BTS Roleplaying Challenge: Sitting Bull

[slobberinbear]

I'm not sure if i am remembering correctly, but didnt the native americans remove forests for farmland? they just didnt have a large enough population to really devastate the forest. and weren't some tribes nomadic for a reason? i.e. they used up the area's resources and had to move? i'm not sure if i'm making this up or am confused with another group

This is one of the problems of translating a real, diverse group of people into one "generic" culture in the game. Some tribes were hunter/gatherers on the move. Others had permanent or semi-permanent settlements. We are generalizing for the purposes of the game. It would be as if the game had a generic "European" civ that had some of the flavor of the various countries.

So yeah, it is a little confusing. We aren't trying for reality or historical accuracy here -- we're just trying to play a game of BTS according to an archetype to add a little challenge.

 

[slobberinbear]

Ewe friend? That's a little kinky even for me and I live in New Zealand.

On further reflection, you're right. It's a bad name. I am open to suggestions.

Silent Ewe? Ewe Watcher?

 

[Bast]

Ok now we're talking. This looks great and I'll follow it.

Can you do Victoria soon? Rule, Britannia, Britannia rules the waves... you get the idea.

 

[slobberinbear]

Ok now we're talking. This looks great and I'll follow it.

Can you do Victoria soon? Rule, Britannia, Britannia rules the waves... you get the idea.

Let me get through this one. First, I'm not as skilled a player as Sisiutil. Second, I claim no ownership to this concept, and anyone who wants to make a RP Challenge game should feel free to do so.

Below is my attempt at Civ math/micromanagement. You have been warned.

Spoiler :

I am a little panicked about getting Stonehenge out. The short version is that I'm trying to figure out the best path to finish the Wheel, Mysticism, and Masonry while getting my worker to complete, pasture the pigs, and quarry the stone. My initial thought was:

1. work 2 x 2F/1H tiles to finish Worker. Finish warrior that remains in queue.
2. send worker to pasture/road the pigs, then road the stone. When pigs are done, work pigs (5F/1H) and 3H plains hills forest.
3. start building another warrior until Mysticism finishes, then switch to Stonehenge.
4. when city hits size 3, add lake tile (2F/2C) to speed research of Masonry
5. Worker builds road to new city location until Masonry finishes, then works on quarry

By my calculations, by the time I'm able to hook up the stone, it will only save me 5 turns or so.

Am I better off working the lake tile before the 3H tile? If I do, I can get Masonry three turns earlier (adding the lake tile gives us +2 commerce, which at a 100% research slider means a 22% increase in research rate from where we are now), which means I can get three more turns of double-speed Stonehenge production, and, incidentally, reach size 3 about 5 turns faster than by working the 3H tile. The downside is that the worker completes in 2 more turns (which is not huge, since we can choose not to road the pigs), and that while we can start Stonehenge faster, we won't really be making much progress on it until we hit size 3 and then start working a 3H tile. Essentially, we lose 3 hammers x the number of turns needed to grow to size 3, but do we get them back later by having the stone hooked up sooner?

Once the stone is worked, we should be at size four and have the pigs (5F/1H), lake (2F/2C), the stone (1F/4H), and a plains/forest hill (3H), for 8 hammers. Doubled for the stone wonder bonus, that's 16 hammers/turn. Without the stone hookup, we're at 7 hammers. So getting the stone 3 turns faster means a 27 hammer improvement ((16-7)*3). It is also necessarily true that we will be at size 4 later if we work the 3H tile before the lake tile, which adds more credence to working the lake tile now.

So my tentative answer (I'm a freaking Anthro major here, work with me ) is that if we can grow to size 3 at least 9 turns faster by working the lake instead of the 3H tile, we offset the loss of hammers by getting the stone faster and, incidentally improve our overall research rate.

Am I thinking straight here? My assumption has been that we need to grow Cawak to the happy cap to improve production, since we're not chopping or whipping, and that we should work our two improvable tiles (pigs and stone) ASAP. Also, since our only source of decent commerce at the moment is the lake tile, it needs to be worked, at least until our cottage spam tribal housing area/gold mine to the southwest is online.

I am normally not this much of a micromanager, but since we don't have the chop/whip crutch to fall back on, every turn counts.

 

[KMadCandy]

We aren't trying for reality or historical accuracy here -- we're just trying to play a game of BTS according to an archetype to add a little challenge.

we're trying to do it in a way that you have fun, so that you want to do it again! cuz i like your style

My assumption has been that we need to grow Cawak to the happy cap to improve production, since we're not chopping or whipping, and that we should work our two improvable tiles (pigs and stone) ASAP.

