BTS Roleplaying Challenge: Gandhi

[slobberinbear]

BTS Roleplaying Challenge: Gandhi

After a hiatus, I am back and ready to attempt another RP challenge. After my first successful attempt at this sort of thing with Sitting Bull, and an aborted effort with Tokugawa, I am ready once more.

But before I begin, I again must bow down now and acknowledge the master of the ALC genre, and general Civilization bon vivant, Sisiutil. He is my Civ hero.

The idea of the Roleplaying Challenge is to provide a challenge not neccessarily by raising the difficulty level, but by giving myself a handicap by “roleplaying” the civilization in question. At the start I will identify the roleplaying particulars. I am open to suggestions on other handicaps. For additional roleplaying flavor, I will add a short narrative at the beginning of each round.

I anticipate posting a round every day or two, mainly because I have a short attention span and can't stand waiting. Like the ALC games, I ask for your comments and feedback, and I’ll need it, particularly with the rules I've set for myself.

For this game, I have selected India. My leader is Gandhi, who is Philosophical and Spiritual. The unique unit is the Fast Worker, a worker with a movement speed of 3. The unique building is the Mausoleum, a Jail replacement that grants +2 happiness. We begin the game with Mining and Mysticism.

My aim is to play up Gandhi’s peaceful nature.

The rules:

· No slavery. Beyond that, we must always use the most “advanced” government, legal and labor civics available to us.
· We can’t pasture cows or trade for other people's cows. They’re sacred. We can build other improvements on cow tiles, however.
· We can never declare war on someone, though we can solicit others to fight for us or take the fight to a foe if we are declared upon.
· Adoption of the Pacifism civic when available. When Free Religion is available, we may select it if we choose.
· We will not attempt a Conquest or Domination victory.

The inability to declare war and ‘no slavery’ rules are, by far, the most limiting. They will take away meaningful strategic options during the game. I am a Monarch player on a good day, so I’m lowering the difficulty to Prince.

This game’s settings: Prince difficulty, hemispheres map, standard size and settings, epic speed, ancient start.

My short-term goals, in no particular order:

· Rapid expansion, since I can’t expand through war
· Founding and spreading an early religion for diplomatic and money-making purposes. I would prefer if we founded Hinduism, for RP reasons.
· Build at least one Great Prophet-generating wonder, to build the holy shrine.
· Get out a small army of Fast Workers to power my expansion through improvements and chopping

The starting screenshots ..

Gandhi surveyed the river valley and nodded silently. It would do. The long years of wandering in the wilderness, fearful of animals and men alike, were over. He uttered a prayer and began to meditate on the settlement's optimal location ...

Comments on the start to follow ...

 

[slobberinbear]

Where to Settle

I moved the warrior to uncover the land to the southwest of the settler, but nothing major was found. It appears that a coastline is close by, westward. We are in the northern hemisphere, just above the jungle belt, which seems fitting.

My initial reaction is to settle in place on the floodplain. The game put the settler there for a reason, and the riverside plains tile 1S may hold a key hidden resource that I'd like to improve. There are also six tiles in the BFC I can't presently see, and there may be goodies in there, too. If there is no hidden resource on the riverside plains, though, I've essentially wasted the floodplain by settling on it.

On the other hand, settling 1S on the plains tile would allow us to work the floodplain and still get the rice and both silk tiles in the BFC. The tiles 'lost' by moving appear to be offset by the new ones gained based on what I can presently see. Of course, if I settle 1S, I may end up parked on a hidden resource, but them's the breaks.

My choices are (1) settle in place (2) settle 1S or (3) expore with the settler for a turn or two. Option (3) is the least attractive for me, as I am considering going for Polytheism right out of the gate and don't want to miss it to the AI.

In any event, getting the rice farmed is going to be a priority, and it looks like we have plenty of wood for chopping out workers and settlers and maybe a wonder or two.

Early Tech Order

I am thinking of teching:

1. Polytheism
2. Mining
3. Bronze Working

Early Build Issues

Because I also need to REX fairly quickly, I'm considering building a Fast Worker first, since we start with Agriculture and there are at least two immediately farmable tiles. Even after the farms are finished, Mining will be available quickly for use on the unforested hills about. So our Fast Worker will never be sitting around.

