, but I really think 6x2 against cities will be a little too strong. Gunpowder is a pretty early tech, and the best defensive unit around at the time will be muskets at 9, and more commonly longbows at 6. Even with defensive bonuses the collateral damage is going to put them a little over the top. I'd be more comfortable with a 6 with 50% city attack bonus, that way they are certainly better then trebs and cats in every way, and not too strong. Just my take on it anyway. And remember to change the Hwacha's replacement (so it supplants the bombard instead of the cat).

Hmmm... well 6x2 is 12 (same as Cannon) and 6+50% is 9... only 1-point better then Trebuchet.

How about 6+75%? That would be 10.5 against cities, and fairly well-placed between Trebuchs and Cannons.

 

[tomppb]

6 +75% bombard sounds great! I can't wait for a new version woo hoo! I like the idea of a Cog too.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Okay... I have a lovely COG ship model for the mod, but some fool attached it to the FRIGATE animation so it fires CANNONS! Aargh!... Cog's are MEDIEVAL SHIPS! They fought with arrows!

Now I have to get that fixed!

 

[Milly]

Hmmm... well 6x2 is 12 (same as Cannon) and 6+50% is 9... only 1-point better then Trebuchet.

How about 6+75%? That would be 10.5 against cities, and fairly well-placed between Trebuchs and Cannons.

Umm. Just FYI... City attack bonuses apply to the defender. Though, yeah, str 6 and a +75% city attack bonus seem good.

Now I have a question for this unit. If you add it in, are you thinking of giving the knight a bonus against it much like how the horseman gets a bonus (+50%) against catapults and the cavalry (also +50%) gets a bonus against the cannon? Or not? I can see it going either way, since the knight has a higher strength (10 vs 6, when compared to 6 vs 5 and 15 vs 12), but... yeah.

As for the machine gunners, I really haven't noticed too much. I unfortunately have a bad habit of waiting until I get mechanized infantry before warring (since I screw things up before then), so... *Shrugs*

 

[Fin Imperial]

I can't seem to be able to play Wolfshanze Mod 2.84 properly... Every time I start playing the game, it crashes to the desktop. Plus, Civilopedia doesn't show unit graphics, just empty space where they should be. Any patch/post that I have missed fixes this?
Oh, and I do have 3.17

 

[phungus420]

Two quick things in the unitinfos.xml file I just noticed you probably want to change.

1) I think you have the ibombardrate of Trebs and Cannons switched. Trebs is 14%/turn and Cannons is 8%/turn. These should be switched with the new bombard falling somewhere in between.

2) The transport ships are missing the unitAIs for transport_missionary and transport_spy (I think that's what they are, check the caravel's unitAI tags). That's how default CIV ships, but it's bad design. These tags are only on caravals and subs, so when the AI doesn't have caravals or subs (early and middle game) it is unable to ship missionaries and spys. I added these UnitAI tags to transport ships in my game and haven't noticed any problems. Only thing I've seen is the AI actually shipping over missionaries to island cities (All be it rarely, but at least the AI can and sometimes will do it if you add these tags).

 

[tomppb]

Hey wolf at what tech will cogs appear? And maybe I'm getting really crazy but do you ever make random events? If so a Hanseatic League event having to do with Cog construction would be a nice flavor event, siimilar to the harbor master event.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Where the game runs into problems is the early gunpowder age. This is because it makes musketmen arrive first, when actually cannons arrived first (early handguns were useless, matchlocks were first effective firearms) what about having the "bombard" unit (siege str 6 double vs city) arrive with gunpowder and then have the cannon 12 arrive with military science along with the grenadier and cuirassier. Finally perhaps add the tech "musket" which is between gunpowder and chemistry and adds the musket unit, just like rifle has its own tech. This way armies will consist of knights, musketmen, pikemen and bombards (nice representation of 16th-17th century warfare) and then go into cuirassier, grenadier, cannon (excellent simulation of 18th-early 19th century warfare) and then on into rifles, cavalry, cannon (late 19th to early 20th century) What do you think? This way cannons do not dominate musketmen in the 16th-17th century, which is more accurate.