I am normally not this much of a micromanager, but since we don't have the chop/whip crutch to fall back on, every turn counts.

standard KMad "indecisive not leading to a conclusion post"...

the usual logic is growing to happy cap so that you have bodies to work on stuff, and that makes sense. but part of the reason you usually want to be at happy cap is that "bodies to work" includes the option of people to whip away, turning food into hammers. but once we're at happy cap, we have to find a way to keep those people happy, since they'll always live with us. so we have to adjust our thinking, but i'm not sure exactly how we need to adjust it.

"since we can choose not to road the pigs"

my impression is that roading while we're on a tile that we don't need the connection to the resource yet (such as pigs if we're not at health cap, to save walking back to it later) isn't all that crucial here. our workers might not end up as busy as over-worked usual workers, since they won't have lumberjack duties. i imagine they'll have time to get a bit of exercise? but i haven't done any math about it, that's just what popped into my head.

oh-so-not-helpfully yours, the giggly indecisive one

 

[slobberinbear]

we're trying to do it in a way that you have fun, so that you want to do it again! cuz i like your style

Gosh. Thanks. I will do my best!

By the way, if you know how to post a screenshot like Sisiutil does, let me know. I only seem to be able to post the thumbnails, which are fine with me but may be irritating to others.

"since we can choose not to road the pigs"

my impression is that roading while we're on a tile that we don't need the connection to the resource yet (such as pigs if we're not at health cap, to save walking back to it later) isn't all that crucial here. our workers might not end up as busy as over-worked usual workers, since they won't have lumberjack duties. i imagine they'll have time to get a bit of exercise? but i haven't done any math about it, that's just what popped into my head.

I imagine the lack of chopping (and then farming/cottaging after that) will mean a lot fewer workers. After the pigs/stone are worked, Cawak is essentially "done" from a worker standpoint unless/until the "mystery tile" reveals copper or iron.

I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up with two workers for every three cities, something in that range.

 

[Percy]

By the way, if you know how to post a screenshot like Sisiutil does, let me know. I only seem to be able to post the thumbnails, which are fine with me but may be irritating to others.

It would seem you're using the tags "ATTACH". Try using the tag "IMG" (as in img="http://your.image"), and closing it too.

 

[KMadCandy]

i host my pics on photobucket (it's free). they provide a link in several formats, one is for forums and it starts with like Percy said. i just paste that into the post. here's my favorite from yesterday :eek:
[spoiler][IMG]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p285/kmadcandy/ZYhutofDOOOOOOOOOOM.jpg
and get this ... i popped it with a scout i got from a hut 2 or 3 tiles away from somebody else's city. i saw the hut when i traded for his map, and he never popped it! so double miracle *giggle*. i think if you quote this post it'll show you what i pasted into the post actually to link it. photobucket's free and i haven't run into the limit yet, then again i don't play in public .[/spoiler]

 

[madscientist]

i host my pics on photobucket (it's free). they provide a link in several formats, one is for forums and it starts with like Percy said. i just paste that into the post. here's my favorite from yesterday :eek:
[spoiler][IMG]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p285/kmadcandy/ZYhutofDOOOOOOOOOOM.jpg
and get this ... i popped it with a scout i got from a hut 2 or 3 tiles away from somebody else's city. i saw the hut when i traded for his map, and he never popped it! so double miracle *giggle*. i think if you quote this post it'll show you what i pasted into the post actually to link it. photobucket's free and i haven't run into the limit yet, then again i don't play in public .[/spoiler]

O gotta agree. I am real slow at changing how I do things on a computer but I finally got a photobucket account and I can post like a pro now. I'll will make it easier on my older eyes here.

 

[Scaphism]

First of all, cool concept, I'm glad you're playing it out here.
I'd recommend ignoring Stonehenge, unless you're gaga over an early Great Prophet. I know a free Totem Pole in every city is tempting, but it's far from necessary.
I've been paying attention to the dates for Stonehenge and on Monarch, the AI seems to construct it by turn 50-55 (normal speed) every time. I believe that means turn 75-83 on Epic speed.

The Stone wonders to aim for are Great Wall, Pyramids, and Hanging Gardens. The Hanging Gardens in particular fit into your RP requirements. The happiness from representation will be important as well since you have only 2 early happy resources (gold and elephants). The two wonders have good synergy as well - since you'll have fewer developed tiles to work it makes a lot of sense to turn the extra pop from HG into a specialist (under representation).

The Great Wall is optional, but I really like it for Sitting Bull. You'll get a Great Spy out early, and if you don't want to use him against an AI you can settle him early and you'll basically never have to turn the espionage slider up. You should be able to passively spy on every civ you know early on. Double Great General points inside your borders would also fit nicely into your Roleplaying plan. You don't really need it for barb protection since you have a great resourceless early military, but since you are on your own continent you can probably afford to build fewer military units in the short term if you build the Great Wall.