Wonders

Lastly, I have enough wood to chop out the Oracle, and its enabling tech, Priesthood, is just a quick jump from Polytheism. What free tech should I shoot for? Early Monarchy, to raise the happy caps? Metal Casting to enable Colossus? Currency, to get a leg up on commerce? Aesthetics, to get to Literacy and the Great Libarary? I need to make plans so that I have all the prerequisite techs before I finish the Oracle.

I'm planning on skipping Stonehenge, since I'm gunning for an early religion.

If I have stone near, I would also consider the Great Wall, which would really let me downplay the military techs, which seems very much like a Gandhi decision.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Settle in place, Hinduism will make the RPC cooler and the game is usually right with where it puts the settler. I'm guessing iron or copper on that grassland hill near the rice.

And try for The Great Wall for sure, even without stone it is really pretty cheap (150 hammers).

 

[madscientist]

Welcome back to the RPCs. I think you created an RPC monster in myself, as I have gotten about 16 or 17 done since the first Mighty Khan. I applaud you in yours, as you really try to be fairly historically accurate as opposed to myself who usually has these real leaders rolling over in their graves!

Since both Hinduism and Buddhism origionated in ancient India I think both are fair game at the start. You ar eat Prince level and therefore have a great show at getting either. You also have at least 2 tiles that will produce 1 commerce. I say work the rice first, then the luxury resource second. First build is a warrior to pop the borders, then a worker.

After the early religion I would hit agriculture, then BW. The mahatma starts with mining already, right?? After BW, tech masonry and try and chop out the GW.

Best of luck, glad to see you back!

 

[Groogaroo]

Yay! I have to say I loved the Native American RPC you ran , I hope we get some little bits of story written in with Gandhi (I almost cried when black feather died! ). I like the cows varient very appropriate.

I almost always settle in place these days, I always get punished by the RNG gods when moving the settler. Although moving 1 south does looks very tempting.

I noticed you didn't list Code of Laws as an option for the oracle. It might be handy if you plan to expand as much as possible getting early courthouses.

Good luck with the game , I tend to be a peaceful player so It'll be interesting to see how you play out the start. I always struggle between expanding peacefully and quickly and building the wonders I want.

 

[Gooblah]

Don't go for Environmentalism as Gandhi's Econ Civic. Head for Free Market instead. Gandhi was all for going capitalist as soon as India was independent, but Nehru (the first PM) headed for Socialism, since India lacked the infrastructure to support an American-style economy.

The whole Cows thing strikes me as odd (being Hindu), but whatever, have you fun!

I think settling 1S is the way to go. Hopefully there's a (somewhat) high commerce tile nearby, but if there isn't, then Hinduism is less of a bet. If you're lucky, Isabella or Justinian aren't in the game.

 

[Gliese 581]

A suggestion: If there's a chance to opt for peace via an event, Gandhi must take it.

One more thing: Gandhi was against the caste system in India, but no slavery no caste system might be to harsh.

Edit: And don't settle in place! 1S then settle, then pop hut. You will gain 2 river tiles and don't waste the flood plains, also the 3 tiles to the north and east you can't see that you'll lose looks like plains country, the western tile is a plains forest.

Edit#2: Also at least in BTS, Gandhi starts with Mysticism and Mining, so go Fast Worker and BW, then agriculture. Or Polytheism first of all if you want an early religion.

 

[slobberinbear]

Don't go for Environmentalism as Gandhi's Econ Civic. Head for Free Market instead. Gandhi was all for going capitalist as soon as India was independent, but Nehru (the first PM) headed for Socialism, since India lacked the infrastructure to support an American-style economy.

The whole Cows thing strikes me as odd (being Hindu), but whatever, have you fun!

I think settling 1S is the way to go. Hopefully there's a (somewhat) high commerce tile nearby, but if there isn't, then Hinduism is less of a bet. If you're lucky, Isabella or Justinian aren't in the game.

Here's hoping I don't offend, Gooblah. I checked out 'sacred cow' on wikipedia and it indicates that the sanctity of the bovine is a Hindu tradition, though not universally adhered to. I just thought it would be fun for the game, but I'm open to suggestions.

