[BtS] Tactical Nukes help!

[Aedivian]

I need some help, tactical nukes is completely ruining the game for me!

Here's my typical game (and the way I like to play), I play pangae with huge map
and around 14 AI's. I keep a low profile on the international scene until around
1940'ish. In the meanwhile I pick out potentional friends which can benefit me the
most, then forge strong relations and friendships, and most likely making a permanent
alliance with one of the strongest of my friends.

I then beef up my friends and allies thru the entire game, gifting them troops and
giving them all the techs I research so they have the cutting edge.

From time to time I do get involved in some minor conflicts and war with one of the
other power blocks. Instead of going to a war of conquest or get involved massively I
just attack and take a few cities around the globe which I will use later in the game
as military bases, leaving me with a military presence around the globe which I can
use for projecting power quickly. That way I dont rely on having open borders with others
to reach my enemies, with these military bases strategically surrounding my enemies I
can hit hard and fast from all directions.

So when 1940 comes and the fun starts for me, I have some bases around the globe, have
forged a strong alliance with
2-5 other nations, I will also have 1-2 clear defined enemy power blocks that has interest
conflicts with me. I put all my cities on pumping out tanks, mech infantry and gunships
like there is no tomorow, and put my coastal city on pumping out a massive fleet of carriers
and destroyers.

I then move my fleets close to enemy land and fill up my military bases with huge stacks.

At this point after building up my military power I rise to superpower status, usally ranked
between 1-3 on the power rating. But unlike the other powers, I'm capable of projecting
my power in devestating attacks all over the world. With my navy I blockade and carpet bomb
their land with my armada of carrier fighters and attack them hard from from ground thru
my military bases.

The problem arises when we get tactical nukes... I try my best to get the UN first
and vote so noone can have nuclear weapons, but it usally fails as some warmonger isnt
willing to give them up.

Now everything changes, my military bases, my fleets , my strategic advantages and my troops
doesnt matter at all anymore, they'd be crushed in seconds seeing as the AI's piles up
hundres of tactical nukes. They are cheap and extremely effective, way too effective!

ICMBs I can live with, they are very good but they come at a price. They are expensive
and can be countered with SDI and Bomb Shelters. But tactical nukes on the other hand I just
dont see how to deal with...

Last game I played a war erupted between my power block and the other major power block,
we both had 5 AI allies so it was 5vs5, (there was 3 un-allied powerfull nations outside
our two alliances), the first turn the war started nukes went off for about 15mins before
I got to my turn.

I looked on my power rating and I saw it had dropped by 70%, same applied to all the
10 nations in the war, power rating had shrunk to the bottom. The whole world was a
nuclear mess..

Everyone lost their entire military since they just got nuked the second they got in
range of the tactical nukes so noone could attack.

Tactial nukes just makes the game so frustrating. Once I saw a superpower with one of the biggest
armies I ever seen declare war on a tiny nation next to him, after 3 turns the superpower had the smallest
power rating in the world because the tiny nation had killed his entire massive army with tactical
nukes.. It's just to overpowered.

Is there anyway I can turn nukes off or atleast not make them so overpowered in the setting i play
my games?

 

[Matty R]

Going into the UnitInfos XML file and altering the iCost for ICBMs and Tactical Nukes to -1 (infinite) "should" mean they can't be built. I haven't tried it myself. I just set the GlobalInstance of the Manhattan Project to 0 so it can't be started by anyone.

There are various options for you in dealing with this.

 

[Ghpstage]

Now everything changes, my military bases, my fleets , my strategic advantages and my troops
doesnt matter at all anymore, they'd be crushed in seconds

Now you know how the Ruskies felt!

You can always adopt a different military strategy when nukes appear.

Highly mobile forces that can do damage before the AI can react are best.
The best and probably most effective example is using naval forces. Carriers allow you to soften up coastal city defenses from outside tac nuke range, and troops in transports can move in to take these cities withouit giving the AI the opportunity to intercept with nukes. Now obviously you won't be able to hold these cities, so raze them and as any troops at or near the city will almost certainly be killed the next turn you want to send as few as possible.