 

[madscientist]

First of all, cool concept, I'm glad you're playing it out here.
I'd recommend ignoring Stonehenge, unless you're gaga over an early Great Prophet. I know a free Totem Pole in every city is tempting, but it's far from necessary.
I've been paying attention to the dates for Stonehenge and on Monarch, the AI seems to construct it by turn 50-55 (normal speed) every time. I believe that means turn 75-83 on Epic speed.

The Stone wonders to aim for are Great Wall, Pyramids, and Hanging Gardens. The Hanging Gardens in particular fit into your RP requirements. The happiness from representation will be important as well since you have only 2 early happy resources (gold and elephants). The two wonders have good synergy as well - since you'll have fewer developed tiles to work it makes a lot of sense to turn the extra pop from HG into a specialist (under representation).

The Great Wall is optional, but I really like it for Sitting Bull. You'll get a Great Spy out early, and if you don't want to use him against an AI you can settle him early and you'll basically never have to turn the espionage slider up. You should be able to passively spy on every civ you know early on. Double Great General points inside your borders would also fit nicely into your Roleplaying plan. You don't really need it for barb protection since you have a great resourceless early military, but since you are on your own continent you can probably afford to build fewer military units in the short term if you build the Great Wall.

I gotta agree about forgetting Stonehenge, and the great wall for that matter. Get the pyramids and the hanging gardens. Lock the capital into producing GEs and start popping wonders in other cities to get a good start on the cultural path. You are going to want the hag sophia in the capital too when available.

Also I would to get the oracle going in the second city so you can slingshot to metal casting and a forge in the capital to run the engineer specialist. I understand this is difficult considering chopping is not an option and would be secondary to the pyramids/hanging gardens.

 

[petey]

Do we have to lose 99% of our population to disease if we run into the Spanish? Because that would make it a little hard.

 

[slobberinbear]

Do we have to lose 99% of our population to disease if we run into the Spanish? Because that would make it a little hard.

That sounds like something out of Rhye's and Fall ...

As far as the wonders go, here's my dilemma:

Stonehenge: it gives me my unique building in every city, for free (giving culture and bonus XP to all archery units), and will generate Great Prophets, which will help me get a religion, build a shrine, and be settled for hammers and gold. It is also a very cheap wonder, especially with stone.

Great Wall: As I will have barbarian issues on this map, this is tempting. It is twice as expensive as Stonehenge, however (at least as of Warlords, not sure if this changed in BTS). But it would let me REX without having to build very many military units, and I'm sure we could have fun with the great spy.

Pyramids: This thing is expensive, even with stone. I estimate it taking 29 turns with Cawak at size 5 stagnating with maximum hammers. However, there is no doubt as to its power: combined with the four happy resources on the map, a religion and a temple in every city, and running Tribal Council (err, "Representation"), I will have a happy cap of 14 in Cawak and 13 everywhere else. Great Engineers are always welcome, too.

Oracle: I have no marble, but once Cawak is at its happy cap the Oracle can still be produced fairly quickly. It also produces the coveted Great Prophets and would let me slingshot to something fun like Theology, Feudalism, or Metal Casting. The Feudalism slingshot may be worth a run ... see if Justinian can deal with Drill III Longbows ...

Hanging Gardens: This would be a nice boon; the extra population and health would be a good boost for the slower-growing Native Americans. And it is a stone wonder. However, Mathematics is not on my radar at the moment.

Colossus: We don't know if I have copper yet, but it would be nice to have since most of my cities will be coastal. It's also relatively cheap if you have copper and even easier to produce since you have to have a forge to build it in the first place.

The problem is, obviously, I can realistically only build 1 or 2 of these and still build three cities in the BC (the two gold/FP sites plus the central sheep site).

If I could pull off Stonehenge and the Pyramids and build my first three cities while fending off barbarians, I would consider that a win. That would give me at least 8 GPP/turn (not counting specialists, if any) and likely allow me to found a religion and engineer-rush another wonder. By the way, I don't care too much about maintaining GP "purity." Since even artists can be used for a Golden Age, there are no bad great people.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever used a Pyramids engineer to build the Oracle? Is that even possible at Prince difficulty? That would let you slingshot a very nice tech ...

As far as national wonders go ...

National Epic: In Cawak. Since I'll be building wonders there, might as well get as many GPPs as possible.

National Park: Also in Cawak, which will be an absolute GP machine after I get Medicine.

Wall Street: if I wait to found a religion in city #2 (likely the gold/FP site to the southwest), then it would make a nice commerce city.

Heroic Epic: I'm looking at the city in the center of the continent with the sheep as a good production-oriented city. There may be a better site for this, though, after copper and iron appear.

Oxford: the gold/FP city to the far southwest, near Justinian, works for a research city.