Okay... I've had a change of heart here... I really don't want to go around adding a bunch of new techs, but I think this one might be worth adding. I'll add either a "Flintlock" or "Musket" tech inbetween Gunpowder and Chemistry... When I speak of adding this tech, think of "Flintlock" or "Musket" as the "new Gunpowder"... and think of "Gunpowder" as nothing-more then an early (Medieval) entry-point for the Bombard... in-fact, I'll switch Gunpowder from a Renaissance to a Medieval tech, and make the new Flintlock tech the new entry-point to the Renaissance... in short, Gunpowder will now do little more then add the Bombard to the game... the "kick" effect of musketmen, pinch promotions and most of the weapon techs will actually now come with Flintlock (which is why I said Flintlock will be the new Gunpowder). This will have multiple impacts (all for the good)...

1) Bombards will now be introduced in the Medieval Age...
2) This will actually lengthen the lifespan of late medieval times, rather then shorten the musket period (which will be the same length).
3) This will also lengthen the useful time of Cogs and Galleasses (Medieval ships)
4) Galleons will now come with Astronomy + Gunpowder (instead of JUST Astronomy).
5) Privateers and Frigates will come with Astronomy + Flintlock (instead of Astronomy + Gunpowder)

I'll also now require that the Rifling tech needs Military Science... which means you can't skip-over Grenadiers (and Cannons which will now be with Military Science).

Two quick things in the unitinfos.xml file I just noticed you probably want to change.

1) I think you have the ibombardrate of Trebs and Cannons switched. Trebs is 14%/turn and Cannons is 8%/turn. These should be switched with the new bombard falling somewhere in between.

2) The transport ships are missing the unitAIs for transport_missionary and transport_spy (I think that's what they are, check the caravel's unitAI tags). That's how default CIV ships, but it's bad design. These tags are only on caravals and subs, so when the AI doesn't have caravals or subs (early and middle game) it is unable to ship missionaries and spys. I added these UnitAI tags to transport ships in my game and haven't noticed any problems. Only thing I've seen is the AI actually shipping over missionaries to island cities (All be it rarely, but at least the AI can and sometimes will do it if you add these tags).

1) By default, Cats are 8% and Trebs are 16%... Cannons are 12%.... but I think this has to do with how castles and walls are factored-in. Bombards will act more like Cannons (ignore building defenses) and less like Cats and Trebs (so 12%).
2) I'll look into that... I suppose that should be looked at for ALL transports, not just "Transports".

Hey wolf at what tech will cogs appear? And maybe I'm getting really crazy but do you ever make random events? If so a Hanseatic League event having to do with Cog construction would be a nice flavor event, siimilar to the harbor master event.

The Medieval ships will appear during Medieval times...
1) Cogs: Compass+Engineering
2) Galleass: Compass+Guilds
3) Caravel/Carrack: Optics (unchanged)

I haven't really thought about the random events... that's a whole 'nother matter. My head already hurts with the changes I've done over the past 24 hours.

Oh... and success... with a little help from Coyote, the Cogs are firing arrows now like they should instead of cannons. That's the status report for now... time to watch some NFL.

 

[tomppb]

Brilliant changes that will really increase the flavor of the game in the critical 15th-19th centuries.

Bombards will represent the revolution that was workable cannons. All of a sudden all the medievial walls were an actual detriment. cannons could fire on a flat trajectory at the base of the walls. Before, the taller the wall the better, with the bombards the height of the wall ie its weight actually worked against it as undermining the base caused the wall to collapse in a convienient pile of rubble to walk into the castle. This more than anything else guaranteed the end of the independent nobleman. The king's artillery could lay his castle low in a matter of days rather than expensive month long sieges. That being said, early bombards were extremely slow firing and on the field of battle quite vulnerable. The inclusion of the bombard is thus in my view a great addition to us history nuts

In addition musketmen will serve alongside bombards and knights instead of trebuchets and knights will fear their real historic nemesis, pikemen, not cannon (think the battle of Pavia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pavia)
This set of units also portrays the 17th century think Gustavus Adolphus and the thirty years war very well.

Then with cannon put with cuirassier and grenadiers we enter the golden age of gunpowder warfare, when the three branches were fairly equal. Artillery could pound infantry from a distance, but cavalry could sweep away artillery,but infantry's solid ranks could fend off cavalry etc.

I really like the additional medievial navel units, the middle ages occupies a big chunk of the game and you are stuck with classical antiquity's transport. Yeah Cog.

anyway, can you tell I'm excited. Thanks for the hard work Wolf, looking forward to it.

Lastly I take it castles will be moved forward to feudalism?

