[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Wolfshanze]

Hey Wolfshanze, how come the Dreadnought doesn't obsolete? Shouldn't it go away whenever... what's it upgrade to, Battleships?... is available?

Wodan

Technically, all ships obsolete... You can't really turn a Trireme into a Caravel or an Ironclad into a Pre-Dreadnought Battleship...

However, I decided to do a little bit of a combo in my mod. I cut-slack to older ships (age of sail & ironclads), as they can upgrade to newer ships... while the big super-expensive ships of the modern age can't upgrade (Dreadnoughts and Battleships are both dead-end units, as neither can be upgraded to, or upgraded from). It's a little something in the mod to represent the enormous cost these ships required from nations... it was also quite intentional to show that even "out of date" ships had use... as many WWI dreadnoughts saw service in WWII alongside more modern battleships.

Essentially I didn't want to stifle ship building from the early ages, as economies are usually in flux and it's hard enough to build a fleet, so I allowed upgrades as per the normal civ... but in late-game (when you should have a strong economy), I decided to tighten the screws a bit, and force a little more realism (like using older ships in current wars... dreadnoughts in WWII, etc).

It's all intentional... everything has a purpose... there is a method to my madness.

 

[Xenomorph]

Another thing is that Dreadnoughts can use either coal or oil, but Battleships have to have either oil or uranium. If you're unlucky enough to not have any oil or uranium, you can still build Dreadnoughts.

 

[Ninja2]

So Wolf, do you have any updates planned in the immediate future?

 

[Wodan]

I guess that all makes sense. Thanks!

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

Another thing is that Dreadnoughts can use either coal or oil, but Battleships have to have either oil or uranium. If you're unlucky enough to not have any oil or uranium, you can still build Dreadnoughts.

If my memory serves me correctly, I think I dropped the "Uranium" fuel-source from the modern units. You need oil and only oil for WW2 era ships. The "Nuclear Age" ships do require Uranium though.

So Wolf, do you have any updates planned in the immediate future?

I have no "brilliant ideas" for gameplay changes or new unit classes... I do, however, reserve the right to do another update if enough new models are released.

Short of several new units being released, I doubt you'll see any new updates in the next few days at least!

 

[Wodan]

BTW, one side comment. I noticed that, with the new ship Blitz promo, subs are even less desirable than in the normal game, and they aren't any two-shakes there, either.

Basically, compared to the surface vessels available at the same time, subs really seem to lack much use at all.

Wodan

 

[von Krysiak]

I have to agree with Wodan on the subs - they are a bit useless right now except for missile carrier role. Not sure how to fix the issue but dont you think they should be receiving a bonus (maybe even up to 50%) to everything except destroyers to reflect thelack of anti-submarine weapons on other ships? That would force players to send escrot destroyers (thats what they are for right?) with any other ships convoys - at least one per stack.
The ONLY problem I see with that is teaching AI to do it otherwise it would be at a disadvantage...

 

[Wodan]

Maybe simply give subs a bonus strength when attacking. What this would mean in effect is akin to the Rifleman / Grenadier situation in the normal game. Grenadiers get a bonus when attacking Riflemen, but not if the Riflemen are attacking them.

So, the sub would get a bonus when attacking, but not if defending. At the same time, the opponent HAS to have a destroyer simply to see the sub to be able to attack it in the first place.

If you like that idea, I would probably suggest some fine tuning. For one thing, it's not just destroyers, but any ship which can "see subs". And, the sub attack bonus should except all such ships... a sub attacking a destroyer should be at normal strength.

If desired, the idea of "lack of anti-sub weapons" could also be addressed by giving the sub a second bonus vs "dreadnought era ships" plus all the previous eras. This bonus would work both on attack and on defense. A frigate should be really weak attacking a sub even if a destroyer is present and letting the frigate "see" the sub.

Just some ideas.

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

I'll have to put some thought on this... but yeah... something is probably needed for subs... I'll put my thinking-hat on.