If any city has Uranium and is coastal it should be your first priority target, any well developed city is also a great target. Aim to do as much damage in the first turn as possible. If you bring your own nukes and plan the attack well you can force a 1 turn capitulation most of the time or even wipe an AI out completely in a single turn. Constant bombing or sabotaging non coastal Uranium resource is something you want to strongly consider too.

Also Corporation based empires are quite a lot more resistant to nuke wars than State Property ones. Corps provide cities benefits that don't rely on the cities tile which will help mitigate damage in case of a nuke strike and especially Global Warming.

If all else fails and you are one of the 2 civs eligible and liked enough for a UN diplo win, declaring on the other potential candidate for him to nuke you and get hated is a great way to end the game

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The way to beat nukes is your own nukes. The first civ to fire can easily prevent meaningful retaliation.

Rebase airships or other air into their land and scout every tile they own (it takes like 3-4 airships even for very large opponents). Nuke away their offensive stack, and nuke+capture any cities housing tactical nukes, ICBMs, or missile cruisers. If you can, disable its ability to construct more nukes by nuking, capturing, or air bombing its uranium and KEEPING it offline.

IF the AI puts any nukes on you at all, it won't be many, and if you have enough productive oomph to keep up the attack and bring in more nukage it is completely helpless.

 

[Aedivian]

The way to beat nukes is your own nukes. The first civ to fire can easily prevent meaningful retaliation.

Rebase airships or other air into their land and scout every tile they own (it takes like 3-4 airships even for very large opponents). Nuke away their offensive stack, and nuke+capture any cities housing tactical nukes, ICBMs, or missile cruisers. If you can, disable its ability to construct more nukes by nuking, capturing, or air bombing its uranium and KEEPING it offline.

IF the AI puts any nukes on you at all, it won't be many, and if you have enough productive oomph to keep up the attack and bring in more nukage it is completely helpless.

The thing is, I dont like to use nukes for various reasons. I feel it's cheating because they are too overpowered, and I dont like to use them because it will make my relation drop like a rock with the nations outside the war, which makes them more likely to join the the war on the enemies side.

But meh, I played a game where I had 80 submarines each filled with tactical nukes. I positioned them in wolf packs around the entire world and launched a devastating attack on all the 10 AI nations hitting them with all the 240 tactical nukes I had . 4 of the nations capitulated to me , and the rest gave me hefty good peace deals. I then buildt up my tactical nuke stocks agianst by the time the peace treaty had wore of, then I pounded the last 6 nations into submission till they gave up.

Too simple, too boring. I didnt even have many ground troops. Was a joke of a game.

The way I like to play is kinda roleplay a nation that is a medium power up into 1940+ then rise as a super power competing with a rival superpower to create a new world order (my order).

And like the USA has today, military bases all around the world, mostly circling in possible future advisaries and having their carrier fleet show their presence around nations they like to intimidate.

So I'm not really after scoring the most points, or wiping out enemies in a few turns with a completely devestating war. I'd like to use my fleet, ground troops and military bases that I have spendt lots of time on building up. I like loooong games, but the games gets boring if I just nuke away the enemies so they cant recover.

So it's best I just disable tactical nukes, not exactly sure how to do it tho. but hope it works, because those nukes really isnt fitting in my games and just make me abandon games that coulda been interesting and fun for me.

(on that sidenote, I've seen several of your Civ4 videos on youtube. Learning lots from them, you're a real good player!)

 

[r_rolo1]

The AI does not roleplay with nukes, they just do fire and forget to the better target in range of them . If you do roleplay with them , you do it at your own peril ...

P.S on the USA paralel you made. do you really think the US would do the whole carrier task forces + military bases if the nuclear powers in this world were perceived as being bent on using nukes as fire and forget shelling devices on t0 of conflict? Me neither ...

 

[Aedivian]

The AI does not roleplay with nukes, they just do fire and forget to the better target in range of them . If you do roleplay with them , you do it at your own peril ...

P.S on the USA paralel you made. do you really think the US would do the whole carrier task forces + military bases if the nuclear powers in this world were perceived as being bent on using nukes as fire and forget shelling devices on t0 of conflict? Me neither ...