Thanks for the heads-up on Gandhi's capitalistic predilections. My understanding is that the Indians are a very entrepreneurial people and have embraced the small business mentality. So this seems to be a good fit. Free Market > State Property!

 

[Diamondeye]

I don't think Gandhi would like to run a police state, either,

 

[slobberinbear]

I don't think Gandhi would like to run a police state, either,

Agreed. So to add to our list of verboten civics, Slavery, Police State, and State Property are out. I am also making the decision to exclude Vassalage and Theocracy, as they are warmonger civics and not terribly fitting with Gandhi, either. This leaves us with:

Government: any but Police State. Once we have either Representation or Universal Suffrage enabled, we must choose one of these. This is a slight change from the original post.
Legal: any but Vassalage, and we must choose the most advanced form available
Labor: any but Slavery, and we must choose the most advanced form available. Yes, this means we'll likely be running Caste System for some time, at least until Democracy.
Economic: any but State Property, and we will try to run Free Market as much as possible.
Religious: any but Theocracy, and once Paciifism is enabled, we can only choose it or Free Religion.

 

[pigswill]

Maybe settle 1SW on the plains spice. Its worth keeping the floodplains and you don't want to risk settling on an undiscovered resource.

 

[slobberinbear]

Round 1: 4000 B.C. to 2525 B.C. (Part One)

Gandhi arose from his prayer mat near his small shrine to Vishnu, leaving the lamp lit and the small offering of food. Walking to his outer chambers, he spoke softly to the waiting Manisha, his young third cousin and trusted aide. He had an odd look on his face, and she curiously waited on his explanation.

“Vishnu’s voice came to me, as if speaking here before us. ‘Trust in your karma,’ he said. So here we will settle. Here all Indians of every caste will prosper,” he said. He handed her a rolled-up scroll. “Send this to Suresh in the south.”

Manisha hoped Gandhi did not notice the flash of fear in her eyes, and left immediately to inform the people of their leader’s decision.

--

Heeding Gandhi’s karmic vision, we settled in place. And wouldn’t you know what was in our BFC? Sacred cows! Vishnu be praised! Of course, we can’t pasture them, but a cottaged grassland cow tile is eventually worth 3F, 5C.

Delhi sets up to be a production powerhouse, with four plains hills and one grassland hill. Hello, Ironworks! That means a lot of farms and not much commerce, other than the silk and the cottaged cow tile.

To the east is more coastline. We appear to be on a peninsula, or perhaps just a narrow part of the continent.

--

Gandhi knew that the people would need the Gods. He needed the Gods. Life without faith was chaos, and his people looked to Gandhi to save them from the chaos of the wild.

“Gather the priests and people of faith, Manisha. Let us hold a holy conclave and discern the true nature of the Godhead, so that we may prosper.”

--

I elected to research Polytheism. Not only does it obviously mesh with Gandhi’s beliefs, it leads to other wonder-friendly and religious techs. I have also found that you can get it before the AI at Prince level if you research it straightaway and work the commerce tiles at your disposal.

--

Suresh opened the scroll from Gandhi and smiled. His uncle’s note was as pithy as ever.

“Scout the land. If you are eaten by a tiger, return in your next life as an ox.”

Suresh warily crept through the forest, staff in one hand, and a small sachet with Manisha’s scented herbs in the other … and as he walked through the valleys and glades of the south, he thought of their first meeting, when she stumbled upon him at the riverbank, running the wooden comb through his long dark hair …

--

His promised bride was distant. Chandan was beside himself.

“Always you look to the south, Manisha. You should look to me, your future husband!” he fumed.

She turned and regarded him. Slight of build and possessed of a slightly crooked nose, Chandan was not the epitome of masculinity. Still, there was no denying his cleverness and skill in trade. He was worthy of his caste of traders, and the Asura, his father’s purchase of Manisha for his son, was approved by all. All except, of course, the bride to be …

Chandan knew she did not love him. But love could be made.

“I am more than you see. I have earned every rupee in my pocket. And I will earn you!” And with that, he strode out of Delhi with little more than a bulky pack and stone hatchet.

His parents were flabbergasted and railed at her for her insolence. And in the evenings that followed, her southward gaze did drift now and then to the north and east, and she did wonder about the fate of her future bridegroom.