 

[Wolfshanze]

Yes, Castles are moving forward to Feudalism... all-in-all, the Medieval ages will get "more play" with some of the units that were short-changed before.

I'm also playing a little "swapping" game with Chemistry and Military Science (swapping places on the tech tree)... the effect gameplay-wise will be incredibly minimal, since I'll be keeping units pretty much where they were anyways on the tech tree (chronologically speaking). I'm doing this swap more for "namesake makes sense" reasons then anything else... like I said, gameplay-wise, the effect will be minimal, it's just the names make more sense now for the techs (at least in my mind). Progression of key-techs and units will pretty much go like this in Wolfshanze Mod v2.85:

1) Gunpowder (Medieval tech): Bombards & Galleons (with Astronomy)
2) Muskets (Renaissance tech): Musketman, Frigate & Privateer + free Musketman for first to tech
3) Military Science: Cuirassier, SotL, Trafalgar Square Wonder
4) Chemistry: Grenadiers, Cannons

Also, the old Gunpowder quote by Nimoy is the new Muskets quote, and I have come-up with a new quote for Gunpowder, which I artificially made a fairly decent computer-generated voice for the reading (as I did for Air Superiority) so I could get a studio-quality sound-clip with zero background noise or strange inflection... doing the quotes live always leave something to be desired in sound-quality, so this was the best solution I could come-up with. I've tested them in game, and everything is working as it should.

I'm not really a fan of adding new techs to the tree, so when I do, I make sure they're done right and well thought-out. All this time, this is only the 2nd "new tech" I've added.

As of now, the Cog (which believe it or not caused a massive chain-reaction in my naval tree) is done, along-with the aforementioned changes above concerning the early gunpowder timeframe. The naval units from medieval times to galleons all received one or more changes in regards to how they fight one-another... I put a lot of thought into the units and their historical impacts, and (as usual), the Str-point system only allowed for so-much leeway, so some solutions are through bonuses (Cogs are Str-3, Caravels are now Str-4, and Galleons Str-5, Galleases [Str-4] stayed the same Strength, but now get bonuses against Cogs and Caravels... that sort of thing... it was a mess, but I finally figured out a happy solution that made historical sense... you guys probably won't even notice when you play).

I've got some other loose-ends to tie up... hope to have a new version out no-later then a week, hopefully in a couple of days or so... all depends on how much I put in before I get tired of working on it.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

that sounds great, Wulfmeister! (let me know if this gets annoying )

I really like the Chemistry <-> Military Science switch because Chemistry as we know it as a developed science didn't come until later, and it just seemed odd quite that early, such as with my Napoleonic scenario where I was asking myself, 'I know China had cannons (esp. with no bombard), but did they have CHEMISTRY?!' and I had to sacrifice history for game-acquisition-logic. Well, the Bombards help that, but also the idea that other things like Cuirassiers were tied to the Military Science was also an issue.

that is an amazing amount of work, btw! we fans are very lucky your hobby is making history fans happy and construction rather than pure entertainment

PS - you probably already know, but just in-case you don't, you can put fabric over the microphone to immensely cut down on the background noise / unavoidable air movement side-effect your voice

 

[tomppb]

Nice work wolf and I like the Cuirassier coming in first before grenadiers and cannon. This does a good job of representing 17th century cavalry which started using pistols etc before grenadiers (fusiliers) and cannon (effective field artillery) came into being in the early 18th century. Pikemen were fighting cavalry armed with firearms in the 17th century so Cuirassiers first makes a great deal of sense.

Really excited about the naval changes too.

Thanks for all yor hard work looking forward to 2.85. You personally saved Civ 4 for me. I was playing Colonization for a bit, but it just isnt as fun as your mod. Thanks

 

[tomppb]

Nice work wolf and I like the Cuirassier coming in first before grenadiers and cannon. This does a good job of representing 17th century cavalry which started using pistols etc before grenadiers (fusiliers) and cannon (effective field artillery) came into being in the early 18th century. Pikemen were fighting cavalry armed with firearms in the 17th century so Cuirassiers first makes a great deal of sense.

In fact the tech tree sort of now coincides with the centuries

gunpowder-15th century

musket- 16th century

military science -17th century

chemistry- 18th century (early 19th)

very neat and logical now.

Really excited about the naval changes too.

Thanks for all yor hard work looking forward to 2.85. You personally saved Civ 4 for me. I was playing Colonization for a bit, but it just isnt as fun as your mod. Thanks