I know the AI dont roleplay with his nukes, he fires of hundreds even at the first sign of conflict. That's not the way I like my games since it just obsoletes naval and military forces, it shouldnt just be about tactical nukes. Hence why I asked if there a possibility to turn of nukes option or remove them from game.

I'm totally fine with ICBM's tho, but the massive tactical nuke spammage in 20th century warfare is to massive in my games.

I had lots of really interesting games in Vanilla Civ4 and Warlords, those had ICBM's I believe but no tactical nukes, and that fit my gamestyle 100% .. Dont really want to go back to Vanilla tho since BTS got so many other fun features that vanilla doesnt.

 

[Sonereal]

I know the AI dont roleplay with his nukes, he fires of hundreds even at the first sign of conflict. That's not the way I like my games since it just obsoletes naval and military forces, it shouldnt just be about tactical nukes. Hence why I asked if there a possibility to turn of nukes option or remove them from game.

I'm totally fine with ICBM's tho, but the massive tactical nuke spammage in 20th century warfare is to massive in my games.

I had lots of really interesting games in Vanilla Civ4 and Warlords, those had ICBM's I believe but no tactical nukes, and that fit my gamestyle 100% .. Dont really want to go back to Vanilla tho since BTS got so many other fun features that vanilla doesnt.

Tactical nukes are nothing. If you spam ICBMs, the enemy will be unable to recover production loss for a while. It doesn't obsolete military forces in my game or naval forces; it just changes how things are played.

Gunships+paratroopers+nukes=free city. And submarines are just beast.

Besides, you can disable them with a NPT so it isn't like they're all powerful.

 

[s.bernbaum]

I just set the GlobalInstance of the Manhattan Project to 0 so it can't be started by anyone.

Which file is this in? I have hunted for it many times without finding it. I, too dislike having nukes in the game and would love to remove them this way!

Currently, I try to get UN before anyone has built the Manhattan Project and go for the no nukes vote. Usually, when done before the Manhattan Project is built, it works but not always.

 

[logarithm64]

The file is in Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4ProjectInfos.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Tactical nukes are nothing. If you spam ICBMs, the enemy will be unable to recover production loss for a while. It doesn't obsolete military forces in my game or naval forces; it just changes how things are played.

Gunships+paratroopers+nukes=free city. And submarines are just beast.

Besides, you can disable them with a NPT so it isn't like they're all powerful.

ICBMs cost way more than tac nukes and do exactly 0 extra damage. They only have a range advantage - which can cost-effectively be overcome in almost every case. Tac nuke evasion of SDI pushes their lead even further.

@OP - roleplay all you like, but if you don't want to lose to nukes, either prevent them from occurring or use them yourself. It's possible to get 1940's era military technology in the 1400's AD even on high levels, although I usually pick it up closer to 1700 AD when I'm trying.

I'm hard pressed to be convinced that nukes are materially easier than tanks+bombers vs rifles, or than marines+carriers+massed fighters/jet fighters vs anything. Nukes have their place in this game, but UN screw, SDI, threat of dogpiles, and simply being nuked back limits their potential to a degree. If you're able to produce 240 (!) tactical nukes like the OP supposedly had, you could also have things like ~400 infantry or tanks...or 300 infantry with arty support or 200 tanks with very heavy air support. These things generally beat the AI too ----> you say it's boring, you are likely below your level.

 

[Alki]

Now you know how the Ruskies felt!

This. The massed threat of tens of thousands of Russian tanks fouring over the German border is what prompted the US to develope tactical nukes in the first place.

 

[r_rolo1]

I know the AI dont roleplay with his nukes, he fires of hundreds even at the first sign of conflict. That's not the way I like my games since it just obsoletes naval and military forces, it shouldnt just be about tactical nukes. Hence why I asked if there a possibility to turn of nukes option or remove them from game.

I'm totally fine with ICBM's tho, but the massive tactical nuke spammage in 20th century warfare is to massive in my games.

I had lots of really interesting games in Vanilla Civ4 and Warlords, those had ICBM's I believe but no tactical nukes, and that fit my gamestyle 100% .. Dont really want to go back to Vanilla tho since BTS got so many other fun features that vanilla doesnt.