 

[von Krysiak]

Thats exactly what I thought Wodan give them BIG attack only bonus but remember that only human player will know not to send ships without anti-sub escorts - AI will be at disadvantage here...
Although you are right they have to be tinkered with otherwise they are a bit useless...

 

[Wodan]

Thats exactly what I thought Wodan give them BIG attack only bonus but remember that only human player will know not to send ships without anti-sub escorts - AI will be at disadvantage here...
Although you are right they have to be tinkered with otherwise they are a bit useless...

Well the AI ends up with a lot of destroyers already anyway.

Wodan

 

[Wolfshanze]

A few thoughts/options...

Cost factor... they are cheaper then a lot of ships... maybe even make them cheaper?

An attack bonus... maybe on certain ships or all ships (then give a proper "defense" bonus to destroyers to counter-act it)... or an "all naval" attack bonus would be better then 10% vs this class and 10% vs this class and 10% vs this class... simply give the destroyers a sub defense bonus to counter the sub attack vs all naval units? Would have to figure out the right percentage.

The above might also be made a certain special promotion for subs (maybe automatically assigned like Blitz is for tanks). Dunno about that... just a thought.

Maybe an attack bonus (pretty large) vs only certain types of "big ships"... cruisers, battleships and carriers maybe?

Either that, or an attack bonus (huge) against transports... dunno.

All just thoughts bouncing around.

 

[Ninja2]

Maybe just a penalty to the "big" surface ships?

 

[Tlalynet]

I use them to soften up opponents right now (50% Evade plus Evade promos gives them 80% doesent it) Sub attack, retreat, and then the real attack. I wouldnt mind if Subs got 70% Base retreat so promoted it got up to 100%, that way you could attack with them safely, but on defence they would just die.
This way if its say Battleship vs Battleship you send a sub in to hit and retreat and youre opponent only has a str of say 32.5 left so you're combat odds for the battleship is very good.

 

[Wodan]

It's well documented that submarines cost more than surface ships, Wolfshanze. Unless you want to get away from your realism kick, I'd say making them cheaper is not a good option.

Wodan

 

[arstal]

A few thoughts/options...

Cost factor... they are cheaper then a lot of ships... maybe even make them cheaper?

An attack bonus... maybe on certain ships or all ships (then give a proper "defense" bonus to destroyers to counter-act it)... or an "all naval" attack bonus would be better then 10% vs this class and 10% vs this class and 10% vs this class... simply give the destroyers a sub defense bonus to counter the sub attack vs all naval units? Would have to figure out the right percentage.

The above might also be made a certain special promotion for subs (maybe automatically assigned like Blitz is for tanks). Dunno about that... just a thought.

Maybe an attack bonus (pretty large) vs only certain types of "big ships"... cruisers, battleships and carriers maybe?

Either that, or an attack bonus (huge) against transports... dunno.

All just thoughts bouncing around.

Wouldn't just raising the base strength, then giving destroyers a bonus have the same effect?

 

[Xenomorph]

I'll have to put some thought on this... but yeah... something is probably needed for subs... I'll put my thinking-hat on.

It would be nice if something like aircraft's interception chance could be implemented for subs. When attacking a stack, they could first go for the cargo vessels. Destroyer-type ships could have a chance of intercepting them. This would help reinforce the sub's historical role as a commerce raider.

 

[arstal]

Well, the aiming for certain ship types is doable, since the ballista elephant works that way, but destroyers would have to be able to intercept, and I don't know if that's doable. Too bad there isn't a way to make it a percentage chance, which lowers with each destroyer in the stack.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Wouldn't just raising the base strength, then giving destroyers a bonus have the same effect?

No... because raising the base strength would help on attack AND on defense.

I kinda like the thought about withdrawal though... high strength or not, giving the sub a good withdrawal rating would make them more surviveable then traditional surface ships... this might be a good idea to implement.

 

[arstal]

How high should withdrawal be, 50%, 60%. I'd say you should only have a 10-20% chance of killing a sub. Don't know actual WWI/II stats on this though, and it should require promotions.