[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Wolfshanze]

The problem is that people of the time period in question did not use the term.

I don't care if historians today call it that... when I have advanced in the game to the period of ca. 1900 or whatever, I don't call them "Pre-Dreadnoughts". I call them... what?

I'm pretty confident that people of the time period didn't call them "Early Battleships" either... nor did the people in WWI call them "Early Tanks", "Early Fighters" or "Early Bombers" either.

If you want to get technical, I'd say it's a safe bet Triremes weren't called "Triremes" at the time either. There's probably a considerable number of units in the database that aren't going by the name they used at the time, but rather the name we're using for them now.

Exactly where do you want to draw the line Wodan? You can't have your cake and eat it to...

Don't get upset with me that the term "Pre-Dreadnought" is the CORRECT term for naming of capital ships from 1890 to 1906. I didn't coin the term, nor invent it, nor write it in countless history books. That IS the correct term for those class of ships.

When it comes down to it, you're saying you don't want to use the word "Pre-Dreadnought" because that's not what they called them at the time... your suggestion to fix what you consider a problem is "Early Battleships"... gee... I can assure you, they didn't call them "Early Battleships" at the time either.

They are well-known in naval circles (and in history books) as "Pre-Dreadnoughts"... it just is what it is. If they were known as "Everlasting Devestating Gopstoppers" I would have called them that in the game too... I'm just going by the correct term... I don't see why you have a problem with it (and if your answer is true, then your suggested fix is just as wrong).

 

[Balderstrom]

I didn't read thru the whole thread, 52 pages. Sorry ;-)

Am curious what the impetus was behind changing the Grenadier?
Considering the Rifleman completely owns the Cavalry (which I find kinda ludicrous, but it is what it is).

 

[Wolfshanze]

Grenadiers have and always will be siege and fortification attack specialists... that's just how it is in history... Grenadiers have always specialized in taking-out fortifications and prepared defenses.

 

[Balderstrom]

Well kudos anyways. I'm still getting my groove without too much gameplay changes.
Just took another look here, after seeing your comment in the other thread about the jump in Naval STR's - made me go look at the upgrade tree in the PDF reference guide.
*chuckle* Nearly every ship upgrades to Destroyer.

I know you are attempting to be time-wise historically accurate, but have you considered at all in starting your Naval units a tech or two sooner? to give a better spread. From looking at the tech tree seems like they jump pretty quickly over the course of 3 or 4 techs.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I know you are attempting to be time-wise historically accurate, but have you considered at all in starting your Naval units a tech or two sooner? to give a better spread. From looking at the tech tree seems like they jump pretty quickly over the course of 3 or 4 techs.

Not really... they're actually spaced out fairly well... the only way to jump through the naval techs quickly is to ignore a lot of other important stuff I doubt other folks would ignore.

It's been play tested by myself and a lot of other folks... there's plenty of space on the time line between the naval epochs, and quite-often you may even find yourself "stuck" in one because your so concerned about advancing in a different tech line that doesn't advance you navally.

It's not hard at all to find yourself "stuck" with Ironclads or Pre-Dreadnoughts for an extended period of time... if you played through, you'd see this can and does often happen... it's certainly no shorter a timeframe between naval periods then others already present in the game... Cuirassiers, Musketmen, Grenadiers... all can be VERY short-lived by default. I'm actually very happy how well the new naval units integrate into the timeline... one also has to remember that the HUGE jump from Frigates to Destroyers and Battleships means that everyone would be running around with Frigates as their main warship for a much, MUCH longer time then they should... my mod not only eliminates that artificial extension, but it also correctly reflects the rapid development of naval warfare in the 19th century that did-indeed see three major naval ages come and go (Sail, Ironclads and Pre-Dreadnoughts were all top-notch naval technology at some point in the 19th century).