You are totally fine with ICBM not because of the cost , but because of a thing you probably don't know: AI ICBM do not target anything besides cities. A AI with ICBM will not use them to take a naval stack down or to clean a invader ... if they did you would like them exactly as much as you like tac nukes now.

About disabling tac nukes ... well, you can do what the first response to you said. But anyway, tactical nukes are exactly that: the game equivalent to those short distance nukes the US spammed in Germany and Turkey in the final decades of the Cold war, or the well known sub-based nukes. If a war stated and the American leadership thinked it was time to play with gloves off, the Russians would eat exactly the same as you are complaining of. It surely isn't fun for the receiver, but it is the target fault in the first place for putting a big army in target range of a enemy nuke shower ...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ the presence of nukes obsoletes big armies anyway. No reason to do that - nukes own everything and small stacks sweep up after.

 

[johnny111]

ICBMs cost way more than tac nukes and do exactly 0 extra damage. They only have a range advantage - which can cost-effectively be overcome in almost every case. Tac nuke evasion of SDI pushes their lead even further.

@OP - roleplay all you like, but if you don't want to lose to nukes, either prevent them from occurring or use them yourself. It's possible to get 1940's era military technology in the 1400's AD even on high levels, although I usually pick it up closer to 1700 AD when I'm trying.

I'm hard pressed to be convinced that nukes are materially easier than tanks+bombers vs rifles, or than marines+carriers+massed fighters/jet fighters vs anything. Nukes have their place in this game, but UN screw, SDI, threat of dogpiles, and simply being nuked back limits their potential to a degree. If you're able to produce 240 (!) tactical nukes like the OP supposedly had, you could also have things like ~400 infantry or tanks...or 300 infantry with arty support or 200 tanks with very heavy air support. These things generally beat the AI too ----> you say it's boring, you are likely below your level.

do tactical nukes instantly kill the entire stack of units or reduce em like ICBM?

 

[s.bernbaum]

The file is in Assets/XML/GameInfo/CIV4ProjectInfos.

Thanks!

 

[s.bernbaum]

do tactical nukes instantly kill the entire stack of units or reduce em like ICBM?

Based on my one experience getting my SoD nuked, the stack gets reduced and the survivors are damaged. However, that was only one missile. From the discussion above, it would appear that multiple strikes against the same stack can kill it off.

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

I've never really been in a situation where nukes become relevant, since my games tend to end before an A.I. bothers to research TMP (and obviously, I don't bother to research it either, since everyone loses in a nuke war).

Anyhow, there may be ways to win with less casualties still.

If you are charismatic, your leveling requirements are 4/8/13/20/28/38/... This translates to 13 experience points for level 5 and 20 experience points for level 6. I can't remember how much's needed for the equivalent for non-charismatic leaders (17 and 25 respectively?).

A West Point city with Pentagon built somewhere in your empire gives a base experience of: 4 + 3 + 2 = 9. So, you only need about 2 - 4 GG's merged with the city to generated 13 - 17 experience points. If you are aggressive, then you only need 13 - 17 experience points to get 5 promotions.

At this point, I think it's obvious what I am proposing... So, given 5 promotions, you can easily take 4 levels of strength and 1 level of commando. In a nuclear age, it is almost a given that every major power with tactical nukes have railroads spammed all over his/her empire. If you can produce an army of commandos, you can easily attack/raze a city and slip out of nuke range since a railroaded block only costs 0.1 movement and tactical nukes have a range of 4.

However, I haven't tried this trick and have never dealt with tactical nukes in any serious manner. So, there's a chance that what I proposed is completely non-viable.

 

[*Svart*]

one simple solution is avoiding SoD, just spread your army.

btw i never tried a nuclear war. Sometimes i build TMP, but i never experienced nuclear usage. I try to build it only if the enemies don't have researched yet fission. One question, they cannot build atomic bomb without fission or they can simply because i build TMP?

 

[ywhtptgtfo]

Nukes require a few things... namely Uranium, TMP, and Rocketry. If one of these things is missing, then no ICBM's and tactical nukes can be built. By researching TMP, you only unlock one of the pre-requisites. So... having the means to build a nuke doesn't mean you can turn it into a weapon without the right technology and resources.