I built a warrior, Chandan, to allow Delhi to grow a little. My hope is that at size two, the extra commerce from working a silk tile will give me the extra edge to beat the AI to Polytheism.

Meanwhile, Suresh explored south, towards the jungles …

--

Finding a tribal village, he entered it cautiously. The elder of the village gave him a map, but not of land … of water … He looked at the map dubiously, made a show of his appreciation, then burned it at his next campsite.

--

Delhi’s border popped and the nearest tribal village offered a tribute in gold to the fledgling Indian nation.

Suresh eventually met our first neighbor, too.

--

He spied a small boat in the channel between the continent and the distant island. Apparently, they had seen him too. He made camp and waited for their arrival.

The Incans were dressed colorfully and appeared as surprised to meet Suresh as he was them. Gifts of minor import were exchanged, and on behalf of their leaders, peace was made.

"Stay on your side of this channel, Indian, and we'll stay on ours!" they said as they paddled away.

Suresh would hold them to that bargain.

--

From a REX standpoint, this turned out to be quite handy, as Huayna is separated from our southern frontier by water as you'll see later.

When Delhi hit size two, I had the citizen start working the plains river silk tile, to get a little extra commerce and finish the warrior quicker. Unfortunately, the extra commerce from that tile did not reduce Polytheism’s remaining research time. I would have to ride it out.

A turn or two later, another neighbor appeared, bearing Greek tidings from some unknown northern clime …

Manisha entered Gandhi's simple dwelling and bowed. "A foreigner is here with parley, Mahatma." He looked up from his writing and smiled.

"Then let us meet him. Hand me my clean robe, my dear."

The foreigner, though an explorer, was stout of build and proud of demeanor and beat his chest in an exhultant greeting. Gandhi calmly nodded at him and offered blessings upon his journeys.

"My master, Pericles, dwells far to the northeast on the shores of the icy oceans. He is a warrior and a ... er ... philosopher, like yourself."

A wry smile came to Gandhi's face. "Then perhaps your master and I shall discourse about the nature of humanity and War, my friend. Come, enjoy a repast with us and tell us of your people."

The meal was a simple, unhurried affair that lasted for hours. At length, the Greek relaxed a bit and promised to send tidings of peace to Pericles, in the city of Athens.

As the explorer left, Manisha found Gandhi in thought. "You are uneasy?" she asked.

"The idea of peace is itself threatening to men of war. We shall see."

--

I was convinced that Perry’s scout would grab the eastern tribal village immediately -- the one I'd left for later. Ah well – the price of exploring towards the equator, I suppose. Unexpectedly, however, his scout turned northwards and was never seen again. Let us hope a tiger ate him.

Two bits of good news followed. First, Gandhi’s prayers were answered: we got to Polytheism first!

I immediately converted to Hinduism and started researching Agriculture and building a fast worker.

Our second warrior, Chandan, made a beeline for the tribal hut … and again, the grateful tribe paid us tribute. Word of Gandhi’s spiritual, peaceful ways was spreading!

Suresh and Chandan continued to explore, one up the western coastline, the other up the eastern. Whereupon they each came face to face, on the same turn, with a ferocious tiger … and what would each man get? The lady, or the tiger?

Result? Two dead tigers. Don’t mess with the children of Vishnu, baby.

Our next tech was then completed ...

Which was good, as our first Fast Worker was nearing completion and our Rice needed farming. I decided to research Bronze Working next, as we would need wood-chopping soon and it wouldn’t hurt to locate the nearby bronze, if for no other reason than to deny it to Perry. I don’t want Phalanxes on my doorstep in the B.C. if I can help it.

In other good news, Suresh located stone to Delhi’s northwest.

And then, more dangerous beasts awaited our intrepid warrior ...

The animals of the wild came at him, and he grew more skilled at detecting their spoor and avoiding them. As he traveled northward, he found the signs of a larger creature. And then, he saw it.

Across the narrow valley, upwind and ignorant of Suresh, was a vicious Himalayan mountain bear. He waited until it passed, having no desire to feel its claws. At length the beast moved on, and the Sikh let out a long breath, then continued along the coast.