 

[Balderstrom]

Yeah, that Naval jump is pretty outlandish. Most of the things in Civ you can step back and get an inkling of where the gameDevs were coming from or respect that some things are needed for game balance. I just can't see it in this case.
Will prolly give this a go later, with a few tweaks. We clashed over Airships IIRC ;-)

 

[kmvoss]

I registered just to say I enjoy your MOD Wolf, and I'm half inclined to beleive the guy complaining about the dreadnaught name could be trolling! Somone so serious about historical details should know that is what they are called. Being ignorant of a subject and then asserting like that is just annoying. Anyways, your mod is easily my favorite on the forums (I've tried most all of them.) and encourage you to keep up the work.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I registered just to say I enjoy your MOD Wolf, and I'm half inclined to beleive the guy complaining about the dreadnaught name could be trolling! Somone so serious about historical details should know that is what they are called. Being ignorant of a subject and then asserting like that is just annoying. Anyways, your mod is easily my favorite on the forums (I've tried most all of them.) and encourage you to keep up the work.

Thanks kmvoss... it's nice to hear someone just plain enjoy the mod without saying this or that is wrong or a request to change this or that. Don't get me wrong... feedback is ALWAYS welcome, but it's nice to just hear "enjoyed the mod" from time to time!

For everybody else with 2-cents to add... keep it coming... I may not always agree with every suggestion, but I'll hear them out... (I'm already making some changes based on suggestions I heard today).

 

[Pendragon65]

HMS Dreadnought was the 1st all big gun Warship with standardised main arnament and central gunnery control and seperate secondry batteries, all previous warships had mixed calibre arnaments. When she was launched she made every previous design obselete overnight hence leading to a Naval arms race which ended in WW1. Thats why all ships before her launching are refered to as Pre-Dreadought. The term battleship comes from the RN term Line of Battle Ship meaning a ship that could hold her own in a line of battle. Battleship came in to general use between WW1 & WW2.

 

[Pendragon65]

Aw we all love the mod its great, Just recieved a good kicking from a huge Soviet style massed bomber formations i aintseen anything like it before, it just wiped out most of my infrastructure B*****ds it was bloody Ramses of all people.

 

[Rusty Edge]

I knew what the term was before I asked the question.

The problem is that people of the time period in question did not use the term.

I don't care if historians today call it that... when I have advanced in the game to the period of ca. 1900 or whatever, I don't call them "Pre-Dreadnoughts". I call them... what?

Wodan

Here goes-

Back in the mid-1970's I read a book called "Our War with Spain for Cuba's Freedom" published, remarkably, in 1898.

It included newslike accounts of actions, pictures and tables of the US Atlantic and Pacific Fleets, as well as Commodore Schley's Flyer Squadron ( a rapid-reaction force of cruisers )- basicly all of the active warships at the time. I don't think that the Spanish listings were as extensive.

You're right. They didn't call them pre-dreadnaught battleships( or pre-dreadnaughts for short).

They called them "Battleships" , or Our Latest Battleships, or Modern Battleships, because Teddy's Navy was state of the art.

 

[Wolfshanze]

They called them "Battleships" , or Our Latest Battleships, or Modern Battleships, because Teddy's Navy was state of the art.

That's the "DUH" factor kicking in folks... I don't need to look up a book to know that... and in WWI, here's another "DUH" factor... they didn't call them "Early Fighters", "Early Bombers" or "Early Tanks"... they called them Fighters, Bombers and Tanks, because they were state of the art then. The term "Infantry" has also been used through-out the ages as well. They weren't called "Riflemen" or what-not... they were still infantry. Ancient and Medieval forces had "Cavalry" too. Let's take it to the logical conclusion, since people just want to prolong this over and over and get ridiculous here.

So, for all the people that just want to cause problems, maybe I'll make a special mod for all of you...

I'll have six unit types... Infantry, Cavalry, Battleships, Fighters, Bombers & Tanks.

Infantry, Cavalry, Battleships, Fighters, Bombers & Tanks will actually represent completely different units throughout the years, but will all have the same name just to help cause utter confusion. You can have your cities producing "Infantry" or "Cavalry", but you'll never actually know what it's producing because you can't tell if it's muskets or rifles for instance... same with tanks, fighters, bombers, cavalry and battleships... the names are repeatedly used throughout history, and since everyone wants to use the name of the time, utter confusion will prevail.