 

[vixafox]

I think that it would be appropriate to pursue Stonehenge. It does seem to be a monument in keeping with the Native American ethos, far more so than the Great Wall.

 

[slobberinbear]

My knee-jerk reaction is to build Stonehenge, crank out three settlers, and then build the Pyramids. This gets Totem Poles everywhere and settles all the good cities ASAP while still getting the power of the Pyramids.

Or we could build the Great Wall instead of Stonehenge. I don't think we could get both. If we went this route, we could delay the military techs and shoot for a religion faster. I would be very tempted to get Sailing and send the great spy to Byzantium for infiltration.

Or we could simply build the Pyramids first, REX like a madman, and use the Great Engineer to pop whatever wonder is left for the taking.

 

[phurph]

Cool idea for a series Slobberin'!

Great Wall: As I will have barbarian issues on this map, this is tempting.

Not with Dog soldiers and super archers!

Pyramids:

Would be nice. As you said, maybe not worth it to build in capital. Maybe prioritize production city (sheep-wine) and build there (Incidentally, I would make sure this city is on river for levees and get the corn and ignore elephant tile. River tiles will be better than improved elephant anyway). I'd skip the 'Mounds unless you find time, since Philosophical by itself is dominant for a specialist approach. We should get commerce cities up first anyway.

Should also prioritize Caste System. Only useful labor civic! This will help take advantage of philo trait too.

Oracle: I have no marble, but once Cawak is at its happy cap the Oracle can still be produced fairly quickly. It also produces the coveted Great Prophets and would let me slingshot to something fun like Theology, Feudalism, or Metal Casting.

Don't forget CoL! Certainly not as sexy as Feudalism, but probably more useful unless you do attack Justin...

The problem is, obviously, I can realistically only build 1 or 2 of these and still build three cities in the BC (the two gold/FP sites plus the central sheep site).

I suggest pumping these cites out (with enough defensive units and workers) and then see if you have time for the wonders. None of the wonders are really needed. But what's needed right now is commerce.

Consider also, getting a lib in Cawak to run a couple scientists early to help teching and popping GS. Or get some building to run some specialists to take advantage of philo. You won't have a lot of improved tiles in that city, so maybe you'll want to hire specialists instead (Not much food there though ).

Anyway, get those four cities and move capital for bureau.

Good luck

 

[madscientist]

OK, here are some more thoughts.

1) Stonehenge. I see the chief benefit as the +1 culture and great prophet points. Totems in every city is great but are you going to be building archers in every city? You really just need 1 or 2 totems to get the advantage. Considering you are limited on building mines to the non-forrested ones, you may just want 1 city with a barracks and totem to continuously crank out military. Now on the other hand, you cannot chop or whip a totem in each new city and must build them for the culture boost. All this said, I go back on what I said in a previous post, you NEED stonehenge but not for the UB's ability, you need it for the culture. Founding a religion and spreading it at this point will take too long.

2) I say you need settlers pretty fast. The vampire AI you met loves to expand and I am sure he will be sending Galleys with settlers if possible. I cannot see the map well enough, is there a sliver of land between you to or is it water? Can he slip a galley past you WITHOUT open borders?

3) Great Wall. Is an unneccessary option. The early Great Spy is great, but otherwise you should not have a barb problem at Pirnce and you can deal with that by sending out a few units to fog bust.

4) Pyramids look like a good deal. Run representation and several specialists to leverage the philosphical trait.

5) I still agree with an earlier poster that the hanging gardens are big.

So in summary: Stonehenge, 2 settlers, pyramids, H. gardens. Tech mathematics before alphabet. Nothing so far seams to violate you native american rules.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Given that you have stone, and start with Fishing, why aren't you planning to make A Little Birdhouse in Your Soul?

 

[slobberinbear]

I can't hold myself back ... must .. play ... another .. round ...

Will post it tonight.

I don't know how Sisiutil can control himself ...

 

[Sisiutil]

An interesting concept. Should be fun. Frankly, I think you're going to fall woefully behind and receive a vigorous beating like Sitting Duck... er... Bull does in all my games, usually from me, but it'll be interesting to see you pull it off.

I mean, when I feel like doing some historical role-playing, I fire up Julius Caesar. "What a friendly civilization we have living next door. Let's conquer them."

Sitting Bull's UU and UB come early, so I'd say conflict with the Byzantines is inevitable. Once the continent is yours you can settle back and live harmoniously with nature. For now, though, hand your Dog Soldiers the talking stick and let them persuade the tribal elders that it is time to wear the war paint.

There. Now that I've offended any real Native American reading this, I'll go back to lurking.

Before I do, though: My secret for getting through the stretch between rounds when everyone else is debating and I'm waiting for the posts to play out is that I sometimes play an off-line game. However, sometimes that gets too involving and results into long stretches between updates...