A few hours journey later, he heard an odd noise behind him. He must have gotten himself upwind of the bear, for he turned to see it charging! Suresh interposed a large pine tree betwixt he and the creature, and braced himself for the onslaught … he felt his leg being nearly torn from its socket as he brought his staff down upon the giant skull, knocking the beast senseless.

--

Though reduced to .1 health (!), Suresh lived to tell the tale, though he had a slight limp for the rest of his days.

 

[Gooblah]

not offensive at all, don't worry. I find the rule amusing in its own way to be honest, so please carry on. and great round, btw.

 

[slobberinbear]

Round 1: 4000 B.C. to 2525 B.C., part two

Chandan discovered the Greek lands to our northeast ...

Breathing heavily, Chandan crested the hill and saw signs of civilization in the distance. The Greek homeland.

It had been three weeks since his fateful decision to leave his home, family, and bride-to-be. He would not turn back, though. Though his feet were sore and his clothes getting looser by the day, he knew he must persevere. Taking careful note of the surroundings, and noting the local resources for future trade, he pushed to the southeast, along the coastline just outside of Greek lands.

--

Back in Delhi, the Fast Worker finished the rice farm but Bronze Working isn’t done yet, so I sent the worker to mine a plains hill.

Instead of building a settler or worker right away, I decided to build another warrior for fogbusting and garrison purposes, and altered my citizens’ tiles so that the warrior would finish right after Delhi hit size four, at which point we will chop out our settler. I figured working the farmed rice, the mined plains hill, and the two silk tiles would be worth the short wait.

The good news: we next learned bronze working. The bad news? There is a big copper deposit right next to Athens … and our only accessible copper appears to be adjacent to the north pole.

Of course, I rejected the option to adopt Slavery, per our RP rules.

I started researching the wheel, as we’d need it to drive roads wherever India settles next … but I could certainly use Fishing, Masonry, and Animal Husbandry very soon too – for the sheep, mind you! Never the cows!

It was time for the Fast Worker to get chopping. I can see the power of this UU already .. move into the forest, and chop on the same turn. Good stuff. It’s one of those subtle bonuses that seems insignificant until you add it up over all of the turns of the game. I will say, though, that its power is lessened in an Epic speed game, since the worker times are lengthened. Saving one turn before chopping for 5 turns on Epic speed is not as powerful as saving one turn before chopping for 3 turns on Normal speed. But I'll take what I can get.

In any event, Delhi hit size four, the fourth warrior finished, and it was time to get working on a settler. Here’s the city screen. Not bad at this stage in the game – 15 turns to a settler, and still getting some commerce. With two wood chops, I should get this down to 8-9 turns.

We then got our next tech:

Once the Wheel finished, I had a major decision to make: Masonry to go for the Great Wall, or Animal Husbandry to try to hook up horses for defense? Heeding the advice of madscientist and Nintendo, I went for Masonry, which pretty much dictated that city #2 will be to the northwest, in one of the tiles adjacent to the stone so we can work it immediately.

After two wood chops, Gandhi directed the Fast Worker to drive a road towards the stone deposit to the northwest, where Suresh was waiting on a nearby hill as a lookout. Warrior #3, Duleep, was parked on the resource-rich isthmus to Delhi’s northeast, the likely location of city #3.

Chandan, meanwhile, had slipped around Perry’s borders, revealing a fairly decent settlement area for the Greeks – which was just as well, since I was planning on cutting him off from the India area. Better to give him some space to expand into. He's what I have found of Pericle's southern frontier:

Our first settler finished and I started on a second Fast Worker. And here I stopped, so that we could discuss cities, dot maps, grand strategy, and the like.

Here are some dotmappable images of the Indian subcontinent:

Along with my attempt at a dotmap of the region:

If I went with this, I should settle brown first to get the stone, then white to cut off Perry. My map (espeically the northern one) is mosty OCP-friendly, but if you have a suggestion that involves a lot of overlap, I’m all ears.

Other Things to Talk About:

What to Build: Great Wall, then a bunch of settlers? Should I go for the Pyramids since I have stone?

Research Priorities: Monotheism + Writing to spread Hinduism with open borders? Animal Husbandry to get the sheep online in the white city and uncover horses? Fishing + Sailing for black city’s seafood?