I hope that settles it for everybody.

For the sane people, I will not be changing names. Crazy people, OCD people, and anal-retentives... stay-tuned, your special mod will come out eventually.

Otherwise, I think we can put a lid on this string of thought.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Please accept my apollogies. I agree with you .I know you know your facts .I was teasing Wodan.

 

[Balderstrom]

And before you get mathematics. You don't know numbers. So all numerical values in the game should be represented by ????
And before you get writing, ya dunno how to read, so really... all alphabetic characters in the game should be scrambled.
And if you play Egypt everything should be in Hieroglyphs instead.
I mean come on lets get realistic! ;-)

 

[The_Coyote]

i don´t want´to refresh the discussion, but would be pleased whe you can clarify it, Wolfshanze (i mean this serious, i´m a little )

Spoiler :

After following the discussion, i looked a little in the net (i believed that the term Battelship was used more common, not only for a sprecific period), but wiki says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleship), even if the term Battleships was coined around 1794, the term came in formal use in 1880 (ships now called pre-dreadnoughts). Now i´m confused, is wiki or my starting opinion wrong? (<- This is my question)
Going after wiki, it would make sense to call the ships Battleships, Dreadnought, Post - Dreadnoughts (= WWII - BBs), but this sounds strange for me, because if i had to name the classes i would follow your choice, pre-dreadnought, dreadnought, Battlehip. I would be confused to build a Battleship and see a Pre-Dreadnough, The term Battleship is too much bind to the late WWI and WWII ships in my head.

Thanks

 

[killmeplease]

Wolfshanze,
i have an another couple of ideas:
- land transport unit (automobile) for carriyng infantry to the battlefield with speed 2
- armoured train - very poverful unit (i.e. str 26) but tied to RR (is it possible to get it moving only to railroaded tiles?) and vulnerable to airplanes.

 

[mamba]

After following the discussion, i looked a little in the net (i believed that the term Battelship was used more common, not only for a sprecific period), but wiki says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleship), even if the term Battleships was coined around 1794, the term came in formal use in 1880 (ships now called pre-dreadnoughts). Now i´m confused, is wiki or my starting opinion wrong? (<- This is my question)

What Wiki says is : "The term (Battleship) came into formal use in the late 1880s to describe a type of ironclad warship, now referred to as pre-dreadnought battleships. In 1906 the launching of HMS Dreadnought heralded a revolution in battleship design, and battleships constructed subsequently were referred to as dreadnoughts."

"The term "dreadnought" gradually dropped from use after World War I, as the pre-dreadnoughts and the first generations of dreadnoughts were scrapped. However, all battleships built since then shared some of the characteristics of the dreadnought."

I do not see where this differs from your opinion (that the term Battleship was used for a longer period of time), unless you consider 1880 to 1990 one period only. Battleships were called Battleships in 1880, 1910 and 1940. Only in hindsight were different terms established (you couldn't very well call a 1890 Battleship a Pre-Dreadnought in 1890, as there was no Dreadnought yet).

Going after wiki, it would make sense to call the ships Battleships, Dreadnought, Post - Dreadnoughts (= WWII - BBs), but this sounds strange for me, because if i had to name the classes i would follow your choice, pre-dreadnought, dreadnought, Battlehip. I would be confused to build a Battleship and see a Pre-Dreadnough, The term Battleship is too much bind to the late WWI and WWII ships in my head.

Going with Wiki, it would make sense to call them Pre-Dreadnoughts (1880 Battleships), Dreadnoughts (1910 Battleship using a design similar to the HMS Dreadnought) and Battleships (1930 - 1945 Battleships, which also were the last Battleships built as by then carriers took over).

Calling them Battleship, Dreadnought and Post-Dreadnought does seem strange to you because a) when you use the term Battleship, you think of todays Battleships, not pre-WWI ones b) everyone calls them Pre-Dreadnought, Dreadnought and Battleship today (even though at their time they all were called Battleship)

 

[The_Coyote]

mamba, thanks for the reply, it´s seems my problem was described to short . With longer period i meant before the 1880s (say for example since 1800), that the term Battleship was used for the main battle ships of a nation, not a kind of name for a class. The question was, if it´s truth, that the term battleship came in formal use 1880 to describe the pre-dreadnought (battleships). I´m fully aware that the term was used longer [it could be discussed if the russian "Kirov" class can be seen as modern BB].

The rest of your post is exact the longer text version of my feeled problem , i´m absolut fine with the current look back naming (Pre-Dreadnought, Dreadnought, Battleship), exactly because of the reason you point (what i associate when i read Battleship), but when the class name battleship is true since 1880 you could also call the first ironclad type Battleship, followed by Dreadnought type Battleship and the Post- Dreadnougt type Battleship (if you don´t want a look back naming). Which would be impossible if the word Battleship had a more general meaning in the past.

To summerize: I only wanted to know from wolfshanze (one of the forums naval experts), if the term Battleship was used for a class of ships and the successors since 1880 (wiki) or more general for a longer period of time. (for example i had called a "ship of the line" and the first ironclads also battleship)

 

[Wolfshanze]

i don´t want´to refresh the discussion, but would be pleased whe you can clarify it, Wolfshanze (i mean this serious, i´m a little )

Spoiler :

After following the discussion, i looked a little in the net (i believed that the term Battelship was used more common, not only for a sprecific period), but wiki says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleship), even if the term Battleships was coined around 1794, the term came in formal use in 1880 (ships now called pre-dreadnoughts). Now i´m confused, is wiki or my starting opinion wrong? (<- This is my question)
Going after wiki, it would make sense to call the ships Battleships, Dreadnought, Post - Dreadnoughts (= WWII - BBs), but this sounds strange for me, because if i had to name the classes i would follow your choice, pre-dreadnought, dreadnought, Battlehip. I would be confused to build a Battleship and see a Pre-Dreadnough, The term Battleship is too much bind to the late WWI and WWII ships in my head.

Thanks

I don't mind clarifying things... though there's not much to be said after Mamba's post, which is quite accurate.

Simply put, in the 1890s, the capital ships of the time were referred to as "Battleships"... the commissioning of HMS Dreadnought in 1906 heralded the arrival of the "Dreadnoughts" which completely outclassed the preceding battleships... after WWI, the term "Battleship" came back in-style and all capital ships (including the surviving Dreadnoughts of WWI) were once-again referred to as battleships.

As is often the case in history, clarification of terms and major shifts in history (or ship design) can cause a renaming convention, and this certainly applies to the capital ships from 1890 to present.

The term "Battleship" stuck to the most recent class of heavy warships (those from WWII)... "Dreadnought" stuck with the capital ships built after 1906 and through WWI... "Pre-Dreadnought" is applied to the capital ships built before 1906 as far back as about 1890.

Pre-Dreadnought is the correct term that we call those ships in today's world... though, they were called "Battleships" at the time of their inception... of course the Dreadnoughts of WWI and the Battleships of WWII totally dwarfed the pre-dreadnought battleships of the late 19th century.

Oh, and one last point of clarification... if you want to get real technical the FULL proper name would be "Pre-Dreadnought Battleship"... but it's too long a name for Civ4 naming conventions if you ask me! Most folks just call them "Pre-Dreadnoughts" and leave it at that... but if you wanted to make them real fancy long names, it'd be "Pre-Dreadnought Battleship".

 

[The_Coyote]

thanks, but again i was missunderstood , most stuff since 1900 i know, but my question is still if the term battleship came first in formal use in the 1890s (pre-dreadnoughts) or was used before this date (lets say 1800, 1850, etc.) to name the capital warships.

With the rest i´m absolut fine (how to name, that the shorten name is used, etc.)