Neighbors: Well I got lucky. Nobody is super-close, and neither are raging maniacs. Which leads me to – what to do with the Great Spy assuming we build the Great Wall? Settle for an even EP distribution over Huayna and Perry and some bonus beakers, or go all-out for infiltration against Perry?

EDIT Happy Caps We're at Prince difficulty (5). Adding Hinduism, a Temple, Silk, Wine, and Furs gets us to size 10, 11 in Delhi ... and that's before adding civics or resource trades (likely with Huayna). I would think that size 14 cities would be very feasible in the early medieval period.

Economy Lacking a ton of river tiles, cottaging everything looks less attractive here than on other maps. That suggests at least a partial SE economy, which is also nicely-suited for RP purposes, as we'll be running caste system anyway for a long part of the game. Unfortunately, I don't see a plethora of high-food tiles other than our sacred cows and the odd bit of seafood. It will likely end up a hybrid supplemented with a holy shrine to power our economy.

Speaking of which, I need to generate a great prophet fairly soon. Other than building a temple and running priest specialists and/or building the Oracle, any ideas on getting a prophet?

Your thoughts?

 

[NintendoTogepi]

I'd beeline Writing so as to spread the good word of Hinduism!

Also, try and get the Pyramids as well. They're unbelievably useful.

 

[Groogaroo]

Blocking off perry is the first priority, so black dot first, its a pretty sweet spot for a city too, so also fishing would be a priority tech to get that city up and running.

Seems a crime not to have a stab at the pyramids with stone in your backyard. I don't generally build the greatwall in my games but I can see in this situation it could be quite handy, there's quite alot of open space for barbs to pop up in.

Generally, looking at the map you have a nice amount of space to expand into peacefully without having to rush and land grab, nice!

 

[thefais]

Always an entertaining read! Glad to see another challenge with which to waste time at work!

There are a lot of cows on this continent. Shame you can't use them.

Go for the GW first, then spam settlers + protectors to rex your continent. Settle your Great Spy, as settled spies are incredible in the long run - especially once you have a couple then add Scotland Yard.

Monotheism + Writing is a solid call, especially if you get your wall up and won't have to worry about Barbs.

 

[slobberinbear]

Sounds good. Settle the stone city while teching monotheism, priesthood (needed for writing and possible shot at Oracle), and writing, build Great Wall, then REX and spread Hinduism. I should probably also gun for Alphabet so as to trade for backfill techs.

But I need some help on placement of the the stone city. Ideally, it would be next to the stone (so I could work it immediately), adjacent to the lake, and be in range of the cows (which are still a +1 food resource, even unimproved). Unfortunately, I can't make that happen, and the desert and mountain tiles are rather inconveniently located.

Maybe the best move is to settle (gasp) ON the stone, which is already next to the lake. That also gives us all five grasslands and a couple of hills to work so the city isn't a total waste, and as a bonus gives us the stone immediately once the road is hooked up. That's giving me a 8 (?) turn head start on the Great Wall right there. I just hate settling on resources, but it may be the best option.

Doing that would then likely push the magenta city 1W, which is not a huge problem. Hmm ... I'm going to work on a new dotmap ... and here's a version with more overlap, but it has virtually no unworked tiles (though the orange and teal cities are very low priority ... )

Although the brown and mustard yellow dots are very close, their overlap is entirely desert tiles ... which means that, for all practical purposes, there is no overlap at all.

 

[madscientist]

As the Pacifist Gandhi I would think you should avoid with the Barbs too. To "protect" them from yourself, getting the Great Wall is a top priority. There's nothing good arround that Stone, so settle on top of it, run farms there and a few token specialists. Built a road and instant Stone access.

 

[thefais]

I would move Magenta 1S, in order to not have useless coast tiles in its fat cross, this also gets rid of the (mostly) useless tundra tile as well in exchange for a desert. It loses the fresh water health bonus, but this is offset by being able to build a harbor for 2 health and also has better trade routes.

I was going to mention something about using white as a canal city in order to utilize that excellent isthmus, but I remembered BTS made forts useful (in something other than OCC) in making canals. So fort up that desert tile, so ships made in black and yellow can connect with the rest of your fleet!